NIGHTWISH ALBUM RANKING GAME: #1 REVEALED

[KidInTheDark666]

I don't really like Angels Fall First at all. It's one of my least favorite albums made by a band that I love. From AFF to Oceanborn is one of the greatest glow-ups in metal history.

 

[Sth2112]

Angels fall first have tons of debut album charm. I love the silly lyrics, heavy English accents, Tuomas not so good vocals, the cheap production. The obvious The 3rd and the mortal and Stratovarius influences. The first five tracks are pretty good. But compared to most of their stuff, it does not hold well enough

 

[Confeos]

"Elvenpath" and "Tutankhamen" are both great tunes; the rest I don't care much for. On the other hand, there isn't any song that I flat out dislike.

I would say that Angels Fall First definitely belongs in the bottom tier of the band's discography, yet I won't rank it dead last.

But despite its obvious shortcomings compared to the following albums, it is still a somewhat enjoyable ride - it has a lot of youthful charm, it's quite dynamic, and it feels alive - something I wish I could say about their latest output.

1: Only 1 (!) album was ranked both first place and last place by at least one member. Can you guess which album? This album was also one of only three that received a last place ranking at all.

2: Conversely, only 1 (!!) album was not ranked either first or last place. Can you guess that album?

Spoiler

1. Endless Forms Most Beautiful
2. Imaginaerum

 

[Diesel 11]

Alright now that it's been a couple of days...

1: Only 1 (!) album was ranked both first place and last place by at least one member. Can you guess which album? This album was also one of only three that received a last place ranking at all.

Spoiler

Imaginaerum?

2: Conversely, only 1 (!!) album was not ranked either first or last place. Can you guess that album?

Spoiler

This is so tough but Wishmaster?

 

[Mosh]

@MrKnickerbocker and @Confeos congratulations!


1: Only 1 (!) album was ranked both first place and last place by at least one member. Can you guess which album? This album was also one of only three that received a last place ranking at all.

The answer was Once, with only one last place ranking. The other two albums that received last place rankings were AFF and Human (unsurprisingly).

2: Conversely, only 1 (!!) album was not ranked either first or last place. Can you guess that album?

The answer was Imaginaerum, which seems like the album Maidenfans was most ambivalent about.

PM me 2 or 3 bands that you would like to see for future games (keep in mind that Metallica is on deck, otherwise I have no plans for future games currently).

 

[Mosh]

1:
2:
3:
4:
5:
6:
7:
8: Human :||: Nature
9: Angels Fall First

Highest score: 8 (@Onhell)
Lowest score: 1 (@Shmoolikipod @LooseCannon @The Dissident @Sth2112 @KiDDo @Mosh @JudasMyGuide @Confeos)

Like Angels Fall First in last place, Human :||: Nature being the next entry should come as a surprise to nobody. The album certainly has fans, likely bolstered by the band getting a bit of a popularity bump at least in the USA since Floor joined and many new fans coming on board recently as a result, but it's not hard to see why longtime Nightwish listeners were largely put off by this one.

First, lets talk about the disc long elephant in the room. I think when Nightwish announced that they were putting out a double album with an entire disc dedicated to orchestral music, people were rightfully skeptical. Nightwish, of course, has always been a symphonic Metal band, so the orchestral arrangements are a big part of their sound. But taking away the Metal element kinda defeats the purpose. I actually think there's a lot of pleasant music on the second disc, but it really does come off as background music a lot of the time. There's no tension, no rhythmic play, no dynamics, nothing unpredictable. It's like Tuomas doesn't know that orchestral music can actually be exciting too. Did he ever hear of Holst? Stravinsky? Beethoven?? It sounds good for walking around a theme park, but as standalone music it's pretty unremarkable. I just don't really understand why they didn't just flesh these orchestral parts out into full Nightwish songs other than Tuomas wanted to say he made an orchestral album.

Whatever you think of the second disc, you can easily ignore the it and get an ostensibly standard Nightwish album with the first disc. The problem though is that they didn't really go the "standard" Nightwish route on the first disc either. There isn't anything wrong with that inherently, but Nightwish is a fairly formulaic band and I think it's easy to alienate the fans when you move too far outside the direction you're known for. The main disc has a lot of interesting ideas on it, but the songs meander a lot and lack those iconic big Nightwish choruses. I think the orchestrations on the first disc are actually really good, but a lot of the songs severely lack the band's heaviness/punch. Too often it feels like the guitar is there as a backup instrument. I feel like if they were going to have a whole disc for orchestral music, they could have balanced it out with going all out on heaviness on the main disc. Or even just something more catchy, there isn't a single song to match the melodic power of songs like Elan or Edemah Ruh, to name just songs from the previous album.

