Kosovo: Hoping for Peace

Kosovo has been given a lot of money in the past without concrete results.  However, I do not think this should be a rationale for not granting independence (and it was not).  Furthermore, cynicism about the past won't help the new nation now.  EU will place a lot of effort in Kosovo to stabilize the region, as a poor populace will be a thorn in their neighbours' sides. 

Thank you for the Croatia-EU bit Forostar.  I was not aware of this.
 
@Forostar, don't count on it ;) I mean, developing the underdeveloped. Croatia already received plethora of funds from EU. The money usually doesn't reach it's goal, for two reasons : the uncompetetive politicians don't know how to put a good diplomacy and use the money wisely, and the greedy politicians use the money for their own good.

For instance, EU wanted to participate funds for the tunnel inside the mountain that's between my city and the expressway, opening the third route to the expressway and cutting down bottlenecks on roads and such. However, authorities did not want to dig the damn thing back then, now when all of the city heads bought lands on that mountain and behind it, now they're going for the project. Wasteland worths nothing, but when you're digging the tunnel, the state needs to buy that wasteland from you, and you dictate the price.

Needless to say, EU won't give us the money now, we're digging again for the MMF funds and boosting our already sky-high debt, but some people are going to get themselves a nice new car, and a house on the island.
 
Zare said:
@Forostar, don't count on it ;) I mean, developing the underdeveloped. Croatia already received plethora of funds from EU. The money usually doesn't reach it's goal, for two reasons : the uncompetetive politicians don't know how to put a good diplomacy and use the money wisely, and the greedy politicians use the money for their own good.

For instance, EU wanted to participate funds for the tunnel inside the mountain that's between my city and the expressway, opening the third route to the expressway and cutting down bottlenecks on roads and such. However, authorities did not want to dig the damn thing back then, now when all of the city heads bought lands on that mountain and behind it, now they're going for the project. Wasteland worths nothing, but when you're digging the tunnel, the state needs to buy that wasteland from you, and you dictate the price.

Needless to say, EU won't give us the money now, we're digging again for the MMF funds and boosting our already sky-high debt, but some people are going to get themselves a nice new car, and a house on the island.

I never understood that about the nation.  I've seen roads take strange turns and loops just because someone is afraid to lose 10 square metres of land.  How much could it be possible worth?

Back to the topic at hand... a Ukranian policeman dies at the hands of Serb protesters.  The situation is escalating and I believe it will get much, much worse before it gets better.  Could be see sanctions against Serbia in the future, unless the Serbian government takes control of its citizens?  Just a prediction.

The Ukrainian policeman who died had been part of special police units that pulled Serb protesters out of the courthouse they had been occupying since Friday to protest Kosovo's Feb. 17 declaration of independence.

He was the first policeman killed in such violent clashes in Kosovo since 1999, when the U.N. took control of the territory from Serbia after a NATO air war halted a Serb crackdown against ethnic Albanian separatists.


Read more here.  I'm sorry it is Fox News.  :P
 
That genius of a man Bush said the US will be sending some weapons to Kosovo authorities (whose top positions like that of the PM are held by ex terrorists by the way) and claims it will aid in promoting peace. Gotta love Bush and his system of  logic (must be one of those nonstandard ones) where arming terrorists aids peace. And he can hardly say it is as to prevent Serb 'forces' from making any moves, because the Serbian army had been dismantled for most part.
 
Urizen said:
That genius of a man Bush said the US will be sending some weapons to Kosovo authorities (whose top positions like that of the PM are held by ex terrorists by the way) and claims it will aid in promoting peace. Gotta love Bush and his system of  logic (must be one of those nonstandard ones) where arming terrorists aids peace. And he can hardly say it is as to prevent Serb 'forces' from making any moves, because the Serbian army had been dismantled for most part.

I'm gonna go ahead and call shenanigans on this one.  Not on the terrorist part, but it is important to note that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter - after all, Hashim Thaci was a resistance fighter, and so was Fatmir Sejdiu (though he is far more widely respected internationally).  However, I think you need to arm Kosovo's burgeoning forces, otherwise you risk creating a power gap in the region.

