I'm going to go ahead and do this. I agree it's a better version, but I think it also balances the game out a bit. Having Lap of the Gods go against Astronomy seems a lot fairer than Misfire. Update imminent.
Metal Essentials I: Grandfathers of Metal (1970 - 1975) - FINAL ROUND - Zeppelin vs Sabbath
- Thread starter Mosh
- Start date
In what is perhaps a slight upset, In Rock barely edges out Rainbow 4 to 3. Which brings us to our penultimate pairing:
Round 4: Clash of the Heavy (But Not Metal)
As seen in the Prog round, there are many bands who don’t quite fit the Metal label but still had a lot of influence in the genre’s development. Among those are Queen and Blue Oyster Cult. Today I present two albums that belong in any self respecting Metal fan’s collection.
It didn’t take long for Queen to essentially become an arena rock/pop juggernaut, but their Heavy Metal roots cannot be ignored. Where bands like Black Sabbath came from England’s working class, a background that clearly influenced the music, Queen was made up of college graduates and displayed much more pomp in their music. Their early work could get incredibly heavy, but it lacked grit. That did not stop Queen from becoming an influence on the Metal that came later, especially in the prog realm. Sheer Heart Attack shows the band at a crossroads. It contains their first real hit and the first indication at a poppier/glammier future: Killer Queen. But it also contains the manic Stone Cold Crazy and the shreddy Brighton Rock. As an album, it is a bit all over the place, but it represents the culmination of Queen’s early days before A Night At the Opera taking them to the stratospheres of Rock music. Thus, Sheer Heart Attack is included here as a representation of Queen’s beginnings as a pompous progressive metal band.
As far as I know, Blue Oyster Cult is the only band in this game that actually uses the term “heavy metal” in their music. Therefore, it is vital that they are included. Blue Oyster Cult also has the distinction of being the only band in the game not from England (although it is worth noting that Ronnie James Dio was American, but Rainbow was otherwise a British band). Rather, BOC comes from New York City, where a very different music scene was emerging at the time. Like Queen, it’s hard to pigeonhole them into a single genre as their influences varied wildly from album to album, sometimes even from song to song. They aren’t quite a Metal band, but there is definitely a heavy element to their music and darkness to many of their lyrical themes. However, where Queen was more on the side of pomp and prog, Blue Oyster Cult had a sludgier and groovier sound. They also had a fascination with the occult, much like bands like Sabbath. Like Sheer Heart Attack, Secret Treaties is the band’s third album and represents a turning point in their career. It is the end of the “black and white” era and the last album before they would hit it big with Agents of Fortune. Musically, Secret Treaties is a bit more focused than Sheer Heart Attack or even other BOC albums. Many of the songs groove hard and there are sizzling guitar leads all over here (check out the twin guitar attack on Harvester of Eyes). The album also contains Astronomy, which is probably the first song to gain any notoriety for the band and remains a fan favorite, although it did not see any commercial success.
Also, I'm going to ask that people stop voting for the dividers columns. It doesn't contribute to anything and it makes it kinda difficult for me to enter the results into my spreadsheet properly. If you don't wish to vote for a pairing, just leave it blank. You are not required to use all your votes.
Round 4: Clash of the Heavy (But Not Metal)
As seen in the Prog round, there are many bands who don’t quite fit the Metal label but still had a lot of influence in the genre’s development. Among those are Queen and Blue Oyster Cult. Today I present two albums that belong in any self respecting Metal fan’s collection.
It didn’t take long for Queen to essentially become an arena rock/pop juggernaut, but their Heavy Metal roots cannot be ignored. Where bands like Black Sabbath came from England’s working class, a background that clearly influenced the music, Queen was made up of college graduates and displayed much more pomp in their music. Their early work could get incredibly heavy, but it lacked grit. That did not stop Queen from becoming an influence on the Metal that came later, especially in the prog realm. Sheer Heart Attack shows the band at a crossroads. It contains their first real hit and the first indication at a poppier/glammier future: Killer Queen. But it also contains the manic Stone Cold Crazy and the shreddy Brighton Rock. As an album, it is a bit all over the place, but it represents the culmination of Queen’s early days before A Night At the Opera taking them to the stratospheres of Rock music. Thus, Sheer Heart Attack is included here as a representation of Queen’s beginnings as a pompous progressive metal band.