I generally really dislike when people describe music as pretentious, but I think the criticism actually can apply to a lot of the lyrics on this album. I feel like this album is the music equivalent of those "I Fucking Love Science" type facebook pages that post memes of very rudimentary science facts that are easily digestible. So much "infinite beauty" "endless yarn" that just seems to boil down to the same basic concept that the band had already explored (and I use that word very loosely) on the previous album. It's like Tuomas read a synopsis on a Carl Sagan book and had an intellectual awakening as a result. I mean, having music based on natural sciences is interesting, but it literally feels like they have nothing of substance to say about any of it.

With all this in mind, I was actually sort of expecting this album to take the last place spot. It definitely had more last place rankings than Angels Fall First, but it also had a couple more defenders. As I said, this album does have its fans. But in listening to the two albums back to back, this feels more like a black sheep in the catalog to me than Angels. At least with that album you can hear the band molding into what they would become. Human feels more like a divergence from what you typically expect from Nightwish, and not a very good one.

 

[Sth2112]

Being a Nightwish fan since 2000/2001, I can easily say that the last album is Tuomas and Troy show, while the rest are basically hired musicians.

 

[MrKnickerbocker]

I also ranked this album second to last and for all the reasons you stated.

• Disc 2 is a throwaway.
• It's pretentious as hell.
• Marko is completely wasted on his final album with the band. Even his one solo lead vocal song is not good.
• Floor's power is completely wasted (again) as she spends most of the record fluttering through notes written for a stringed instrument.
• The catchiness is almost completely nonexistent.
• Troy gets a lead vocal and it stinks.

So, what's good about it? Well, I do think the first two tracks are solid, Pan and Tribal have some nice musical moments, and the use of three-part harmony on the vocals is really spectacular (except for the fact that Marko is quietest voice on every harmony).

Also, this album lead to this magnificent acoustic rendition of How's The Heart, which is superior to the bloated pretense of the album in every way:

 

[Diesel 11]

The second disc isn’t brilliant, but it’s definitely pleasant. I don’t think Tuomas intended to do more than that and so I don’t really need more than that.

 

[Diesel 11]

I know a lot of people got mad over this album but I still think it holds up. Yes, the lyrics are a bunch of sentimental nonsense, but in the right head space I can vibe with it. I really like the utilization of the three voices here, even though the mix should’ve been clearer and even though we really could’ve gotten more Marko. People wanna rag on Troy and while I’m skeptical about him replacing Marko, he’s great as a third vocalist, really adding some color behind the other two. Maybe I’m too misty-eyed but “Harvest” is a really sweet, stirring song.

“Music” is utterly gorgeous. Beautifully layered with a powerful chorus and awesome build up. “Shoemaker” mixes the keys and guitars with the drum rhythm to really make it feel like you’re blasting off into outer space, then when Floor does opera it sets you down on the moon in a big emotional fashion. “Endlessness” is epic and a tearful goodbye from Marko. If the album misses the big standouts it makes up for it with consistency. There really isn’t a bad song here and the song that even the naysayers like, “How’s the Heart?”, is honestly my least favorite.

I really don’t hear much of a divergence of sound but maybe that’s because I was also onboard for stuff like “Song of Myself” and “The Greatest Show on Earth”. To me this is a natural development that’s just a little more laid-back and allows itself to build more in layers than explode right in your speakers.

 

[KidInTheDark666]

I do quite like the CD1. The CD2 I haven't listened to at all since it came out. I had to put this down at #8 as the second disc is worthless, but tracks such as How's The Heart and Noise are pretty damn fine. Endlessness is a worthy goodbye track from Marco, but I agree that he was severely underutilized here.

 

[Confeos]

Before this game, I'd only listened to a few songs from Human :||: Nature and found them pretty unimpressive, but I thought I had give it a full spin in the name of fairness. And I gotta say, nothing changed from that initial assesment.

This album is so dull. Boring. Pedestrian. Aside from the chorus of "Noise" and the all-too short "Tribal", nothing stood out to me. I'm perfectly fine with artists sticking to their guns and making the music that one would expect of them, but Disc 1 is so generic. The lack of hooks really pains me, because I know Tuomas Holopainen can write some amazing, epic material, and what's more, he really used to write songs that got the very best out of his musicians. This album could've been written for any symphonic metal band out there.

