Montsegur
- Thread starter LooseCannon
- Start date
A
Anonymous
Guest
'montsegur'
Now you can read other visitors' comments on 'Montsegur' as well as post your own. Any contribution to the commentary will be much appreciated, may it be cultural references relevant to the song (links to related websites, interpretations that may have been overlooked in the Commentary, and the like) or personal essays related to the topic of the song. Just be aware that messages that are either off-topic or too wacky may be deleted.
Now you can read other visitors' comments on 'Montsegur' as well as post your own. Any contribution to the commentary will be much appreciated, may it be cultural references relevant to the song (links to related websites, interpretations that may have been overlooked in the Commentary, and the like) or personal essays related to the topic of the song. Just be aware that messages that are either off-topic or too wacky may be deleted.
Atvarussmak
Trooper
'montsegur'
I found this good site on the Cathars and The Templars. if anybody is interessted.
[a href=\'http://www.nullens.org/cathars\' target=\'_blank\']http://www.nullens.org/cathars[/a]
I found this good site on the Cathars and The Templars. if anybody is interessted.
[a href=\'http://www.nullens.org/cathars\' target=\'_blank\']http://www.nullens.org/cathars[/a]
A
Anonymous
Guest
'montsegur'
[a href=\'http://members.tripod.com/montsegur002/\' target=\'_blank\']http://members.tripod.com/montsegur002/[/a]
Sounds good, but it'll probably never work [!--emo&
--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/sad.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'sad.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
[a href=\'http://members.tripod.com/montsegur002/\' target=\'_blank\']http://members.tripod.com/montsegur002/[/a]
Sounds good, but it'll probably never work [!--emo&
--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/sad.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'sad.gif\' /][!--endemo--]Lobo_bassplayer
Invader
'montsegur'
hello everyone
I love maiden songs that relate to historic events like alexander the great and others included Montsegur.
I didnt know about Cathars until I heard the song and felt like searching in the net what they were about. Hearing the song made me want to know more about it.
After reading most of the posts I can only say that everyone has its opinion about it and what I like is that are interested in expressing our opinion and trying to understand each other.
I love Maiden for that. If you can name another Heavy Metal band that sparks this kind of passion for knowlegde, please let me know.
Right know I'm reading about the templars and their story, and also have found other books about Cathars themselves.
Cheers and Rock on
hello everyone
I love maiden songs that relate to historic events like alexander the great and others included Montsegur.
I didnt know about Cathars until I heard the song and felt like searching in the net what they were about. Hearing the song made me want to know more about it.
After reading most of the posts I can only say that everyone has its opinion about it and what I like is that are interested in expressing our opinion and trying to understand each other.
I love Maiden for that. If you can name another Heavy Metal band that sparks this kind of passion for knowlegde, please let me know.
Right know I'm reading about the templars and their story, and also have found other books about Cathars themselves.
Cheers and Rock on
Lobo_bassplayer
Invader
'montsegur'
[!--QuoteBegin-Perun+Jun 30 2004, 06:13 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Perun @ Jun 30 2004, 06:13 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--][a href=\'http://members.tripod.com/montsegur002/\' target=\'_blank\']http://members.tripod.com/montsegur002/[/a]
Sounds good, but it'll probably never work [!--emo&--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/sad.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'sad.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
Why not? If you read more about it I think they are like creating a critical mass. As every process in nature when critical mass is reached the process starts and grows and develop. Thus I will try to be part of that critical mass.
Cheers and rock on
[!--QuoteBegin-Perun+Jun 30 2004, 06:13 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Perun @ Jun 30 2004, 06:13 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--][a href=\'http://members.tripod.com/montsegur002/\' target=\'_blank\']http://members.tripod.com/montsegur002/[/a]
Sounds good, but it'll probably never work [!--emo&
--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/sad.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'sad.gif\' /][!--endemo--][snapback]75976[/snapback]
[/quote]Why not? If you read more about it I think they are like creating a critical mass. As every process in nature when critical mass is reached the process starts and grows and develop. Thus I will try to be part of that critical mass.
Cheers and rock on
dogigniter
Ancient Mariner
'montsegur'
[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Montseger was a christian sect very fanatical that isolated themselves in a castle they believed in some very disturbed beliefs.[/quote]
I would argue with the above quote, but there's no way I'd have enough evidence, so I'll give a summary of the people of Montsegur.
The church has either described the practices performed and the beliefs believed in as 'Pagan' or 'Heretic' (al. Herecy).
The people performing these practices and supporting these beliefs were known as 'Heretics' or if they were of poor status, 'Beghards' a word basically meaning 'Pagan Peasant'.
The Cathars were seen as 'Heretics' by the church, but most likely not for 'Pagan' practices, but because the Cathars had an ultimate goal to cleanse the church of its corupt and evil elements, and start a different sort of catholicisism. This, I believe is part of why the Cathars were so besieged, and later slaughtered.
The kingdom of Astarac, the fief of which belonged to a Cathar, has always been rumoured to have been the keepers of the Grail around that time. Most believe it was lost after Montsegur. The Count of Astarac was supposedly at Monsegur, therefore in my reckoning it is quite possible that the church also besieged the Cathars because they could sense that the Grail was within their grasp. This would have been a secondary objective of the crusades. Of course this is entirely speculative, but its certainly possible.
P.S. Haven't been in the commentary for a while, still going nicely
[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Montseger was a christian sect very fanatical that isolated themselves in a castle they believed in some very disturbed beliefs.[/quote]
I would argue with the above quote, but there's no way I'd have enough evidence, so I'll give a summary of the people of Montsegur.
The church has either described the practices performed and the beliefs believed in as 'Pagan' or 'Heretic' (al. Herecy).
The people performing these practices and supporting these beliefs were known as 'Heretics' or if they were of poor status, 'Beghards' a word basically meaning 'Pagan Peasant'.
The Cathars were seen as 'Heretics' by the church, but most likely not for 'Pagan' practices, but because the Cathars had an ultimate goal to cleanse the church of its corupt and evil elements, and start a different sort of catholicisism. This, I believe is part of why the Cathars were so besieged, and later slaughtered.
The kingdom of Astarac, the fief of which belonged to a Cathar, has always been rumoured to have been the keepers of the Grail around that time. Most believe it was lost after Montsegur. The Count of Astarac was supposedly at Monsegur, therefore in my reckoning it is quite possible that the church also besieged the Cathars because they could sense that the Grail was within their grasp. This would have been a secondary objective of the crusades. Of course this is entirely speculative, but its certainly possible.