Also, Serbia's army may not be as strong as it was back in 1990, but it is not small, either.  Plus they are getting tons of support from Russia, and Vladimir Putin & co. are very likely to send financial and arms aid to Serbia if needed.  Certainly, if it wasn't for the UN, Serbia would be able to place forces down into Kosovo without too much resistance.

Finally, while Bush might be supporting Kosovo's independence, so have many other nations.  I've written my MP urging him, as Defense Minister, to ask the PM to recognize Kosovo as well.  And if a decision was made to send arms towards Kosovo, it was likely undertaken by Secretary Robert Gates, a very capable man, unlike his predecessor.
 
Freedom fighters who fight for freedom by destroying centuries old monasteries and graveyards to show to the UN that the Serbs never lived there, ok. War criminals who aren't being prosecuted because Hague judges are afraid of what could happen to them, according to Carla del Ponte. I guess Al Qaeda is a freedom fighting organization too.

http://www.serbianna.com/news/2008/01838.shtml


I know that the US (and the EU?) needs to arm its allies.  http://sheikyermami.com/2007/05/01/alba ... ext/ 
Nice flags they got there.

Tons of support from Russia? Not really, no aid in weapons or money on sight for now.

So you support ethnically motivated acts of secession (acts which mean breaking the international law, by the way) against the countries whose borders are internationally recognized. Do you support other separatist movements in the world as well? Personally I don't see why the West is so eager in having an outpost of muslim extremism, drug and human trafficking getting its own state. Albanians already have one state. Then again, Serbia would be in serious problems with Kosovo remaining a part of her territory. Country would be very unstable with Albanians having a significant amount of power in the Parliament and not sharing the same basic interests with the other parties.

Yeah, Kanada recognized Kosovo. Of course many other nations recognized Kosovo, after the US recognized it.

Something about the interest that NATO has in holding Kosovo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXNECxVF9X0
 
The Fourteen Points

  • Open covenants of peace, openly arrived at, after which there shall be no private international understandings of any kind but diplomacy shall proceed always frankly and in the public view.
  • Absolute freedom of navigation upon the seas, outside territorial waters, alike in peace and in war, except as the seas may be closed in whole or in part by international action for the enforcement of international covenants.
  • The removal, so far as possible, of all economic barriers and the establishment of equality of trade conditions among all the nations consenting to the peace and associating themselves for its maintenance.
  • Adequate guarantees given and taken that national armaments will be reduced to the lowest point consistent with domestic safety.
  • A free, open-minded, and absolutely impartial adjustment of all colonial claims, based upon a strict observance of the principle that in determining all such questions of sovereignty the interests of the populations concerned must have equal weight with the equitable claims of the government whose title is to be determined.
  • The evacuation of all Russian territory and such a settlement of all questions affecting Russia as will secure the best and freest cooperation of the other nations of the world in obtaining for her an unhampered and unembarrassed opportunity for the independent determination of her own political development and national policy and assure her of a sincere welcome into the society of free nations under institutions of her own choosing; and, more than a welcome, assistance also of every kind that she may need and may herself desire.
  • The treatment accorded Russia by her sister nations in the months to come will be the acid test of their good will, of their comprehension of her needs as distinguished from their own interests, and of their intelligent and unselfish sympathy.
    Belgium, the whole world will agree, must be evacuated and restored, without any attempt to limit the sovereignty which she enjoys in common with all other free nations. No other single act will serve as this will serve to restore confidence among the nations in the laws which they have themselves set and determined for the government of their relations with one another. Without this healing act the whole structure and validity of international law is forever impaired.
  • All French territory should be freed and the invaded portions restored, and the wrong done to France by Prussia in 1871 in the matter of Alsace-Lorraine, which has unsettled the peace of the world for nearly fifty years, should be righted, in order that peace may once more be made secure in the interest of all.
  • A readjustment of the frontiers of Italy should be effected along clearly recognizable lines of nationality.
  • The peoples of Austria-Hungary, whose place among the nations we wish to see safeguarded and assured, should be accorded the freest opportunity to autonomous development.
  • Romania, Serbia, and Montenegro should be evacuated; occupied territories restored; Serbia accorded free and secure access to the sea; and the relations of the several Balkan states to one another determined by friendly counsel along historically established lines of allegiance and nationality; and international guarantees of the political and economic independence and territorial integrity of the several Balkan states should be entered into.
  • The Turkish portion of the present Ottoman Empire should be assured a secure sovereignty, but the other nationalities which are now under Turkish rule should be assured an undoubted security of life and an absolutely unmolested opportunity of autonomous development, and the Dardanelles should be permanently opened as a free passage to the ships and commerce of all nations under international guarantees.
  • An independent Polish state should be erected which should include the territories inhabited by indisputably Polish populations, which should be assured a free and secure access to the sea, and whose political and economic independence and territorial integrity should be guaranteed by international covenant.
  • A general association of nations must be formed under specific covenants for the purpose of affording mutual guarantees of political independence and territorial integrity to great and small states alike.
 