As far as I know, Blue Oyster Cult is the only band in this game that actually uses the term “heavy metal” in their music. Therefore, it is vital that they are included. Blue Oyster Cult also has the distinction of being the only band in the game not from England (although it is worth noting that Ronnie James Dio was American, but Rainbow was otherwise a British band). Rather, BOC comes from New York City, where a very different music scene was emerging at the time. Like Queen, it’s hard to pigeonhole them into a single genre as their influences varied wildly from album to album, sometimes even from song to song. They aren’t quite a Metal band, but there is definitely a heavy element to their music and darkness to many of their lyrical themes. However, where Queen was more on the side of pomp and prog, Blue Oyster Cult had a sludgier and groovier sound. They also had a fascination with the occult, much like bands like Sabbath. Like Sheer Heart Attack, Secret Treaties is the band’s third album and represents a turning point in their career. It is the end of the “black and white” era and the last album before they would hit it big with Agents of Fortune. Musically, Secret Treaties is a bit more focused than Sheer Heart Attack or even other BOC albums. Many of the songs groove hard and there are sizzling guitar leads all over here (check out the twin guitar attack on Harvester of Eyes). The album also contains Astronomy, which is probably the first song to gain any notoriety for the band and remains a fan favorite, although it did not see any commercial success.
Also, I'm going to ask that people stop voting for the dividers columns. It doesn't contribute to anything and it makes it kinda difficult for me to enter the results into my spreadsheet properly. If you don't wish to vote for a pairing, just leave it blank. You are not required to use all your votes.
Surprisingly, BOC totally trounced Queen for me. I really like Sheer Heart Attack, but I think I agree with Knickerbocker that Queen is more of a singles band. With the exception of A Night At the Opera, I can't think of a single Queen album that leaves me satisfied all the way through. On the other hand, there are many individual songs (some well known, some not) that I love. On Sheer Heart Attack, those are Killer Queen, the Tenement Funster medley, and In the Lap of Gods. Everything else went to BOC. I thought by maybe cutting out some of the fat in Sheer Heart Attack, it would appear stronger on a song-by-song basis, but I think it actually decreased my appreciation for it. Oh well.
Secret Treaties is a really solid album though. Some great guitar playing and just an overall cool vibe to the music. It's nothing too out there or complex, but it stays engaging.
Secret Treaties is a really solid album though. Some great guitar playing and just an overall cool vibe to the music. It's nothing too out there or complex, but it stays engaging.
Cat Milk Supreme
Ancient Mariner
I'm not too familiar with either of these band in terms of listening to full albums but having listened to both of these during the week I tend to agree. For me, the high points on Sheer Heart Attack may well be better than the best of Secret Treaties but as a full album, I definitely prefer Secret Treaties. Queen are all over the place and as such I find it hard to 'get' the album. Nothing wrong with a bit of variety but its easy to forget what you're listening to .
Deus_Adrian
Prince of the Final Frontier
How the heck is Astronomy losing?
Cat Milk Supreme
Ancient Mariner
Brighton Rock v Career in Evil
This was tricky. Career in Evil had a cool groove and is much more coherent and seems like an actual song as opposed to Brighton Rock's torrent of ideas.
Still, the best bits of Brighton Rock tickle me more than Career in Evil so it gets the vote.
Killer Queen v Subhuman
Cool riff and solo wins it for Subhuman.
Tenement Funster etc v Dominance and Submission
All 3 are decent, some nice guitar in Flick in particular but nothin as good as the breakdown and runout in Dominance. Tenement reminds me of Im In Love
With My Car. No bad thing. The solo and the bit after is good. I like May's playin but his tone seems out of place, to me. Again, it feels like the elements of this
song/album/band don't all belong together.
Now Im Here v ME 262
Now I'm Here is a bland enough tune but the solo section and on to the end picks it up a notch. I listened to the live version from Hammersmith, much better. Energy of ME and the 'heavy metal fruit' riff for the win.
Stone Cold Crazy v Harvester of Eyes
Harvester has a nice sleazy groove and nice twin lead, really like it but Stone Cold Crazy is probably my favourite Metallica song so it wins. Great energy, balls to the wall stuff. Always gets me goin. Listening to this its hard to imagine the same band doin We Are The Champions
Misfire v Flaming Telepaths
Misfire is too sweet for my likin. Like the unexpected synth thing in Flaming Telepaths and another great solo. One of my favourites from these 2 albums.
