Kosovo: Hoping for Peace

LC is right. Every case is to be analysed separately. I have yet to hear an objective reasoning as to why the Kosovars can't have their own country. In fact, I have yet to hear a single reasoning that doesn't come down to how the world hates Serbia.

Urizen, you are accusing the NATO of hypocrisy, and are a prime hypocrite yourself. You are so concerned about how the Serbs of Kosovo are an oppressed minority, but you fail to mention what happened to the Albanians when they were a minority in Yugoslavia.
 
Urizen said:
How could this be when that which is expressed in that video is not what the Serbian leadership today goes by? Not to mention you haven't refuted  what the video talks about.
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That video has V. Šešelj spouting the worst of Serbian leadership hateful rhetoric because:
1. It completely ignores the histories of other Slavic nationalities within the region.  "Everything is Serbian".  Bosnians, Croatians, etc.  Everything is Serbian according to him.  What a load of crock!
2. It is typical of Serbs to revert to their old "the world hates us" speeches, completely ignoring the role of Serbian government's attrocities.  Serbian citizens have and still do suffer from a persecution complex.

There is more in details, but these two points are the gist of what is wrong with your leaders.

The only thing missing from that video is a specific sentence that starts with "back in 1389 the [insert negative adjective] Ottoman Empire..." line.  Get the FUCK OVER IT!  However, the racist Šešelj did mention the Ottoman Empire.  He couldn't completely hold back, could he?

Boris Tadić will have a nearly impossible time in quenching the overwhelming self-absorption and hatred many of Serbs feel toward Europe, and Kosova in particular.  At least, enough Serbs were level-headed enough to vote for Tadić.

Finally, if you agree with Šešelj, you have way bigger mental problems than I ever imagined!

EDIT: Even though I could edit that last sentence to take the sting out, I will leave it on as it genuinely expresses my emotions at the time.
 
A mate of mine has a Serb friend who claimed that Alexander the Great was Serb. And he was serious about that.
 
Perun said:
A mate of mine has a Serb friend who claimed that Alexander the Great was Serb. And he was serious about that.
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Nationalism is so fucking pathetic  :mad:
Even if the era of nation states should belong -normaly- to the past, this is not the case for south Balkanic countries 
It was a lie when national states commenced to appear,
but some hundrend years after, seeing leaders and people using those same o bullshits, trying to identify themselves...
...that's a realy scary thing

 
 
Nation-states are very important in developing a stronger world order.  Without nationalism, the EU wouldn't be possible.

Why?

Because it is our ability to identify strongly as a nation that allows us to join closer with others, once the initial fervor has passed.  Take Scotland's nationalism.  Yes, there is a small independence movement there, but overall, they are rather pleased to be part of the UK.  They know they're Scottish, but as Scots, they have a place within the greater union.  Eventually, this expands.  It's possible to be French AND European.  Or German AND European.  Or Virginian AND American.  Etc.  Then the earlier nationalism fades to be replaced by a new one...and then NORAD fights a big war against the EU.
 
Scottish is a very healthy one, and generaly everywhere in Western Europe (exept Basque, and Corsican) we can find healthy nationalisms
But in southern Balkans is just not the case, or Yugoslavia should never be splited
Your European exaples are fine, but States nationalism is a joke -exept maybe Texas
In any case, I don't like nationalism and its principes
 
y said:
Scottish is a very healthy one, and generaly everywhere in Western Europe (exept Basque, and Corsican) we can find healthy nationalisms
But in southern Balkans is just not the case, or Yugoslavia should never be splited
Your European exaples are fine, but States nationalism is a joke -exept maybe Texas
In any case, I don't like nationalism and its principes
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Splitting Yugoslavia was the only sane choice.
 
Yugoslavia was a terrible, terrible mistake by the Allies following World War 1.  There are, what, six distinct cultures in the region?  (Bosnia, Croatia, Slovenia, Serbia, Macedonia, Kosovo...yeah, six.)  So, instead of making each a nation and giving each culture its own seat at the League of Nations, they made one nation and imposed Serb domination on them - in the form of a king!  Not even a democratic government, like Czechoslovakia received, but a monarchy of Serb domination.  Yeah, no wonder they're pissed off.