P.S. Haven't been in the commentary for a while, still going nicely
A
Anonymous
Guest
'montsegur'
If you want to know more about the Cathars, why don't you check out [a href=\'http://www.maidenfans.com/imc/?url=album13_dod/montsegur&lang=eng&link=albums\' target=\'_blank\']this link[/a] or even [a href=\'http://www.maidenfans.com/imc/?url=album13_dod/rottencathars&lang=eng&link=albums\' target=\'_blank\']this one[/a]? [!--emo&^_^--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/happy.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'happy.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
If you want to know more about the Cathars, why don't you check out [a href=\'http://www.maidenfans.com/imc/?url=album13_dod/montsegur&lang=eng&link=albums\' target=\'_blank\']this link[/a] or even [a href=\'http://www.maidenfans.com/imc/?url=album13_dod/rottencathars&lang=eng&link=albums\' target=\'_blank\']this one[/a]? [!--emo&^_^--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/happy.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'happy.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
dogigniter
Ancient Mariner
'montsegur'
Once again Mav, the amount of research you put in is just silly! [!--emo&
--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
Note: My previous post was made knowing none of that information, and was made linking events and other things from various books which touch upon Montsegur
Once again Mav, the amount of research you put in is just silly! [!--emo&
--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--] Note: My previous post was made knowing none of that information, and was made linking events and other things from various books which touch upon Montsegur
'montsegur'
I haven't looked at this thread in a while, so please forgive me if what I'm about to post was already mentioned elsewhere...
Among the believers in Holy Grail theories, many have alleged that:
a) The Cathars were in posession of the Grail before the Catholic Church attacked Montsegur.
[!--emo&
--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/cool.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'cool.gif\' /][!--endemo--] The Grail is not simply the cup of Christ, but actually some sort of substantial treasure hoard which may or may not include the cup of Christ.
Believers in these theories have charged that the Cathars popularity and dominance in their region resulted from posession of this treasure, and that the real motive of the Church was to capture this treasure. These people state that the Church only used the charge of "heresy" as a public relations tool to justify their attack. After all, similar things have been known to happen (like bush* talking about WMDs while the first thing he had the US army do was take over the Iraqi oil fields on the first day of the invasion).
Alternatively, there are Grail theorists who state that the Grail is actually documentary evidence that Jesus and Mary Magdalene had descendants who ought to be the rightful kings of France. (If you've read The Da Vinci Code, these theories were a large part of the backstory of that book.) If such evidence really existed, then it could embarrass the Church by contradicting the Church's teachings. So again, it is alleged that the Church attacked in order to destroy this evidence. Most people who adhere to this theory claim the evidence was snuck out of Montsegur under cover of darkness. These people fail to explain how the smugglers got past the siege at the base of the mountain, but then again, truth is not the strong point of these conspiracy theorists.
I am not saying that any of the above is true. I'm simply noting that these charges have been made by fringe elements. Personally, I find it conceivable that the Church did in fact have ulterior motives in attacking the Cathars, and that they did use heresy as a mere excuse. After all, the Cathars were the dominant religious force for miles and miles around Montsegur, and the Church has never tolerated rivals well. But even if this was true at the time, it seems there's no hard evidence for it today, so in the end all we've got is the official story (written by the winners like all history) and some vague suspicions that there might have been more to it.
I haven't looked at this thread in a while, so please forgive me if what I'm about to post was already mentioned elsewhere...
Among the believers in Holy Grail theories, many have alleged that:
a) The Cathars were in posession of the Grail before the Catholic Church attacked Montsegur.
[!--emo&
--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/cool.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'cool.gif\' /][!--endemo--] The Grail is not simply the cup of Christ, but actually some sort of substantial treasure hoard which may or may not include the cup of Christ.Believers in these theories have charged that the Cathars popularity and dominance in their region resulted from posession of this treasure, and that the real motive of the Church was to capture this treasure. These people state that the Church only used the charge of "heresy" as a public relations tool to justify their attack. After all, similar things have been known to happen (like bush* talking about WMDs while the first thing he had the US army do was take over the Iraqi oil fields on the first day of the invasion).
Alternatively, there are Grail theorists who state that the Grail is actually documentary evidence that Jesus and Mary Magdalene had descendants who ought to be the rightful kings of France. (If you've read The Da Vinci Code, these theories were a large part of the backstory of that book.) If such evidence really existed, then it could embarrass the Church by contradicting the Church's teachings. So again, it is alleged that the Church attacked in order to destroy this evidence. Most people who adhere to this theory claim the evidence was snuck out of Montsegur under cover of darkness. These people fail to explain how the smugglers got past the siege at the base of the mountain, but then again, truth is not the strong point of these conspiracy theorists.
I am not saying that any of the above is true. I'm simply noting that these charges have been made by fringe elements. Personally, I find it conceivable that the Church did in fact have ulterior motives in attacking the Cathars, and that they did use heresy as a mere excuse. After all, the Cathars were the dominant religious force for miles and miles around Montsegur, and the Church has never tolerated rivals well. But even if this was true at the time, it seems there's no hard evidence for it today, so in the end all we've got is the official story (written by the winners like all history) and some vague suspicions that there might have been more to it.
Onhell
Infinite Dreamer
'montsegur'
Well I present to you all my research paper on the Cathars for my Medieval Europe class. I chose to focus on the beliefs more than on the politics. The main focus of the paper is how Heresy helps shape Orthodoxy. If it seems hurried... it was I wrote in a week (having over 6 months to do it [!--emo&--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]) I turned it in today and won't get it back until next week so I'm kinda going out on a limb here posting it before knowing if I screwed up royally or otherwise. So ENJOY!
The Cathars: A Case of Heresy Helping Define Orthodoxy
Table of Contents
Introduction
I. Dualist origins
II. Cathar Beliefs
a. Bogomil influence
b. Original doctrine
III. Catholic Reaction
a. The Albigensian Crusade
b. Dominicans and Franciscans
c. Fourth Lateran Council
Conclusion
Orthodoxy cannot exist without heresy. One cannot know what is right unless it is clear what is wrong. “The subject is two sided. It takes two to create a heresy: the heretic, with his dissident beliefs and practices; and the Church to condemn his views and to define what is orthodox doctrine.” (Lambert, 5) Christianity has had to deal with heresy since it's inception as the official religion of the Roman Empire. In the 13th century the Church had to deal with several dualist heresies the most notable being Catharism. Catharism helped establish and solidify orthodox Catholicism in Western Europe by challenging the Church.
