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CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
I'm not talking about timing; it is indeed unfair to judge that based on isolated tracks. But poor picking & mis-steps during runs is just poor technique. It doesn't mean it doesn't sound good in the mix, but it would sound better if it was, well, played better.
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I wasn't talking about timing either. Those imperfections are a part of the band's identity.
 
Indeed, but the idea that a guitarist would hone their playing to include imperfect, inefficient picking action is nonsense. Adrian plays like this because he's had no formal teaching. The point is: JP could play like Adrian if he wanted to, but Adrian couldn't play like JP. It's like Tracey Emin's unmade bed at the Tate.
 
The Flash said:
I like the brightness the thin guitar sound brings on that song, fits the feel of the song pretty well imo.

Listening to that guitar track, it's very interesting how imprecise the track is. A lot of mumbling and sound jams. Works very well somehow.
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I know next to nothing about guitars but isn't this "brightness" as The Flash puts it what gives Brave New World it's clean sound? I prefer this sound to say Dance of Death or AMOLAD.
 
Brightness is often associated with a crisp, clean sound indeed but this relates more to how the whole mix is handled. DoD sounds over-compressed and clustered, which derives more from the relation of the different instruments than a dark (as opposed to bright) guitar sound. Hope this answered something.

On the argument between Cried and Flash: I have no problem with Maiden's laid-back approach to recording and the imperfections, but it does make me differentiate a very good guitarist from a guitar god.
 
Saapanael said:
but it does make me differentiate a very good guitarist from a guitar god.
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Guitar god in what expect though? John Petrucci is an example I won't use because he's a guitarist that's both incredibly technically proficient and creative at the same time. But what about someone like Chris Broderick? Amazingly technical player, can emulate anyone, but can't write a memorable solo to save his life and isn't a good songwriter. He could play circles around Adrian, but Adrian would still be a superior player despite his relatively limited technique.

I mean, are Chris Broderick, Michael Angelo Batio et al better guitarists than, say, B.B. King?
 
The Flash said:
Guitar god in what expect though? John Petrucci is an example I won't use because he's a guitarist that's both incredibly technically proficient and creative at the same time. But what about someone like Chris Broderick? Amazingly technical player, can emulate anyone, but can't write a memorable solo to save his life and isn't a good songwriter. He could play circles around Adrian, but Adrian would still be a superior player despite his relatively limited technique.

I mean, are Chris Broderick, Michael Angelo Batio et al better guitarists than, say, B.B. King?
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You're right, technical skill alone doesn't count for too much. What I meant was that in order to be a guitar god, you need to have amazing technical capabilities (which Petrucci has but H lacks) IN ADDITION to feeling and creativity (which Adrian has). The latter comes first and foremost - Michael Angelo might be the fastest shredder ever but the guy can't write a decent song and he's worryingly obsessed with multi-neck guitars. Not too familiar with Broderick but I've heard similar things said about him in the past. If it's true, he's surely inferior to Smith, BB King and whomever else. All in all, it's very rare that someone is both a magnificent songwriter and a technical beast on the guitar. The only guitarists I consider god-tier are Joe Satriani and John Petrucci, Jack Thammarat a potential third if he develops further.
By the way, it's not like these so called gods of guitar are technically unbeatable either. For an example, neither one is very proficient in sweep picking, while there are many kids who can sweep the hell out of a guitar but fail when it comes to feel-based techniques such as bending or vibrato.
 
That said, so far almost all the shredders I've been discouraged to try out have been pretty awesome, so I don't really get that "it's just technique" argument. Satch, Vai, MacAlpine, Malmsteen and even Paul Gilbert. All are catchy, enjoyable, heartfelt and make their albums more enjoyable than some of the "shred-less" ones I know. Tosin Abasi is pretty creative too, IMHO.

Yes, SOME bluesmen are comparable or even better in a way (Clapton, Knopfler, Allman, Gary Moore) but in general, I don't get the "blues is better" approach. I respect and quite enjoy BB King myself, but not more than any of the aforementioned.

And I honestly don't know where would I put Mike Oldfield, for example.