Lap of the Gods Revisited v Astronomy
Lap is the kind of epic, triumphant pomp that Queen do better than anyone I've ever come across. Its not a song or a style that I would ever seek out but a decent tune nonetheless.
Astronomy is a brilliant song and the only one from the album that I had heard before. Another of my favourite Metallica tunes. Crackin song, love the whole tone of it and the interplay between bass and guitar. Easy winner.
I can easily see the influence both albums could have had on any aspiring metal player, from the epic feel and structure of Astronomy to the aggression of Stone Cold Crazy. Both decent albums, Secret Treaties being much more my kind of thing and something I will actively seek out again, Sheer Heart Attack, not so much.
Queen are fucked up. I sort of don't take them seriously. They have so many great songs and as much as any band they are part of some sort of global conscience; everybody knows them somehow some way. So it is almost as research that I actually listen to a full album as opposed to just joining in a chorus of We Will Rock You or We Are The Champions. Its not their fault but its how I appreciate them. They are more a songs band than an album band. That said, I have only heard a couple of albums right through but still find them kind of schizophrenic. They often seem to shoe horn bits into songs. Like, theres no call for some of the parts of Brighton Rock. They could easily have made a decent tune or 2 out of some of those riffs. And then theres the extended version of I want It All. I love the song and the extra bit but it feels like it shouldn't be in the song, to me. Though I heard the edited version many times before I heard the full version. Still good, mind you. Great players and Freddie is a star of the highest order.
BOC are more my style, some of their stuff is class and I really like Dharma's style and Bouchard too.
So 5-2 to BOC. Thats about right.
This was tricky. Career in Evil had a cool groove and is much more coherent and seems like an actual song as opposed to Brighton Rock's torrent of ideas.
Still, the best bits of Brighton Rock tickle me more than Career in Evil so it gets the vote.
Killer Queen v Subhuman
Cool riff and solo wins it for Subhuman.
Tenement Funster etc v Dominance and Submission
All 3 are decent, some nice guitar in Flick in particular but nothin as good as the breakdown and runout in Dominance. Tenement reminds me of Im In Love
With My Car. No bad thing. The solo and the bit after is good. I like May's playin but his tone seems out of place, to me. Again, it feels like the elements of this
song/album/band don't all belong together.
Now Im Here v ME 262
Now I'm Here is a bland enough tune but the solo section and on to the end picks it up a notch. I listened to the live version from Hammersmith, much better. Energy of ME and the 'heavy metal fruit' riff for the win.
Stone Cold Crazy v Harvester of Eyes
Harvester has a nice sleazy groove and nice twin lead, really like it but Stone Cold Crazy is probably my favourite Metallica song so it wins. Great energy, balls to the wall stuff. Always gets me goin. Listening to this its hard to imagine the same band doin We Are The Champions
Misfire v Flaming Telepaths
Misfire is too sweet for my likin. Like the unexpected synth thing in Flaming Telepaths and another great solo. One of my favourites from these 2 albums.
Lap of the Gods Revisited v Astronomy
Lap is the kind of epic, triumphant pomp that Queen do better than anyone I've ever come across. Its not a song or a style that I would ever seek out but a decent tune nonetheless.
Astronomy is a brilliant song and the only one from the album that I had heard before. Another of my favourite Metallica tunes. Crackin song, love the whole tone of it and the interplay between bass and guitar. Easy winner.
I can easily see the influence both albums could have had on any aspiring metal player, from the epic feel and structure of Astronomy to the aggression of Stone Cold Crazy. Both decent albums, Secret Treaties being much more my kind of thing and something I will actively seek out again, Sheer Heart Attack, not so much.
Queen are fucked up. I sort of don't take them seriously. They have so many great songs and as much as any band they are part of some sort of global conscience; everybody knows them somehow some way. So it is almost as research that I actually listen to a full album as opposed to just joining in a chorus of We Will Rock You or We Are The Champions. Its not their fault but its how I appreciate them. They are more a songs band than an album band. That said, I have only heard a couple of albums right through but still find them kind of schizophrenic. They often seem to shoe horn bits into songs. Like, theres no call for some of the parts of Brighton Rock. They could easily have made a decent tune or 2 out of some of those riffs. And then theres the extended version of I want It All. I love the song and the extra bit but it feels like it shouldn't be in the song, to me. Though I heard the edited version many times before I heard the full version. Still good, mind you. Great players and Freddie is a star of the highest order.