Dualism is a very old worldview originating in what is today known as Iran dating as far back as 1700 B.C to 600 B.C. with the teachings of Zoroaster. In Dualist thought, the universe is the outcome and the battleground of two principles, good and evil or light and darkness. (Stoyanov 2) In Zoroastrianism, the physical world is in essence a “Good Creation' and, although assaulted by evil, sin and death, it is designed to bring about the ultimate destruction of the evil agency. Conversely, anti-cosmic dualism equated the physical world, the body and matter with evil, delusion and darkness, which are conceived as totally opposed to the spiritual realm, soul and light.
Zoroaster preached about two twin Spirits, Spenta Mainyu ('beneficent' or 'Holy spirit' and Angra Mainyu ('hostile or 'destructive spirit'). Ahura Mazda (Wise Lord) gave birth to both. Ahura Mazda is the ultimate never-born Good creator and the only worthy of worship. The twin spirits established life and death and engaged in an eternal struggle between truth and untruth, which is the bases of ethical Zoroastrianism. (Stoyanov, 7)
Angra Mainya chose to do evil and to oppose Ahura Mazda's good creation and the antagonism is irreconcilable. Angra's 'wrong choice' to do the 'worst things' is responsible for evil in the world. (Stoyanov 8) Later Ahura Mazda was not made responsible for the evil presence in the world and the twin spirits were made the complementary forces of maintenance and destruction, the opposite poles of Mazda's power. Evil is the source of Angra's untruth yet is destined to be defeated by Mazda at the end of historical time. (Stoyanov, 9)
Zoroaster's dualism was the blue print for all other dualist movements to come. All other movements adopted and built upon Zoroaster's ideas finally reaching Byzantium in the form of Manichean thought. Bogomilism based itself on Manichean thought (Stoyanov, 130) and also made it's way to Byzantium where French Crusaders brought it back to western Europe where the seeds of Catharism were planted.
Bogomilism heavily influenced the Cathars, who primarily settled in northern Italy and southern France. Bogomil was a tenth century Bulgarian priest that gave shape to the dualist ideas. He gave voice to the oppressed peasantry and his ideas quickly spread to Byzantium. His dualist teachings explained that all that is seen is evil, even flesh is the creation of the fallen angel Satan given to evil. All that is unseen is spiritual. Bogomil monks lived an extremely ascetic life, “eschewing eggs, milk, cheese, meat, all the products of coition, remaining celibate and fasting ruthlessly.” (Lambert, 63) Sympathizers venerated the initiates and would listen to their preaching but did not have to undergo the extreme ascetics of rejecting products of coition, marriage or parenthood. (Lambert, 63)
In 1143-4 Everwin of Steinfled reported the first outbreak of Catharism to St. Bernard of Clairvaux, telling him that in Cologne a group was detected that was well organized. There were three ranks- auditors, believers and elect. Believers became part of the elect by a ceremony of laying-on of hands and a probation period. They consecrated their meals with the Pater Noster and refused to consume any product of coition and rejected marriage. (Lambert, 62) Furthermore, the Cathars believed,
Spiritual beings, imprisoned in base matter, are purified in a cycle of rebirths. The Son is
the most perfect of created angels and is specially adopted by the Father; the Holy Spirit
is the aeon who is in charge of the celestial spirits who minister to the divine spark in man.
Christ only appeared to be man and neither died nor was resurrected. The New Testament
is the work of God the Old that of the Evil One. (Brown, 257)
The relationship between the Son and the Father is reminiscent of that between Spenta Mainyu and Ahura Mazda in Zoroastrianism, where the never-born Father creates both Jesus and Satan (the Evil One) and is clearly superior to both. The church reacted swiftly and decisively to get rid of the heresy in two ways, through force and persuasion. Innocent called the Albigensian Crusade against the Cathars to forcefully get rid of the heresy, but he also acknowledged and encouraged two new orders, The Dominicans and the Franciscans, to preach to the heretics and bring them back to the orthodox fold.
The single most important issue of the Albigensian Crusade was the Church's realization that it was not fulfilling the people's spiritual needs. The Cathars were just one of several poverty movements that renounced worldly possessions and criticized the Church's wealth. The fact that they differed on the subject of Christ with the Catholics wasn't as important as the fact that their message of simplicity was highly popular with the masses.
The technical definition of a crusade is: an armed expedition against the enemies of Christendom under papal leadership, which will bring the participants spiritual rewards and it is performed for the good of Christendom. Earlier Crusades fulfilled each requirement for example in the first Crusade urban II organized and sent the expedition promising spiritual rewards to the participants and of course it was for the good of Christendom because they were fighting the Muslim infidels.
In the same vein the Albigensian Crusade was a crusade as it fulfills the requirements set forth by the definition. It was led under the leadership of Pope innocent III, he promised spiritual rewards to those willing to participate in the armed expedition against the Cathars. Robert of Wendover made this clear when he wrote,
Pope innocent was greatly grieved at hearing theses things, and he immediately sent
preachers into all the districts of the west, and enjoined to the chiefs and other Christian
people as a remission of their sins, that they should take the sign of the cross for the
extirpation of this plague. (Peters, 26)
In this case, however, the enemies of Christendom were other Christians with different beliefs from Catholics. The focus on the enemies of Christendom went from being the Muslim infidels to Christian heretics. Innocent had already decreed to send out emissaries to preach and bring people back into the Catholic fold, for example Barber tells us, “During the twelfth century, therefore, the Church tried to isolate the disease by excommunication and anathema, using the church councils as its vehicle for condemnation. This was accompanied by a determined campaign of persuasion.” (Barber, 173) Yet the Cathari murdered one of these emissaries, Peter of Castelnau and that was when Innocent had had enough and called a Crusade against the Cathars. (Barber, 173)
Catholicism wasn't simply losing congregants they were losing power. This is made obvious in the fact that many of the nobles that answered the call of crusade only served long enough to gain material possessions or for as long as they had been contracted, “Henry, count of Champagne came to [Louis the French King], having been employed forty days in the siege and… asked leave to return home, and on the king's refusing his permission, he said that having served his forty days of duty he was not bound to, nor would he, stay any longer.” (Peters 33) Though they successfully diminished the Cathars' power and numbers, the Crusade itself did little to exterminate heresy in southern France.
Preaching proved to be more effective and have a longer lasting effect. In 1206 the Castilian bishop Diego of Osma and his subprior Dominic decided to preach on poverty in terms of equality to the Cathars. Diego died shortly after their preaching campaign had begun, but Dominic carried on preaching and living an exemplary apostolic life. (Lambert 103-4) Francis of Assisi also asked Innocent to approve his lifestyle of extreme poverty and gospel based preaching especially focusing on the sending of the Seventy. (Lambert 104) While the Dominicans engaged in preaching and debating with the heretics, the Franciscans may focus was their preaching by example. The Franciscans extreme poverty, preaching of the sending of the Seventy and religious fervor was similar to that of the Cathars, however they, unlike the Cathars, vowed obedience to the pope and were key in demonstrating the Church could still offer a less worldly way of life. The Struggle with the Cathars culminated in the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215 in which the Orthodox faith was reaffirmed, plans on how to deal with heresy were laid out as well as the ground work for a fifth crusade.