Disc 2 is... Well, I listened to it, and I don't really see why I should ever put it on again.

The theme and lyrical content doesn't bother me much, though. We should be used to Tuomas being one of the most pretentious guys in music, so I don't mind.

It may be quite a harsh thing to say, but this just isn't the Nightwish I fell in love with. There is no denying that Angels Fall First is a very flawed album, but it still has a soul and a heart that H:||:N severely lacks, and that pushes the bands latest effort way to the bottom for me.

On a different note; I'm a lot more positive about the new single from their forthcoming album. I thought it had a bit of Dark Passion Play-vibe to it, and that's definitely a good thing. Time will tell if the rest of the album follows suit.

 

[Diesel 11]

On a different note; I'm a lot more positive about the new single from their forthcoming album. I thought it had a bit of Dark Passion Play-vibe to it, and that's definitely a good thing. Time will tell if the rest of the album follows suit.

See this is where I'm starting to wonder if I'm on a completely different wavelength than everyone else. I think "Perfume of the Timeless" is fine. It's good. But it doesn't have the same soul that I get from my favorite Nightwish songs or even Human. :||: Nature. as a whole. I don't feel like this is a step up, it's just another continuation with a little more pomp and mariachi than H/N. Maybe as part of the whole album it's really gonna blow me away, we'll see.

 

[Confeos]

See this is where I'm starting to wonder if I'm on a completely different wavelength than everyone else. I think "Perfume of the Timeless" is fine. It's good. But it doesn't have the same soul that I get from my favorite Nightwish songs or even Human. :||: Nature. as a whole. I don't feel like this is a step up, it's just another continuation with a little more pomp and mariachi than H/N. Maybe as part of the whole album it's really gonna blow me away, we'll see.

Oh, I don't think "Perfume of the Timeless" is a masterpiece by any means, and it's not even close to matching their very best material. Mind you, I've only listened to it once so far, but I found it more enjoyable than anything on H:||:N. So yeah, we still have to see about the album proper, but I can't help but feel a little more optimistic.

 

[Mosh]

I thought Perfume had quite a bit going for it, but there is a part of me that thinks Tuomas is going to continue getting further up his own ass with each new album. The biggest red flag to me on the single was Floor. It was like she might as well not even be there. It seems pretty clear that Tuomas doesn't want his vocalists leading the songs, which is a huge mistake imo.

really don’t hear much of a divergence of sound but maybe that’s because I was also onboard for stuff like “Song of Myself” and “The Greatest Show on Earth”. To me this is a natural development that’s just a little more laid-back and allows itself to build more in layers than explode right in your speakers.

Well, I agree with this. But in the case of the previous two albums, all that stuff was concentrated into the tracks you named. I was listening to Endless Forms and treating Greatest Show basically as a bonus track (near perfect 50ish minute album at that point). Human feels like if they made Greatest Show and Song of Myself into an entire album. I think you're right that it's a natural progression for them with that in mind, but it's also like if Iron Maiden made an entire album out of Empire of the Clouds. Like yea, logically it makes sense that they built off a song already in their catalog. But where's the acoustic Janick epic? Where's the Smith/Dickinson rocker? Where's the Harris epic? It just ends up feeling incomplete.

 

[Diesel 11]

I think you're right that it's a natural progression for them with that in mind, but it's also like if Iron Maiden made an entire album out of Empire of the Clouds.

I think this is a little hyperbolic. Sure, "Song of Myself" and "The Greatest Show on Earth" is where a lot of it is concentrated, but there are quite a number of songs that led us to this point as well. On Imaginaerum we have a slew of tracks which you can see the origins of Human. :||: Nature. emerging from. "The Crow, the Owl and the Dove" and "I Want My Tears Back" definitely pave the way for "Harvest". "Arabesque" and "Imaginaerum" are kind of a work in progress towards Disc 2. "Rest Calm" is the dirge structure that "Endlessness" stepped out of.