Loose, I fail to realize exactly how does this relates to my post, presuming you had an intention of replying to it that is.
 
The Fourteen Points are a very famous speech by President Woodrow Wilson given near the end of the First World War.  It set forth the ideal of national self-determination that the UN adopted in it's formation and in its Universal Declaration of Human rights.  In essence; if Kosovars choose to be independent, then Serbians have no right to stop them, and it is the duty of the free peoples of the world to support Kosovar independence.

If Quebec chooses to be independent, then Canada has no right to stop it, and it is the duty of the free peoples of the world to support Quebecois independence.

If Tibet chooses to be independent, then China has no right to stop it, and it is the duty of the free peoples of the world to support Tibet's independence.

If Chechnya chooses to be independent, then Russia has no right to stop it, and it is the duty of the free peoples of the world to support Chechen independence.

Of course, such decisions must be undertaken by a majority of the people residing in the area, which I believe has occurred in Kosovo through their electoral decisions; which almost occurred in Quebec in 1995; which China and Russia have not allowed but there should certainly be pressure to do so.

My point is thus: people of different nationalities can live in a country together.  But they shouldn't have to.
 
Tibet wants something less than independence -authonomy- and still can't have it.
And I imagine that north Kosovars who are Serbians don't want to be governed by Albanians either.
Albanians imigrated to Kosovo during centuries, in the same way that Mexicans do in United States today.
What US citizens would say if Spanish speakers declared their indipendance inside US territories on day?

National self-determination is fine -in theory, in reality is much more complicated, and mostly can highly manipulate in the favour of courent status qvo
 
LooseCannon said:
The Fourteen Points are a very famous speech by President Woodrow Wilson given near the end of the First World War.  It set forth the ideal of national self-determination that the UN adopted in it's formation and in its Universal Declaration of Human rights.  In essence; if Kosovars choose to be independent, then Serbians have no right to stop them, and it is the duty of the free peoples of the world to support Kosovar independence.

If Quebec chooses to be independent, then Canada has no right to stop it, and it is the duty of the free peoples of the world to support Quebecois independence.

If Tibet chooses to be independent, then China has no right to stop it, and it is the duty of the free peoples of the world to support Tibet's independence.

If Chechnya chooses to be independent, then Russia has no right to stop it, and it is the duty of the free peoples of the world to support Chechen independence.

Of course, such decisions must be undertaken by a majority of the people residing in the area, which I believe has occurred in Kosovo through their electoral decisions; which almost occurred in Quebec in 1995; which China and Russia have not allowed but there should certainly be pressure to do so.

My point is thus: people of different nationalities can live in a country together.  But they shouldn't have to.



The act of Kosovo declaring independance is not legal, otherwise when Ban Ki Mun was asked whether it was legal for Kosovo to become independent after the security counsel meeting in february, he would have said yes instead of not replying at all. It is illegal also because it is against the international law for regions to break off from a country whose borders are internationally recognized and whose territorial integrity and sovereignty is guaranteed by the resolution of the UN 1244.

Besides that why haven't you pointed out exactly where does it say that an ethnic minority in a country can simply declare independence as if they have the right to do it, as if it is only of their concern? Why didn't the UK let the Falkland islands located some few thousand miles away from its historical region go?



If an ethnic community supported by the US wishes to become independent so the US can extend its domain and influence then it's the duty of the 'free' peoples to support what the US tells them to. I see...