Just like the council at Nicaea was put together to deal with opposing factions and in the end branding Arianism as a heresy, the Fourth Lateran Council was primarily formed to deal with the Cathars. The Nicaean Council was the first to officially formulate what Christians believe. The belief in one God, the two natures of Christ and the anathema of Arian beliefs were professed. (Tanner, 5)
The phrase, “consubstantial with the Father,” was one of the key theological aspects from which not only Arianism, but also subsequent heresies would deviate from orthodox belief. Just like the Nicaean Creed was a response to Arianism the profession of faith in the Fourth Lateran Council was a direct response to Catharism, professing, the unity of the Trinity and the Equality of the Father Son and holy Spirit, Jesus' two natures, the importance of the old Testament and God as creator of both the spiritual and physical world.
We firmly believe and simply confess that there is only on true God, eternal and
Immeasurable, almighty, unchangeable, incomprehensible and ineffable, father, Son and
Holy Spirit, three persons but one absolutely simple essence, substance or nature…
consubstantial, coequal, co-omnipotent and coeternal; one principle of all things, creator
of all things invisible and visible, spiritual and corporal… This Holy Trinity… gave the
teaching of salvation to the human race through Moses and the holy prophets…Jesus
Christ… one person two natures (Tanner, 230)
This is a direct response to the Cathar beliefs that Christ wasn't human, that the physical world is evil because it is Satan's creation, that the Old Testament is the work of Satan and that Jesus is subordinate to the Father. The last declarations in the first canon of the council are that there is only one universal Church and only through it can one be saved and that baptism is consecrated in water. These last two send the message that all who are not Catholic, in other words the Cathars, will not be saved and to reinforce that baptism is through water, not fire like believed by the Cathars.
In the third Canon, or Constitution, the council decrees what will be done with heretics. Heretics will be excommunicated and handed over to the authorities. If they have been excommunicated for a year and they haven't repented they will be branded heretics. If someone is suspected of heresy they will be interrogated to clear up the suspicions. A series of interrogations and involving of the local authorities are involved to deliver punishments, laying the groundwork of what will later become the Inquisition.
We excommunicate and anathematize every heresy raising itself up against this holy,
orthodox and catholic faith which we have expounded above. We condemn all heretics,
whatever names they may go under…Let those condemned be handed over to the secular
authorities present, or to their bailiffs, for due punishment. Clerics are first to be degraded
from their orders. The goods of the condemned are to be confiscated…let secular
authorities, whatever offices they may be discharging, be advised and urged and if
necessary be compelled by ecclesiastical censure… (Tanner, 233)
This was key to identify and define “orthodox” belief, once stating what orthodoxy was by refuting the Cathars everything that didn't fit under that definition automatically became a heresy. Being the most prominent poverty movement, the Cathars forced the Catholic Church to revise and to some extent reform itself. It made the Church respond by patronizing poverty groups of their own in the Franciscans and the not so famous Humiliati, launching a crusade, putting together a council focused almost exclusively on how to deal with heresy and professing “orthodox” faith and by creating the Inquisition, a body who's sole purpose was to seek and deal with “heretics”. Therefore the biggest deed by the Cathar “heresy” was help define Catholic “orthodoxy”.
Well I present to you all my research paper on the Cathars for my Medieval Europe class. I chose to focus on the beliefs more than on the politics. The main focus of the paper is how Heresy helps shape Orthodoxy. If it seems hurried... it was I wrote in a week (having over 6 months to do it [!--emo&
--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]) I turned it in today and won't get it back until next week so I'm kinda going out on a limb here posting it before knowing if I screwed up royally or otherwise. So ENJOY!The Cathars: A Case of Heresy Helping Define Orthodoxy
Table of Contents
Introduction
I. Dualist origins
II. Cathar Beliefs
a. Bogomil influence
b. Original doctrine
III. Catholic Reaction
a. The Albigensian Crusade
b. Dominicans and Franciscans
c. Fourth Lateran Council
Conclusion
Orthodoxy cannot exist without heresy. One cannot know what is right unless it is clear what is wrong. “The subject is two sided. It takes two to create a heresy: the heretic, with his dissident beliefs and practices; and the Church to condemn his views and to define what is orthodox doctrine.” (Lambert, 5) Christianity has had to deal with heresy since it's inception as the official religion of the Roman Empire. In the 13th century the Church had to deal with several dualist heresies the most notable being Catharism. Catharism helped establish and solidify orthodox Catholicism in Western Europe by challenging the Church.
Dualism is a very old worldview originating in what is today known as Iran dating as far back as 1700 B.C to 600 B.C. with the teachings of Zoroaster. In Dualist thought, the universe is the outcome and the battleground of two principles, good and evil or light and darkness. (Stoyanov 2) In Zoroastrianism, the physical world is in essence a “Good Creation' and, although assaulted by evil, sin and death, it is designed to bring about the ultimate destruction of the evil agency. Conversely, anti-cosmic dualism equated the physical world, the body and matter with evil, delusion and darkness, which are conceived as totally opposed to the spiritual realm, soul and light.
Zoroaster preached about two twin Spirits, Spenta Mainyu ('beneficent' or 'Holy spirit' and Angra Mainyu ('hostile or 'destructive spirit'). Ahura Mazda (Wise Lord) gave birth to both. Ahura Mazda is the ultimate never-born Good creator and the only worthy of worship. The twin spirits established life and death and engaged in an eternal struggle between truth and untruth, which is the bases of ethical Zoroastrianism. (Stoyanov, 7)
Angra Mainya chose to do evil and to oppose Ahura Mazda's good creation and the antagonism is irreconcilable. Angra's 'wrong choice' to do the 'worst things' is responsible for evil in the world. (Stoyanov 8) Later Ahura Mazda was not made responsible for the evil presence in the world and the twin spirits were made the complementary forces of maintenance and destruction, the opposite poles of Mazda's power. Evil is the source of Angra's untruth yet is destined to be defeated by Mazda at the end of historical time. (Stoyanov, 9)
Zoroaster's dualism was the blue print for all other dualist movements to come. All other movements adopted and built upon Zoroaster's ideas finally reaching Byzantium in the form of Manichean thought. Bogomilism based itself on Manichean thought (Stoyanov, 130) and also made it's way to Byzantium where French Crusaders brought it back to western Europe where the seeds of Catharism were planted.