BOC are more my style, some of their stuff is class and I really like Dharma's style and Bouchard too.
So 5-2 to BOC. Thats about right.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Why take an image/judgement of a band (or album, even) when we just need to compare songs?
Queen might be a singles band to some (to me as well probably) but they did make good album songs, especially around this time. BOC has one outstanding song and one memorable album and that is not this one. But these are ideas formed in my mind before I compare these songs. So let's see what happens.
Queen might be a singles band to some (to me as well probably) but they did make good album songs, especially around this time. BOC has one outstanding song and one memorable album and that is not this one. But these are ideas formed in my mind before I compare these songs. So let's see what happens.
Secrets Treaties may not be among the seminal albums of all time, but it is one of the best lyrically and really set the template for the metal genre in that area - one that is at once macabre, fantastic, subversive and intellectually far more interesting than the metal stereotype. Stephen King put to music before Stephen King.
Career of Evil is among the most unapologetic declarations of badassery ever put to vinyl, Subhuman explores a Lovecraftian netherworld, Dominance is slice of psychosexual creepiness, ME262 features WW2 from a Nazi perspective, Cagey Cretins sets a Deliverance-tinged Micheal Myers character to work in the state of Maine, Harvester of Eyes is horror novel stuff whether you treat it literally or metaphorically, Telepaths is all government conspiracies and paranormal activity and Astronomy pulls a sliver of the curtain back on the epic world of Imaginos. It should be irresistable to the geek hiding in most metal fans.
Career of Evil is among the most unapologetic declarations of badassery ever put to vinyl, Subhuman explores a Lovecraftian netherworld, Dominance is slice of psychosexual creepiness, ME262 features WW2 from a Nazi perspective, Cagey Cretins sets a Deliverance-tinged Micheal Myers character to work in the state of Maine, Harvester of Eyes is horror novel stuff whether you treat it literally or metaphorically, Telepaths is all government conspiracies and paranormal activity and Astronomy pulls a sliver of the curtain back on the epic world of Imaginos. It should be irresistable to the geek hiding in most metal fans.
The Dissident
Ancient Mariner
Going to try to listen to Secret Treaties this week, regardless of if I get it done or not I'll listen to it in the near future
The Dissident
Ancient Mariner
[10] Brighton Rock V Career of Evil [8]
[8] Killer Queen V Subhuman [7.5]
[8] Medley V Dominance and Submission [8.5]
[9] Now I'm Here V ME 262 [9]
[8.5] Stone Cold Crazy V Harvester of Eyes [8]
[7.5] Misfire V Flaming Telepaths [8]
[8] In the Laps of the Gods... Revisited V Astronomy [9.5]
59 V 58.5
Queen Narrowly edges out the win
[8] Killer Queen V Subhuman [7.5]
[8] Medley V Dominance and Submission [8.5]
[9] Now I'm Here V ME 262 [9]
[8.5] Stone Cold Crazy V Harvester of Eyes [8]
[7.5] Misfire V Flaming Telepaths [8]
[8] In the Laps of the Gods... Revisited V Astronomy [9.5]
59 V 58.5
Queen Narrowly edges out the win
I only pick Killer Queen & the medley over anything from Secret Treaties.
As some of you no doubt already know, many pieces of Secret Treaties are part of an uber-ambitious concept double (or even triple) album project that manager/lyricist/unofficial sixth member Sandy Pearlman and drummer/most prolific songwriter Al Bouchard flirted with over the years, but never completed.
Bouchard refocused his attention on the project after he was fired from the band and got much of it written and recorded with session musicians that included Joe Satriani and Robbie Kreiger of the Doors, but couldn't get it released. CBS basically seized the project, brought in remaining members of BOC to re-record parts — predominantly the vocals by BOC frontmen Eric Bloom and Donald Roeser — reordered and edited out songs, and released it as a BOC album called Imaginos.