On the other hand, I am completely crazy about Thin Lizzy, so maybe I'm just a sucker for guitarists in general, I don't know. And, yeah, a Janickist! :p
 
JudasMyGuide said:
And yeah, you started comaring with BB King :D
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Compared two incredible technicians with no creativity and feeling with a player with very limited technique but with creativity and all the feeling in the world. Has nothing to do with "blues being better". Just two opposite ends of spectrums. You could replace B.B. King with John Frusciante or someone like that if you want to, it's just an example.
 
The Flash said:
Compared two incredible technicians with no creativity and feeling with a player with very limited technique but with creativity and all the feeling in the world. Has nothing to do with "blues being better". Just two opposite ends of spectrums. You could replace B.B. King with John Frusciante or someone like that if you want to, it's just an example.
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Okay, that makes a big difference, IMHO. What I wanted to say is that so far the heartless technicians have always seemed very... heartful to me, though I might have just picked the wrong ones. In fact, the only "heartless technician" guitarist I know might be Robert Fripp. And that's a weird case anyway.

That was mainly what I was trying to say. Some parts on Maximum Security by MacAlpine move me more than anything ol' BB ever did. So just my 2 cents.

By the way, from the beginning of this discussion (the sloppiness and all) I kept waiting for the seemingly inevitable descent into the "technique x feeling" discussion, everybody Clintoning one another ("That depends on what your definition of "is" is") and another Stupendous Boredom Medal in the end. So far it's been nice, civil and pleasant. MAIDENFANS RULE!!!!
 
To me "style", which is something that defines a particular player, is not something to be lauded if the player is incapable of playing any other way. I've criticised Satch in the past for barely having a right-hand (he barely used any advanced right-hand techniques), but one suspects he chooses to play like this i.e. he could play like Gilbert if he wanted to. Better to have different skills/techniques, than not; that's all I'm really saying.
 
CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
Better to have different skills/techniques, than not; that's all I'm really saying.
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I agree with this.

CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
To me "Style" is not something to be lauded if the player is incapable of playing any other way
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But not this.

Creating a good, original style is a major acclompishment in its own right. It's always something to be lauded, no matter what the extent of your arsenal is. B.B. King -I just think he's a great example for this convo so bear with me- almost exclusively played smooth small licks with a rich vibrato on soft blues songs. And he was a great guitarist.
 
JudasMyGuide said:
What I wanted to say is that so far the heartless technicians have always seemed very... heartful to me, though I might have just picked the wrong ones.
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Well I gave you a couple of examples. There's a difference between Michael Angelo Batio, Chris Broderick, Herman Li, Chris Impelliteri & John Petrucci, Joe Satriani, Marty Friedman and Al Di Meola, right?

This just comes down to the simple fact that creativity, originality and feel are the defining factors of great guitar playing. Not technique. These factors seperate Eric Clapton from a mediocre blues player at some pub, and it also seperates Satriani from Michael Angelo.

JudasMyGuide said:
In fact, the only "heartless technician" guitarist I know might be Robert Fripp.
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Blasphemy. You can't possibly argue this knowing Fripp is the mastermind of a band that put out Red, which is easily the darkest 70s prog rock record.

If you just mean his soloing, check out Baby's on Fire from Brian Eno's debut record.
 
The Flash said:
Creating a good, original style is a major acclompishment in its own right. It's always something to be lauded, no matter what the extent of your arsenal is. B.B. King -I just think he's a great example for this convo so bear with me- almost exclusively played smooth small licks with a rich vibrato on soft blues songs. And he was a great guitarist.
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I dunno, I think there's great skill in selection; in drawing on all your skills & deciding/developing your own style. I know you basically said this; but being only capable of playing one way, through technical deficiency, to me just sounds like falling into a style (rather than choosing it), or almost playing in a certain style by default. To bring this back to my first sentence: there's a real lack of skill in this, in my opinion.
The Flash said:
Well I gave you a couple of examples. There's a difference between Michael Angelo Batio, Chris Broderick, Herman Li, Chris Impelliteri & John Petrucci, Joe Satriani, Marty Friedman and Al Di Meola, right?
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Definitely.
 
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