Bogomilism heavily influenced the Cathars, who primarily settled in northern Italy and southern France. Bogomil was a tenth century Bulgarian priest that gave shape to the dualist ideas. He gave voice to the oppressed peasantry and his ideas quickly spread to Byzantium. His dualist teachings explained that all that is seen is evil, even flesh is the creation of the fallen angel Satan given to evil. All that is unseen is spiritual. Bogomil monks lived an extremely ascetic life, “eschewing eggs, milk, cheese, meat, all the products of coition, remaining celibate and fasting ruthlessly.” (Lambert, 63) Sympathizers venerated the initiates and would listen to their preaching but did not have to undergo the extreme ascetics of rejecting products of coition, marriage or parenthood. (Lambert, 63)
In 1143-4 Everwin of Steinfled reported the first outbreak of Catharism to St. Bernard of Clairvaux, telling him that in Cologne a group was detected that was well organized. There were three ranks- auditors, believers and elect. Believers became part of the elect by a ceremony of laying-on of hands and a probation period. They consecrated their meals with the Pater Noster and refused to consume any product of coition and rejected marriage. (Lambert, 62) Furthermore, the Cathars believed,
Spiritual beings, imprisoned in base matter, are purified in a cycle of rebirths. The Son is
the most perfect of created angels and is specially adopted by the Father; the Holy Spirit
is the aeon who is in charge of the celestial spirits who minister to the divine spark in man.
Christ only appeared to be man and neither died nor was resurrected. The New Testament
is the work of God the Old that of the Evil One. (Brown, 257)
The relationship between the Son and the Father is reminiscent of that between Spenta Mainyu and Ahura Mazda in Zoroastrianism, where the never-born Father creates both Jesus and Satan (the Evil One) and is clearly superior to both. The church reacted swiftly and decisively to get rid of the heresy in two ways, through force and persuasion. Innocent called the Albigensian Crusade against the Cathars to forcefully get rid of the heresy, but he also acknowledged and encouraged two new orders, The Dominicans and the Franciscans, to preach to the heretics and bring them back to the orthodox fold.
The single most important issue of the Albigensian Crusade was the Church's realization that it was not fulfilling the people's spiritual needs. The Cathars were just one of several poverty movements that renounced worldly possessions and criticized the Church's wealth. The fact that they differed on the subject of Christ with the Catholics wasn't as important as the fact that their message of simplicity was highly popular with the masses.
The technical definition of a crusade is: an armed expedition against the enemies of Christendom under papal leadership, which will bring the participants spiritual rewards and it is performed for the good of Christendom. Earlier Crusades fulfilled each requirement for example in the first Crusade urban II organized and sent the expedition promising spiritual rewards to the participants and of course it was for the good of Christendom because they were fighting the Muslim infidels.
In the same vein the Albigensian Crusade was a crusade as it fulfills the requirements set forth by the definition. It was led under the leadership of Pope innocent III, he promised spiritual rewards to those willing to participate in the armed expedition against the Cathars. Robert of Wendover made this clear when he wrote,
Pope innocent was greatly grieved at hearing theses things, and he immediately sent
preachers into all the districts of the west, and enjoined to the chiefs and other Christian
people as a remission of their sins, that they should take the sign of the cross for the
extirpation of this plague. (Peters, 26)
In this case, however, the enemies of Christendom were other Christians with different beliefs from Catholics. The focus on the enemies of Christendom went from being the Muslim infidels to Christian heretics. Innocent had already decreed to send out emissaries to preach and bring people back into the Catholic fold, for example Barber tells us, “During the twelfth century, therefore, the Church tried to isolate the disease by excommunication and anathema, using the church councils as its vehicle for condemnation. This was accompanied by a determined campaign of persuasion.” (Barber, 173) Yet the Cathari murdered one of these emissaries, Peter of Castelnau and that was when Innocent had had enough and called a Crusade against the Cathars. (Barber, 173)
Catholicism wasn't simply losing congregants they were losing power. This is made obvious in the fact that many of the nobles that answered the call of crusade only served long enough to gain material possessions or for as long as they had been contracted, “Henry, count of Champagne came to [Louis the French King], having been employed forty days in the siege and… asked leave to return home, and on the king's refusing his permission, he said that having served his forty days of duty he was not bound to, nor would he, stay any longer.” (Peters 33) Though they successfully diminished the Cathars' power and numbers, the Crusade itself did little to exterminate heresy in southern France.
Preaching proved to be more effective and have a longer lasting effect. In 1206 the Castilian bishop Diego of Osma and his subprior Dominic decided to preach on poverty in terms of equality to the Cathars. Diego died shortly after their preaching campaign had begun, but Dominic carried on preaching and living an exemplary apostolic life. (Lambert 103-4) Francis of Assisi also asked Innocent to approve his lifestyle of extreme poverty and gospel based preaching especially focusing on the sending of the Seventy. (Lambert 104) While the Dominicans engaged in preaching and debating with the heretics, the Franciscans may focus was their preaching by example. The Franciscans extreme poverty, preaching of the sending of the Seventy and religious fervor was similar to that of the Cathars, however they, unlike the Cathars, vowed obedience to the pope and were key in demonstrating the Church could still offer a less worldly way of life. The Struggle with the Cathars culminated in the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215 in which the Orthodox faith was reaffirmed, plans on how to deal with heresy were laid out as well as the ground work for a fifth crusade.
Just like the council at Nicaea was put together to deal with opposing factions and in the end branding Arianism as a heresy, the Fourth Lateran Council was primarily formed to deal with the Cathars. The Nicaean Council was the first to officially formulate what Christians believe. The belief in one God, the two natures of Christ and the anathema of Arian beliefs were professed. (Tanner, 5)
The phrase, “consubstantial with the Father,” was one of the key theological aspects from which not only Arianism, but also subsequent heresies would deviate from orthodox belief. Just like the Nicaean Creed was a response to Arianism the profession of faith in the Fourth Lateran Council was a direct response to Catharism, professing, the unity of the Trinity and the Equality of the Father Son and holy Spirit, Jesus' two natures, the importance of the old Testament and God as creator of both the spiritual and physical world.