Moving on to Endless Forms Most Beautiful, "Tribal" is obviously the sequel to "Weak Fantasy", even if that's mostly down to the lyrics, although sonically you can see the heaviness of "Yours Is an Empty Hope" as being a sonic predecessor as well (especially with the harsh vocals). I think a lot of these songs foreshadow the more passive nature of H/N but just have different arrangements. "My Walden", "Élan", "Alpenglow", "Edema Ruh", "Our Decades in the Sun" - these are all far from bombastic songs, instead utilizing the vocalists and the instruments to build some really impressive layers that you can see Tuomas wanting to continue on the follow up. I don't 100% remember but I think that "Élan" and "My Walden" utilize three voice harmonies in their choruses too? "The Eyes of Sharbat Gula" is also another track that foreshadows "All the Works of Nature Which Adorn the World". The main riff in the album's title track is reused in "Noise" during the breakdown (and also in "The Greatest Show on Earth" during "Life"). And obviously the lyrics to that song are very similar to what "Procession" would do later on.

Now obviously a lot has been said about the vocal lines on Human. :||: Nature. being worse, Knick said it's like you're singing stuff written for the orchestra. I understand this 100% but I don't think this is the first time Tuomas has been a bad vocal line writer. Dark Passion Play has a bunch of shit that isn't exactly genius. "Whoever Brings the Night", "Sahara", "Bye Bye Beautiful", "Master Passion Greed", the choruses in "The Poet and the Pendulum" and "Eva" - and I dig these songs so don't think I'm being a critic. But if you look at the vocal lines on paper they're kinda trash, or at least as bad as anything on H/N.

I think you can go back to "Ghost Love Score" and its orchestral intermission, or even further back to Angels Fall First with a track like "Lappi", and see where Human. :||: Nature. evolved out of, at least to me anyway. There's always a discussion to be had about how elements were used in comparison to before but to me a lot of the elements have been present for a longer time than it seems other people see. I don't think that this is at all akin to Maiden doing a whole album like "Empire of the Clouds" because that song is an oddity in the discography - an oddity that still shares the same Maiden DNA with all the other tracks, but adds so many completely new elements that it still feels like it came out of nowhere.

H/N to me is an album that did not come out of nowhere, it naturally evolved from aspects that Tuomas had been toying with for a while and he just focused in on certain ones over others here. I also think that if you view an album like EFMB as a great 50 minute record with 30 extraneous minutes tacked on at the end, you may be boosting its image in your own eyes but you kind of miss Tuomas's own intentions with it. And yeah, as pretentious as he is an as pretentious as it may be, "The Greatest Show on Earth" is basically the Yggdrasil that both EFMB as a whole and H/N as a continuation are rooted in. So to me, this is where I think that H/N makes absolute sense as a record and especially as a continuation of their sound. To me it's just the obvious next move from them.

All that being said, by all means bring up any counterpoints you have because I'm still curious to understand what I'm missing that other people get. Even though your opinions all suck.

 

[Mosh]

I'll let others weigh in here first cause I don't want to hog the conversation, but let me clarify my Empire of the Clouds comparison because it isn't exactly a 1 to 1 comparison. I made the comparison because when you take out the song, Book of Souls functions as a standard 10 song Iron Maiden album (likely with a different sequence). Similarly, Imaginaerum and Endless Forms work fine without their closing epics. Empire is certainly more "out of nowhere" than the two Nightwish songs, but all three are similar in the sense that they take a few simple ideas and really zoom into them. In the case of Empire, it's a piano driven pseudo-ballad that is primarily built on storytelling. In the case of Greatest Show and SOM, it's orchestrations, ambience, and science mixed with philosophy (SOM slightly less so lyrically, although the themes of interconnectedness in humanity are there). I feel like Human :|| Nature blew those ideas up into 2 disc proportions. It often feels like the songs are playing background to this cinematic ambiance and orchestration, which I would argue historically was a trap that the band never really fell into. Yes there's still some typical Nightwish in there, more than a theoretical full Empire of the Clouds Maiden album, but it's just as one dimensional.

 

[JudasMyGuide]

Being a Nightwish fan since 2000/2001, I can easily say that the last album is Tuomas and Troy show, while the rest are basically hired musicians.

Another fan since the Wishmaster era, I second that.

Mosh is so much on point I wonder if I can add anything of substance, really.

The second disc is just a travesty - I don't mean that in a way that I wouldn't like certain parts and sections of it, but it's way too vapid even for a soundtrack (just compare it to Shore's LOTR work, Djawadi's GOT work, or even game soundtracks, like Witcher 3, from soft games, Ori etc.) and as a stand-alone "orchestral suite" it's just that - a travesty. I was actually hoping for more, in fact I in general expect the people who should know their classical shit to produce at least something of significance, but no - first Tuomas releases this classical for people who hate classical and then Turilli starts dabbling with semi-ambient/Einaudi stuff that also sounds like his entire classical education was in a Starbucks coffee house (and it wasn't, just listen to the excellent Rhapsody harmonic progressions!).

