Maiden settles the Hallowed Be Thy Name claim in full
- Thread starter Steve Hogarth
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fisherenterprises
Invader
Hello Perrun. I'm not asking you to take his side; I'm not asking you to think any the less of Iron Maiden; I'm simply complaining about vicious attacks on the character of a man without good reason.
I'm not even asking you to judge the actions of Mr Harris who, I am assured, is a thoroughly decent fellow, and I know has run an incredibly successful and entertaining band the world-over for decades. I dearly wish I'd been the drummer.
fisherenterprises
Invader
I think we can all agree that the drum-track on Rainbow's Gold is a very significant part of the song, and it was the genesis of the song in rehearsals; then Kenny put his chords and lyrics on the top of it and the bass line was adjusted accordingly. I did not get a credit because I told Kenny I didn't expect one. I had dozens of equally interesting drum patterns but they were of no earthly interest to the public until a song-writer, like Kenny or Bob, added the music to them. I'm sure many drummers will disagree; that's what makes the world interesting.Yes you are right. But if I was a drummer and I came up with the drum part first, and then music was put to that, I would expect a credit.
I expect that is the same scenario as Gangland, where Clive Burr got a writing credit. I assume the drum intro to Gangland spawned the rest of the song
But the whole point is that, bearing in mind the Thunderburst issue, Rod clearly expects a credit for his boys if a part is used. That should be reciprocated (as in the case of Beckett)
Fair enough. As I said, I take back my statements on McKay, and I'll be careful not to be so quick in my judgement in the future.
Welsh Phantom
Ancient Mariner
I think that in the situation you describe, everyone should get a credit. At least that is how I would approach it. But each to his own
fisherenterprises
Invader
Well, thinking back to that rehearsal period where we were working on new material, I made a suggestion: if a song was entirely the product of one individual (Bob Barton for example, brought fully formed songs to the band) then they should receive full credit; but if a song was the result of an initial suggestion from one individual, then developed using input from the other band members, the person who supplied the initial nucleus should get 50% royalties and the remaining 50% should be divided up amongst the band with - in our case - 10% to each member, including the man who got 50%, as it was taken for granted that they would continue to contribute to the development of the song. Might seem complicated, but it's not really.I think that in the situation you describe, everyone should get a credit. At least that is how I would approach it. But each to his own
This concept was agreed upon unanimously and wholeheartedly, but when it came to submitting data to the publishing company it was mysteriously forgotten about. As I said though, my innumerable drum patterns are not worth diddly to the public without a songwriter's music and lyric layers on top.
fisherenterprises
Invader
What is this please?
Diesel 11
As you scream into the web of silence...
It was a joke in response to another joke someone else said. Not directed at this thread or you; I enjoy reading your posts because they're very insightful and help us get a better picture of what is going on behind the scenes.
fisherenterprises
Invader
It's very unpleasant!
MindlessPieces
Educated Fool
When I came to realise all of this. I was at first highly skeptical. Oh, someone just want's to sue because these guys are rich and famous. And they picked Hallowed because it was probably their most famous song.
But then when I saw the lyrics to "Life's Shadow" I realised that actually Maiden have used some lyrics (slightly modified) but definitely lifted. The author(s) of those lyrics ought to have been given some credits and royalties. (I don't know what the going rate is). By the way, I do think those lyrics are poetic and beautiful.
I was a bit pissed off that Maiden had done this. And I'm struggling a little as to why they were trying to fight the case. But it does seem a bit complicated, as two people are now claiming to own the lyrics. Seems Maiden had to pay twice for this, as well as the huge legal fees. Anyway, I do think Harris has integrity and I think it is complicated as to how these lyrics ended up in the finished version of the song. They are good lyrics and he ought to have paid for them, maybe he thought he had modified them enough?
I was actually more annoyed by The Nomad. On first listening, I thought it was the same song, note for note. This pissed me off, why would Maiden do that? Especially for an instrumental section. Were they that desperate for ideas?
But I've come to listen to "Life's Shadow" quite a bit now. I think the band is a little Led Zepplinish, but with a nicer singer. I'm actually starting to like this song quite a bit. BUT, I no longer think Maiden lifted the instrumental section. The Beckett instrumental is a motif, repeated over and over. Maiden's instrumental has distinct elements of this motif which it plays three times, The passage going up the scale and then down the scale is similar, the timing in places is a bit different.
Maiden's instrumental though does a whole heap of other things, the motif is just that, just a small part of maiden's instrumental. It's such a beautiful section, it grabs you, and makes you think it is more significant than it actually is.
I have no doubt that Maiden were influenced by the Life's Shadow song, but it isn't stealing from that song, not in my book (the courts can say differently though). But personally, I now have no qualms about the similarities. I don't blame Maiden for having influences and I think they have made a beautiful section which is inspired by a beautiful piece of music in a pretty decent Beckett song.
I don't think Becket deserve writing credits or royalties for that but they ought to feel proud that Maiden were inspired by them, and perhaps the benefit is that people like me can discover their Life's Shadow song.
Ziggyplayedguitar
Educated Fool
Let’s be honest, will anyone enjoy HBTN or The Nomad as much as they used to considering the settlement?
I understand your point, but I disagree. It's true that the instrumental piece in The Nomad develops the motif from Life's Shadow much further. I also agree that this is not per se a morally despicable thing. With all the hype the concept of originality gets these days, it's easily forgotten that artists have done this sort of thing forever. You could argue that Maiden wanted to pay tribute to Beckett by using this instrumental section, and I think it's fine to do that, but it was wrong not to credit them. As I said before, this isn't like the Two Minutes to Midnight Riff, where a pattern is so simple that musicians virtually stumble on it all the time. This is a fairly complex musical composition that passes the threshold of originality, and is therefore the creation of a Beckett member.
I never thought Steve and the rest of the band wanted to make an outright secret of these things. They covered a Beckett song, which even contained a lyric fairly similar to Hallowed, on one of their early B-Sides. It reappeared on Best of the B-Sides with a short blurb on who Beckett was; I think Steve would have been delighted if Beckett had gotten more attention this way. I would follow @fisherenterprises verdict that Steve and Dave were just very ill advised in not crediting Beckett in the case of Hallowed and Nomad, but I think he really was trying to pay them tribute.
I've known Life's Shadow since 2006, and it hasn't had much influence on my appreciation of these songs. Just because some lawyers got involved now won't change it either.
MindlessPieces
Educated Fool
Have you listened to Life's Shadow much?
I think there is quite a bit of difference in that instrumental section. I don't see that as that similar, now that I'm familiar with both songs.
But that's just me. Where I am at at the moment. I see inspiration, but I don't see copy.
The similarities don't bother me at all. I'm good with it.
I also really like Life's Shadow (for the moment) listening to it quite a lot lately.
I like that these older songs have dynamics, the drums come out nicer sounding.
Black Wizard
Pleb Hunter
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this.
EDIT: It's true that I haven't listened to this song in about ten years, and the similarities were much stronger in my memory. I think I should just let other people do the talking on this matter...
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My opinion of Hallowed is totally unchanged. The unique aspects of the storyline and the music itself are its strong points. With The Nomad, it's a track I rarely listen to other than when playing BNW in full anyway.
CriedWhenBrucieLeft
Meme Only Account
It seems to me people still conflate writing credits & royalties; and perhaps Maiden were poorly advised on this too. The whole "buying people out" (if true) on the earliest albums (in respect to stated writing credits) is proof of this. It doesn't look good.