It is the duty of the 'free' world to support an act of secession wholly unlawful and the conditions for which were set up only as a result of centuries  of planned, systematic, forced change of the ethnic structure. So anyone can come into a country, multiply extremely fast, terrorize the existing population, and get itself a country?

As for Tibet, yeah, I realize the US needs to get itself closer to rising China so it could keep a close eye on it. They tried doing it couple of times before: Korean war, The Vietnam war... and yet it was always the northern part of the country they were unable to control... Maybe they could finally succeed with Tibet. Just stir up the popular opinion some more, with a few more movies, cry out about human rights etc. And I think none of us needs to be reminded of just how dedicated the US government is to the protection of 'human rights'.
 
Basically almost the whole EU surrounding hotheaded Serbia thinks enough is enough.
Blame the real events, the actual causes leading to Kosovo's separation. Rather blame the idiotic Serbian leaders of the past, and the people who voted for them, for seeding hate and keeping people dumb and ignorant.
 
Urizen said:
The act of Kosovo declaring independance is not legal, otherwise when Ban Ki Mun was asked whether it was legal for Kosovo to become independent after the security counsel meeting in february, he would have said yes instead of not replying at all. It is illegal also because it is against the international law for regions to break off from a country whose borders are internationally recognized and whose territorial integrity and sovereignty is guaranteed by the resolution of the UN 1244.

Ban Ki-Moon is South Korean.  But it is not the Secretary-General's job to comment on the legality of certain things; instead, it is the job of the Secretary-General to create policy decisions.  As a South Korean, his delegation has nothing to say in the Security Council.  That power is held by the five veto-emboldened members.

UN Resolution 1244 guarantees that Kosovo would remain part of Serbia until a Kosovo Status Process could be convened.  Though that Status Process was not fulfilled, one can argue that events have made the Status Process pointless.  It can also be said that the Serbian-control clause was nullified as the FRY finished collapsing; though I believe that UNSCR 1244 would be nullified simply because it is a RESOLUTION, not a law.

International law consists of treaties all participant nations agree to hold as the highest laws of the land, say, the Geneva Conventions.  A UN Security Council Resolution is not binding.  Plus, it seems like the original resolution was flawed, as it gives no right to Kosovars to choose their own independence.

Besides that why haven't you pointed out exactly where does it say that an ethnic minority in a country can simply declare independence as if they have the right to do it, as if it is only of their concern? Why didn't the UK let the Falkland islands located some few thousand miles away from its historical region go?

The Declaration of Human Rights, I think it's clause 26?  My copy's not in front of me currently.  It was a similar argument used to allow the breakup of Yugoslavia into all those states...Bosnia, Croatia, Montenegro, Macedonia, Slovenia, and now Kosovo and Serbia.  Each with their own cultures and traditions.  And the Falkland Islands did not make a movement towards independence or altering allegiance; they were conquered by a separate political entity.

If an ethnic community supported by the US wishes to become independent so the US can extend its domain and influence then it's the duty of the 'free' peoples to support what the US tells them to. I see...

It is the duty of the 'free' world to support an act of secession wholly unlawful and the conditions for which were set up only as a result of centuries  of planned, systematic, forced change of the ethnic structure. So anyone can come into a country, multiply extremely fast, terrorize the existing population, and get itself a country?

This is utter nonsense.  "Ethnic structure"?  What the hell is that?  Yes.  People can come into the culture, overwhelm it, and create their own unique nation out of it.  Why?  Because of precedent.  The United States, Canada, Israel...all are examples of that sort of behaviour.  However, the existence of Kosovo goes back, yes, centuries, something like 800 years since it was wholly Serbian.  Maybe we should go back further and give it all to Italy, since Rome ruled that beforehand.

And in case you hadn't noticed, the United States is not exactly everyone's favourite country nowadays.  Most Western nations do what they think is right.  Canada, France, Germany, Italy...we didn't follow the US into Iraq, did we?  Assuming we do what the US tells us is a serious fallacy.

As for Tibet, yeah, I realize the US needs to get itself closer to rising China so it could keep a close eye on it. They tried doing it couple of times before: Korean war, The Vietnam war... and yet it was always the northern part of the country they were unable to control... Maybe they could finally succeed with Tibet. Just stir up the popular opinion some more, with a few more movies, cry out about human rights etc. And I think none of us needs to be reminded of just how dedicated the US government is to the protection of 'human rights'.