We firmly believe and simply confess that there is only on true God, eternal and
Immeasurable, almighty, unchangeable, incomprehensible and ineffable, father, Son and
Holy Spirit, three persons but one absolutely simple essence, substance or nature…
consubstantial, coequal, co-omnipotent and coeternal; one principle of all things, creator
of all things invisible and visible, spiritual and corporal… This Holy Trinity… gave the
teaching of salvation to the human race through Moses and the holy prophets…Jesus
Christ… one person two natures (Tanner, 230)
This is a direct response to the Cathar beliefs that Christ wasn't human, that the physical world is evil because it is Satan's creation, that the Old Testament is the work of Satan and that Jesus is subordinate to the Father. The last declarations in the first canon of the council are that there is only one universal Church and only through it can one be saved and that baptism is consecrated in water. These last two send the message that all who are not Catholic, in other words the Cathars, will not be saved and to reinforce that baptism is through water, not fire like believed by the Cathars.
In the third Canon, or Constitution, the council decrees what will be done with heretics. Heretics will be excommunicated and handed over to the authorities. If they have been excommunicated for a year and they haven't repented they will be branded heretics. If someone is suspected of heresy they will be interrogated to clear up the suspicions. A series of interrogations and involving of the local authorities are involved to deliver punishments, laying the groundwork of what will later become the Inquisition.
We excommunicate and anathematize every heresy raising itself up against this holy,
orthodox and catholic faith which we have expounded above. We condemn all heretics,
whatever names they may go under…Let those condemned be handed over to the secular
authorities present, or to their bailiffs, for due punishment. Clerics are first to be degraded
from their orders. The goods of the condemned are to be confiscated…let secular
authorities, whatever offices they may be discharging, be advised and urged and if
necessary be compelled by ecclesiastical censure… (Tanner, 233)
This was key to identify and define “orthodox” belief, once stating what orthodoxy was by refuting the Cathars everything that didn't fit under that definition automatically became a heresy. Being the most prominent poverty movement, the Cathars forced the Catholic Church to revise and to some extent reform itself. It made the Church respond by patronizing poverty groups of their own in the Franciscans and the not so famous Humiliati, launching a crusade, putting together a council focused almost exclusively on how to deal with heresy and professing “orthodox” faith and by creating the Inquisition, a body who's sole purpose was to seek and deal with “heretics”. Therefore the biggest deed by the Cathar “heresy” was help define Catholic “orthodoxy”.
gor
Ancient Mariner
'montsegur'
[img src=\'http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v155/gorbeast/Montsegur.jpg\' border=\'0\' alt=\'user posted image\' /]
it's from the tour book. has some exclusive info about the Illuminati and the "eye of the triangle" explanation... I will post the rest of the tourbooks explanations soon, when they are made available to me...
cheers
[img src=\'http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v155/gorbeast/Montsegur.jpg\' border=\'0\' alt=\'user posted image\' /]
it's from the tour book. has some exclusive info about the Illuminati and the "eye of the triangle" explanation... I will post the rest of the tourbooks explanations soon, when they are made available to me...
cheers
syl
Ancient Mariner
'montsegur'
"As we kill them all
so God will know his own"
That's a quote attributed to Arnaud Amaury (Arnold Amalric), the abbot of Citeaux and papal legate who led the crusade against cathars in the south of France.
During the slaughter of Beziers in 1209 the soldiers asked Arnaud Amaury how they could distinguish the heretics from the catholics. He answered : "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius" ( Kill them all, God will know his own). So they slaughtered almost everybody in the town, more than 20000 people were killed (including the 200 cathars they were looking for) out of a population of 30000 inhabitants.
Amaury reffered to the Bible : Book of 2 Timothy 2:19 ( The Lord knows those who are his) and Book of Numbers 16:5 (In the morning the lord will show who belongs to him and who is holy).
[a href=\'http://www.medievalchurch.org.uk/h_cath_alb.html\' target=\'_blank\']Link in English[/a]
[a href=\'http://vdaucourt.free.fr/Amalric/Amalric.htm\' target=\'_blank\']Link in French[/a]
"As we kill them all
so God will know his own"
That's a quote attributed to Arnaud Amaury (Arnold Amalric), the abbot of Citeaux and papal legate who led the crusade against cathars in the south of France.
During the slaughter of Beziers in 1209 the soldiers asked Arnaud Amaury how they could distinguish the heretics from the catholics. He answered : "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius" ( Kill them all, God will know his own). So they slaughtered almost everybody in the town, more than 20000 people were killed (including the 200 cathars they were looking for) out of a population of 30000 inhabitants.
Amaury reffered to the Bible : Book of 2 Timothy 2:19 ( The Lord knows those who are his) and Book of Numbers 16:5 (In the morning the lord will show who belongs to him and who is holy).
[a href=\'http://www.medievalchurch.org.uk/h_cath_alb.html\' target=\'_blank\']Link in English[/a]
[a href=\'http://vdaucourt.free.fr/Amalric/Amalric.htm\' target=\'_blank\']Link in French[/a]
gor
Ancient Mariner
'montsegur'
[!--QuoteBegin-syl+Apr 13 2005, 01:41 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(syl @ Apr 13 2005, 01:41 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]"As we kill them all
so God will know his own"
That's a quote attributed to Arnaud Amaury (Arnold Amalric), the abbot of Citeaux and papal legate who led the crusade against cathars in the south of France.
During the slaughter of Beziers in 1209 the soldiers asked Arnaud Amaury how they could distinguish the heretics from the catholics. He answered : "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius" ( Kill them all, God will know his own). So they slaughtered almost everybody in the town, more than 20000 people were killed (including the 200 cathars they were looking for) out of a population of 30000 inhabitants.
Amaury reffered to the Bible : Book of 2 Timothy 2:19 ( The Lord knows those who are his) and Book of Numbers 16:5 (In the morning the lord will show who belongs to him and who is holy).
[a href=\'http://www.medievalchurch.org.uk/h_cath_alb.html\' target=\'_blank\']Link in English[/a]
[a href=\'http://vdaucourt.free.fr/Amalric/Amalric.htm\' target=\'_blank\']Link in French[/a]
great stuff! note that the reffered to french king who ordered the slaughtering of the Cathars at the time was Louis IX, or, better known to Catholics as St. Louis.
[!--QuoteBegin-syl+Apr 13 2005, 01:41 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(syl @ Apr 13 2005, 01:41 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]"As we kill them all
so God will know his own"
That's a quote attributed to Arnaud Amaury (Arnold Amalric), the abbot of Citeaux and papal legate who led the crusade against cathars in the south of France.
During the slaughter of Beziers in 1209 the soldiers asked Arnaud Amaury how they could distinguish the heretics from the catholics. He answered : "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius" ( Kill them all, God will know his own). So they slaughtered almost everybody in the town, more than 20000 people were killed (including the 200 cathars they were looking for) out of a population of 30000 inhabitants.