Two Secret Treaties songs were re-recorded and re-released for Imaginos. I'd like to hear what you think:
Bouchard refocused his attention on the project after he was fired from the band and got much of it written and recorded with session musicians that included Joe Satriani and Robbie Kreiger of the Doors, but couldn't get it released. CBS basically seized the project, brought in remaining members of BOC to re-record parts — predominantly the vocals by BOC frontmen Eric Bloom and Donald Roeser — reordered and edited out songs, and released it as a BOC album called Imaginos.
Two Secret Treaties songs were re-recorded and re-released for Imaginos. I'd like to hear what you think:
The Dissident
Ancient Mariner
Quite enjoying the rerecorded Astronomy
Spambot
Meme Lord
To be honest, I was quite unfamiliar with BCO, so when Mosh announced this game 2 months ago, Secret Treaties was the first album I went to listen to.
And at first listen, I didn't like it at all... Maybe it's because of the opener. I'm more into melody than lyrics, but Career of Evil was so juvenile and stupid I just couldn't ignore it.
Luckily it gets better after that, although there are moments where it seems like I'm listening a local teen band on radio stadion, like: "Yeahhhh.... But good for you guys, you might get somewhere".
I know it seems a bit harsh, but I've expected a lot more. And don't tell me it was revolutionary for that time. There were much heaver and much more atmospheric albums even in that year, let alone years before.
However, they got my vote for Flaming Telepaths (it's what I expected most of album will sound like) and Astronomy.
Which also means they will win this round.
And at first listen, I didn't like it at all... Maybe it's because of the opener. I'm more into melody than lyrics, but Career of Evil was so juvenile and stupid I just couldn't ignore it.
Luckily it gets better after that, although there are moments where it seems like I'm listening a local teen band on radio stadion, like: "Yeahhhh.... But good for you guys, you might get somewhere".
I know it seems a bit harsh, but I've expected a lot more. And don't tell me it was revolutionary for that time. There were much heaver and much more atmospheric albums even in that year, let alone years before.
However, they got my vote for Flaming Telepaths (it's what I expected most of album will sound like) and Astronomy.
Which also means they will win this round.
Cornfed Hick
Ancient Mariner
Hmm, I guess I don't get what others see in BOC. I think they are just OK. Not bad, worth a listen every now and again, I'm glad they exist, but that's about it. Meanwhile Queen is in the running for "Greatest. Rock. Band. Ever." status. Sheer Heart Attack is by no means my favorite Queen album, but this poll is a landslide for me. Even "Astronomy," which is the best track on Secret Treaties and probably would have won several other matchups with different songs, gets edged out by "In the Lap of the Gods...Revisited" in this poll, because, well, I think "Lap" is great. (But it's close, that one could have gone either way.) Several have called Queen a "singles" band, which sort of penalizes them for being adventurous and eclectic in the studio -- they try goofy stuff, and not all of it works -- but in this case, those critics have a point. Sheer Heart Attack is not as cohesive an album as Secret Treaties (or other Queen albums) but the individual songs are generally better.
MrKnickerbocker
clap hands
- Brighton Rock is barely a song, more a collection of pomposity and silliness (aka Queen being Queen). As a song it’s terrible, but the guitar playing is good. Career of Evil is just insipid.
- Killer Queen is a band in top songwriting and performance form. Subhuman is a really cool song, but simply can’t compare to one of Queen’s best.
- Funster/Flick/Lily spans a lot of territory but holds together really well and has some incredibly catchy, interesting sections. Dominance and Submission, once again, pales in comparison.
- Now I’m Here and ME 262 are both pretty average, straightforward rock tunes, but BOC gets the edge here. There’s some cool riffage and the subject matter/sound FX seem like a precursor to all of Maiden’s aerial warfare tunes.
- All of the riffs in Harvester of Eyes are awesome, from the stutter start main riff to the amazing bridge and the solo, but the vocal sections are boring boogie blues rock. Stone Cold Crazy is the stronger song, despite (GASP!) being less engaging than the Metallica cover.
- The first ten seconds of Flaming Telepaths is more interesting than all of Misfire. The rest of the song has the most “metallic” riffs we’ve heard yet in this matchup. It rivals Killer Queen as the best song this round, until...
- Astronomy wins by a mile here. I’m deeply familiar with the Metallica cover (which I still prefer), but the original song is still amazing. In The Lap of The Gods is fine, but nothing special compared to this tune.