The current US administration doesn't have a great track record with human rights, no.  But again, who says the United States has to be leading this?  Personally, I would like to see my country lead with a ban of Chinese imports.  It might be impossible to do without America, because our economies are so tightly linked, but what's stopping the EU?  Just, no more Chinese goods.  Period.

The United States has never desired a war with the PRC.  They fought the PRC in Korea, but originally that was about the Soviet sphere; same with Vietnam (a nation perpetually fearful of their larger, northern neighbours).  Right now it would be very difficult for the US to do much; but see the Tibet thread for more on my opinions there.

Let me ask you a question:

Why does Kosovo *not* deserve independence?  What makes their people deserve to live in a nation where their particular culture is outweighed and outvoted?  Why should they not have a voice all their own?
 
Forostar said:
Basically almost the whole EU surrounding hotheaded Serbia thinks enough is enough.
Blame the real events, the actual causes leading to Kosovo's separation. Rather blame the idiotic Serbian leaders of the past, and the people who voted for them, for seeding hate and keeping people dumb and ignorant.

German people has voted for Hitler, but Germany was never punished like Serbia does.
 
Forostar said:
I don't think that you would believe me if I say Germany was punished more than Serbia.

No I wouldn't.
Germany was highly helped after the war, and very soon became an economical giant.
Immigrants came from many countries massively, and helped Germany to get on its feet again
And even this separation of West -East Germany.......
Well, Germans didn't really believe it gonna last forever
So that's why I don't believe that Germany was punished more than Serbia
.........Except if you speak about war losses -but this is a completely different thing
 
WHAT BULLSHIT!


dresden_ruins.jpg


Dresden.

3201347.jpg


Hamburg.

ce-cologne1.jpeg


Cologne.

3313153.jpg


Frankfurt.

red_army_berlin.jpg


Berlin.

lpde1945.gif


Germany 1945: Orange territory now Polish, dark pink territory now Russian, yellow territory Communist until 1989.

y, you have completely disqualified yourself with your post. Serbia has lost a few territories that do not even have a Serbian majority. Germany was completely destroyed after the war, lost a third of its territory and was divided- although most Germans indeed did not believe this would last forever, that is no argument. The East Germans lived in a Stalinist dictatorship for FORTY YEARS after the war ended. People got shot when they tried to escape. West Germany was reconstructed, it's true, but it was completely destroyed before. Serbia was not after the Balkan War. Moreover, West Germany expressed a genuine desire to become a democracy, and that's why it, step by step, was readmitted in the international community. Serbia hasn't, but most countries still try to keep it in the international community.

Before you're posting bullshit like that, better reassure yourself that you know what you're talking about. Here's some further impressions that might help you to reconsider your statement:

checkpoint-charlie_20041031_dx_0179.jpg


Crosses in memory of those shot at the Berlin Wall.

x27-6.jpg


East German soldier jumps over barbwire and flees to West Berlin on 13. August 1961, the day the wall was built.

000043.JPG


Border between East and West Germany.



And the people of Kosovo declared their independence.


Booh.

Fucking.

Hooh.
 
Forostar said:
Fine, then I don't need to explain it.

I would like to hear your reasoning though,
if you have the right arguments I could change of view
Besides, that's what we are doing here, we discuss right ?

@Perun : these are war losses and I speak for what happened after the war, not during
 
y said:
@Perun : these are war losses and I speak for what happened after the war, not during

Read your history. The partition, Stalinist dictatorship, wall and wall dead were after the war.

Besides, the independence of Kosovo is indirectly a "war loss" for Serbia. Ever since 1999, Kosovo has not been under Serb control, and this is really just a further step.

I posted those pictures of the destroyed German cities to shake you and make you back away from your moronic statement that Serbia is treated more harshly than Germany. The bombs that fell on Serbia in 1999 were unfortunate, but are in no way comparable to the dimensions of what happened in Germany between 1941 and 1945.

And allow me to state again.

An oppressed majority declares its independence.

Booh.

Fucking.

Hooh.
 
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