Amaury reffered to the Bible : Book of 2 Timothy 2:19 ( The Lord knows those who are his) and Book of Numbers 16:5 (In the morning the lord will show who belongs to him and who is holy).
[a href=\'http://www.medievalchurch.org.uk/h_cath_alb.html\' target=\'_blank\']Link in English[/a]
[a href=\'http://vdaucourt.free.fr/Amalric/Amalric.htm\' target=\'_blank\']Link in French[/a]
[snapback]102058[/snapback]
[/quote]great stuff! note that the reffered to french king who ordered the slaughtering of the Cathars at the time was Louis IX, or, better known to Catholics as St. Louis.
'montsegur'
When I first heard Montsegur, I didn't like it that much. It reminded me a lot of the Mercenary at first because both songs are pretty heavy for Maiden standards and have repetative choruses. However, Montsegur has grown on me a lot and is now one of my favorite tracks from Dance of Death.
When I first heard Montsegur, I didn't like it that much. It reminded me a lot of the Mercenary at first because both songs are pretty heavy for Maiden standards and have repetative choruses. However, Montsegur has grown on me a lot and is now one of my favorite tracks from Dance of Death.
SneakySneaky
Trooper
'montsegur'
This is a great song, Maiden showing that when they write songs they're serious about it. Based on historical facts they present a story, and where does it lead us to? We research this story. Apart from pleasure we learn more! This is why this band is so great. They make you want to find out more, and broaden your mind! [img src=\"style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/smile.gif\" style=\"vertical-align:middle\" emoid=\"\" border=\"0\" alt=\"smile.gif\" /] 4.5 stars.
This is a great song, Maiden showing that when they write songs they're serious about it. Based on historical facts they present a story, and where does it lead us to? We research this story. Apart from pleasure we learn more! This is why this band is so great. They make you want to find out more, and broaden your mind! [img src=\"style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/smile.gif\" style=\"vertical-align:middle\" emoid=\"
\" border=\"0\" alt=\"smile.gif\" /] 4.5 stars.Re: 'montsegur'
The commentary on Montsegur could do with incorporating a few of the things posted here so far.
Quite sadly however, the pre-chorus (the part that starts with "As we kill them all...") sounds a bit too light-hearted for such a dark topic and unbalances what could have been otherwise a great song.
While it does sound a little cheesy, "kill them all" is the phrase used by the Papal Legate when instructing his soldiers to attack the Cathars (Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.) Loosely translated, as mentioned above, it means "kill them all, God will know his own." Maiden is being true to the historical account, rather than cheesey.
As for the overall message in the song, I believe it's a warning us not to reject any idea which seems "heretical" to today's world.
Our capitalist society "kills" or at least marginalizes anyone who dares to challenge the supremacy of the new faith - money. The references to money are apparent in the final stanza: "in God We trust" is a phrase printed on all American money. The dollar bill, as mentioned, contains the eye and the unfinished pyramid. ("The eye of the triangle smiling with sin") Worship of this new secular God is everywhere. If you choose a different path, the non-consumerist, non-conformist route, you are, in essence, sinning against this new catholic (small C) doctine.
Look at the people who have been subjected to this new crusade: the homeless, fellow travellers, communists (in the true sense, not Soviets), etc. In the 20th century they have been completely marginalized by the mainstream. Why? They refuse to "live like a slave" in a cubicle or a coal mine, serving a corporate master. Instead, they are subjected to blackballing, disenfranchised, and ignored - the "burn like dogs" without even being aflamed. The homeless starve, having "no passover feast" because they're "cursed within".
For going against this new god, the almighty dollar, we attack people just as visciously as the Catholic Church used to attack heretics in the middle ages. We dont necessarialy kill them physically, but they are dead to us. In other words, we continue to "burn heretics under our skies" just as they did ceturies ago.
The commentary on Montsegur could do with incorporating a few of the things posted here so far.
Quite sadly however, the pre-chorus (the part that starts with "As we kill them all...") sounds a bit too light-hearted for such a dark topic and unbalances what could have been otherwise a great song.
While it does sound a little cheesy, "kill them all" is the phrase used by the Papal Legate when instructing his soldiers to attack the Cathars (Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.) Loosely translated, as mentioned above, it means "kill them all, God will know his own." Maiden is being true to the historical account, rather than cheesey.
As for the overall message in the song, I believe it's a warning us not to reject any idea which seems "heretical" to today's world.
Our capitalist society "kills" or at least marginalizes anyone who dares to challenge the supremacy of the new faith - money. The references to money are apparent in the final stanza: "in God We trust" is a phrase printed on all American money. The dollar bill, as mentioned, contains the eye and the unfinished pyramid. ("The eye of the triangle smiling with sin") Worship of this new secular God is everywhere. If you choose a different path, the non-consumerist, non-conformist route, you are, in essence, sinning against this new catholic (small C) doctine.
Look at the people who have been subjected to this new crusade: the homeless, fellow travellers, communists (in the true sense, not Soviets), etc. In the 20th century they have been completely marginalized by the mainstream. Why? They refuse to "live like a slave" in a cubicle or a coal mine, serving a corporate master. Instead, they are subjected to blackballing, disenfranchised, and ignored - the "burn like dogs" without even being aflamed. The homeless starve, having "no passover feast" because they're "cursed within".
For going against this new god, the almighty dollar, we attack people just as visciously as the Catholic Church used to attack heretics in the middle ages. We dont necessarialy kill them physically, but they are dead to us. In other words, we continue to "burn heretics under our skies" just as they did ceturies ago.
____no5
Free Man
Re: 'montsegur'
Toulouse is a very mysterious place…….Late years has been made the center for space researches, its name for a 2000 plus years means “the Dom” (Tholos-Tholosa-Tolosa-Toulouse)
There is something particular in this town (except the wonderful native accent and the red house-bricks) ….It's like the time, has stop in one particular era : 13th century. I stayed some years and I’ve met a lot of people proud for their “Oc” and “Cathar” origins….and I was impressed by the Cathar’s castles in the larger area of Languedoc but mostly by the big street boards writings “Land of Cathars”
So I’ve made some researches to know more about that…..At that time, I found that there is a connection between this big tradition of street theatre, still existing and flourishing in France and Cathars…..It means that the middle-age troubadour that we all have in our minds, is the transformation of the perfectii people, in order to survive and to continue spread their ideas….