But time heals all wounds and I'm willing to let it pass as an obvious and - yes, like Mosh said - pretentious mistake, as a bonus disc of sorts. Whatever. It's probably better than having to edit their epic of the album to delete tens of minutes of intros/interludes/random elephant noises/pretentious Dawkins' quotes for it to be somewhat listenable, right?

However, the first disc is also kinda horrendous. I have nothing against major scales and re-reading even the first three books of Wheel of Time should be a proof enough that I don't have any hidden, irrational bias against naiveté, but Harvest is probably the worst track I've ever heard by a band that's somewhere in my Top 5-7 of bands. Words can't probably describe how much cringe that song is.

Also, I still think they stole the melody somewhere

Also, absolutely not connected, please help me!

Harvest - the vocal melody in the verse and probably in the chorus as well - what does it remind me of? I have a very strong sense of already heard there, I could swear it is if not lifted, then at least inspired by another, older song (not theirs)... any ideas, please?

(I probably don't mean Baba Yetu)

(And no, I don't mean Lost for Words either

)

I won't be mentioning the unbearable cringiness, preachiness etc. much, neither the lyrics nor the general image - that horse has been beaten to death.

Noise, while regurgitating older glories and being once again unbearably preachy, actually slaps, it's more or less the only song with some amount of vigour here and definitely the best one. Very catchy, pumped up, the message, while obnoxiously put, is actually relevant (although despite the title being metaphorical, I have issues with an overblown, bombastic band complaining about "Noise", much as I had issues with an even louder, more bombastic band preaching the importance of the "Essence of Silence", but I guess that's understandable).

Shoemaker sounds like the band is having some Epica-envy there, but despite it not really fitting the album and despite the lyrics thing that shall not be mentioned, it's also very good.

Music is also okay, although the intro could have been shortened (or, well, proportioned better against the rest of the song), and there are some cool moments in Tribal (though I still like Master Passion Greed more) and How's the Heart (although despite being very much for Celtic influences, I kinda wish they toned it down with that), but the album as a whole is terribly underwhelming.

And... yeah, sorry, over the past nine years I think I've definitely acquired an allergy to Floor. Not just because she doesn't fit the older songs (still love my wifey's assessment towards Amaranth "her replacing Anette on this song, it sounds like replacing a butterfly with a bulldozer"), not just because she is the "face" and the one voicing the terrible, self-indulgent, pretentious, preachy lyrics, but in general. I just don't want to hear her inflections, her timbre, I'm tired of Floor. Sorry. But I still don't think there's anyone else besides Tuomas to blame.

 

[MrKnickerbocker]

And... yeah, sorry, over the past nine years I think I've definitely acquired an allergy to Floor. Not just because she doesn't fit the older songs (still love my wifey's assessment towards Amaranth "her replacing Anette on this song, it sounds like replacing a butterfly with a bulldozer"), not just because she is the "face" and the one voicing the terrible, self-indulgent, pretentious, preachy lyrics, but in general. I just don't want to hear her inflections, her timbre, I'm tired of Floor. Sorry.

You can kindly GTFO, good sir.

But I still don't think there's anyone else besides Tuomas to blame.

Accurate.

 

[Shmoolikipod]

Ranking the bottom half was hardest. H/N was going to be #6 or #7, but at the last minute I had an epiphany: I don't give two shits about almost anything here. Noise is a powerhouse, the lone great song here. The songs all have their schticks. But like @Confeos said, it's pedestrian. Cool rhythm in the verse of Shoemaker, and that's it. Harvest has a memorable chorus. But what else? I tried to give the albums an equal amount of listens, H/N wasn't gimped here, yet it's the only album where I can't recall more than one section from most songs. The only two songs I remember in their entirety are Pan, which is the best song until it turns oompa loompa, and Tribal, which is as meh as it gets. What's a Procession? Endlessness? It's called Higher Than Hope, you probably missed it because for some reason Ghost Love Score isn't the closing track on Once. Like others said, there's a severe lack of catchiness and good lyrics. And to think I almost put this above AFF. Nymphomaniac Fantasia, now that's catchiness and good lyrics!
Can't forget All the Works. I'm not rushing to hear it ever again, but I don't mind it. You know what, it has a long title, but it's only a little pretentious considering the piece is like a slideshow with stock photos of trees and mountains.