After some years, Dance of Death is on the stores, and my interest for the legend of Cathars is revitalized. (while living in Toulouse is hard to forget that legend really, as the time has really stopped there)
So I went and visit Montségur, and bought several books about the castle and the Cathars
Note#1 : to arrive to Montségur from Foix, one pass from a very beautiful bridge that’s called “Devil’s bridge”
Note#2 : In fact it was that second research that made me discover this site !!! One day that I wanted to verify something I googled Montségur, and I was found in the iron maiden commentary, and I was really impressed from the depth of the research…..Also I felt proud as Maiden fan for this research of big quality…….A lot of things that were written in this topic of Montségur, I knew them already from my researches, so I’ll tell you some things that I discovered but I didn’t find in commentary:
FACT#1 -Montségur, is not just a castle, is so small and so funny oriented that one must wonder the reason of its existence.
Montségur, is a temple of light. In the last photo [of Montségur and the Cathars link] in Montségur commentary, one can see the Montségur sunset. The temple is this tower in the right of the sun. One can see a loophole in the center of that tower, and beneath, a very thin one. Every 21th of June according to my sources, the sun enters through this hole and a second one which is in the interior (and we can’t see it on this photo)
Unfortunately, my visit in Montségur was held in September, so I couldn’t verify it with my eyes
FACT#2 -My sources says that the night between 15 and 16 of that March (the ides of March!) 4 perfectii escaped from this castle. According to my sources, the truce that the people of the castle asked for, was just to win some time and prepare this leave of the 4 perfectii.
With this escape, it starts another legend, this of holy grail, that these 4 supposed to carry with them!! The Bruce lyric “Curse of the Grail and the blood on the cross” refers to that, as this extract from the commentary “On March 16, 1944, on the 700th anniversary of the fall of Montségur, Nazi planes are reported to have flown patterns over the ruins – either swastikas or Celtic crosses, depending upon the sources. The Nazi ideologist, Alfred Rosenberg was reported to be on board one of the airplanes.”
Note#3 : it's common knowledge that Nazis were searching for the Grail in the Pyrenees (The Mountains of fire PYR-)
A month after my visit, I went to live in Bretagne (coincidence), and I took the chance to make some researches for Arthur, Merlin etc. Waiting now for a “round table” Maiden epic, or a “Merlin the magician” concept album (not bad idea), to post my comments
After that, a circle closes for me as I return and make a post to the topic that made me discover these forums….Is also a small tribute to the region of Toulouse, for my days there.
Ô moun pays! ô moun pays ! ô Toulouso, Toulouso!
Qu'aymi tas flous, qu'aymi tas flous, toun cel, toun soulel d'or !
PS: I’ve been searching all this morning for the plans and documents of Montségur that I have, to post them but I can’t find for the moment. As soon as I find them I will come back and modify this post, with my documents and references.
Toulouse is a very mysterious place…….Late years has been made the center for space researches, its name for a 2000 plus years means “the Dom” (Tholos-Tholosa-Tolosa-Toulouse)
There is something particular in this town (except the wonderful
native accent and the red house-bricks) ….It's like the time, has stop in one particular era : 13th century. I stayed some years and I’ve met a lot of people proud for their “Oc” and “Cathar” origins….and I was impressed by the Cathar’s castles in the larger area of Languedoc but mostly by the big street boards writings “Land of Cathars”So I’ve made some researches to know more about that…..At that time, I found that there is a connection between this big tradition of street theatre, still existing and flourishing in France and Cathars…..It means that the middle-age troubadour that we all have in our minds, is the transformation of the perfectii people, in order to survive and to continue spread their ideas….
After some years, Dance of Death is on the stores, and my interest for the legend of Cathars is revitalized. (while living in Toulouse is hard to forget that legend really, as the time has really stopped there)
So I went and visit Montségur, and bought several books about the castle and the Cathars
Note#1 : to arrive to Montségur from Foix, one pass from a very beautiful bridge that’s called “Devil’s bridge”
Note#2 : In fact it was that second research that made me discover this site !!! One day that I wanted to verify something I googled Montségur, and I was found in the iron maiden commentary, and I was really impressed from the depth of the research…..Also I felt proud as Maiden fan for this research of big quality…….A lot of things that were written in this topic of Montségur, I knew them already from my researches, so I’ll tell you some things that I discovered but I didn’t find in commentary:
FACT#1 -Montségur, is not just a castle, is so small and so funny oriented that one must wonder the reason of its existence.
Montségur, is a temple of light. In the last photo [of Montségur and the Cathars link] in Montségur commentary, one can see the Montségur sunset. The temple is this tower in the right of the sun. One can see a loophole in the center of that tower, and beneath, a very thin one. Every 21th of June according to my sources, the sun enters through this hole and a second one which is in the interior (and we can’t see it on this photo)
Unfortunately, my visit in Montségur was held in September, so I couldn’t verify it with my eyes
FACT#2 -My sources says that the night between 15 and 16 of that March (the ides of March!) 4 perfectii escaped from this castle. According to my sources, the truce that the people of the castle asked for, was just to win some time and prepare this leave of the 4 perfectii.
With this escape, it starts another legend, this of holy grail, that these 4 supposed to carry with them!! The Bruce lyric “Curse of the Grail and the blood on the cross” refers to that, as this extract from the commentary “On March 16, 1944, on the 700th anniversary of the fall of Montségur, Nazi planes are reported to have flown patterns over the ruins – either swastikas or Celtic crosses, depending upon the sources. The Nazi ideologist, Alfred Rosenberg was reported to be on board one of the airplanes.”
Note#3 : it's common knowledge that Nazis were searching for the Grail in the Pyrenees (The Mountains of fire PYR-)
A month after my visit, I went to live in Bretagne (coincidence), and I took the chance to make some researches for Arthur, Merlin etc. Waiting now for a “round table” Maiden epic, or a “Merlin the magician” concept album (not bad idea), to post my comments
After that, a circle closes for me as I return and make a post to the topic that made me discover these forums….Is also a small tribute to the region of Toulouse, for my days there.
Ô moun pays! ô moun pays ! ô Toulouso, Toulouso!
Qu'aymi tas flous, qu'aymi tas flous, toun cel, toun soulel d'or !
PS: I’ve been searching all this morning for the plans and documents of Montségur that I have, to post them but I can’t find for the moment. As soon as I find them I will come back and modify this post, with my documents and references.
____no5
Free Man
Re: 'montsegur'
perfectii were the perfects of the song : "the perfect would willingly die at the stake / and all of their followers slain"
the perfects were on the top of the Cathars hierarchy, and they supposed not to sin at all, including sex....unlike them, the popular base of Cathars was a libertine community
Natalie said:
perfectii were the perfects of the song : "the perfect would willingly die at the stake / and all of their followers slain"
the perfects were on the top of the Cathars hierarchy, and they supposed not to sin at all, including sex....unlike them, the popular base of Cathars was a libertine community