100 years down the road, it is possible that Serbia, Macedonia, Croatia and all those nationalities will reconcile and realize that their history isn't so terribly different after all.  But until then, these areas deserve the right to determine their own destiny.
 
And my brother left for Kosovo today (they'll technically fly there tomorrow, but he went to Stockholm to prepare and so forth) alongside the other KFOR soldiers. I'm very proud of him, but the apartment feels somewhat empty.  :( 6 months without him.
 
Ibid.  With any luck there won't be any violence at all and he'll be home safe and sound.
 
LooseCannon said:
Ibid.  With any luck there won't be any violence at all and he'll be home safe and sound.
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Yes, and fortunately he's got the most secure position in his squad/group. Sitting by a radio in a tank.  :)
 
LooseCannon said:
  There are, what, six distinct cultures in the region?  (Bosnia, Croatia, Slovenia, Serbia, Macedonia, Kosovo...yeah, six.) 
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hmmmmmmm, I'm afraid there are a lot more than that ; in Bosnia we have four cultures and three religions, while in Macedonia apart from the slavic part the half of the population are Albans, and we have some Turks & Vlachs too
 
I was, of course, oversimplifying.  But your point is taken.  However, those cultures are dominant, and seem (SEEM!) to have established somewhat stable relations within their own borders.
 
LooseCannon said:
I was, of course, oversimplifying.  But your point is taken.  However, those cultures are dominant, and seem (SEEM!) to have established somewhat stable relations within their own borders.
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let's hope you're right
what I see, is a possible division of the (artificial anyway) state of Bosnia,
while the borders of Kosovo -Macedonia are not stable at all since Kosovo's idependance
(Albanian party of Macedoia's parliament has caused early elections only some days after the declaration of independance) 

to make you understand how flexible are the borders between Kosovo -Macedonia, I only tell you that the biggest millitary camp in the world (Bondsteel)
is extended into both countries !! (mostly in Kosovo though)

the only thing that could save the situation is the oil tube AMBO, which makes US to want a relative stability in the region

important note ---->Dick Cheny, the vice president of USA has some important shares in Halliburton company, which has studied the AMBO project
 
I don't see Bosnia splitting up.  If that was the case, the split would have happened right after the war.  Besides every major city has pockets of at least two ethnic groups.  The demarkation of three separate nations, two of which would supposedly join Croatia and Serbia, would be significantly arbitrary and would leave many on the "wrong" side of the border. 

Also, I doubt the UN will allow ethnic Albanians to proclaim their own country within FYRO-Macedonia, so long as the country of FYROM is a practicing democracy.
 
____no5 said:
let's hope you're right
what I see, is a possible division of the (artificial anyway) state of Bosnia,
while the borders of Kosovo -Macedonia are not stable at all since Kosovo's idependance
(Albanian party of Macedoia's parliament has caused early elections only some days after the declaration of independance) 

to make you understand how flexible are the borders between Kosovo -Macedonia, I only tell you that the biggest millitary camp in the world (Bondsteel)
is extended into both countries !! (mostly in Kosovo though)

the only thing that could save the situation is the oil tube AMBO, which makes US to want a relative stability in the region

important note ---->Dick Cheny, the vice president of USA has some important shares in Halliburton company, which has studied the AMBO project
Click to expand...

My understanding of the situation in Bosnia is that the various cultures have agreed to work together.  Which seems fine by me.  It's really somewhat similar to the arrangement we have in Canada, or possibly more accurately, New Zealand.  I don't think it's bad and that each culture needs to have it's own country.  But if it really wants it, it should be considered.  Bosnia would be very difficult to partition further.  And I am glad the violence there seems to be mostly done.

And as I understand about Bondsteel, it was originally built completely in Kosovo, but things are changing.  I think it'll settle out quickly enough, though, and the borders should be finalized quickly enough.
 
Here is an update on this situation.  Kosovo has adopted a new constitution that will mean a lot to the newest European nation, but will mean nothing to the Serbians living in Kosovo, particularly in the northern part.  Serbian president, altough friendly to the EU, does not support the new constitution.  Some clashes still exists between the two sides and the following article talks about one such incident.

Yax, how is your brother doing?

Newly independent Kosovo's constitution enters force

4 hours ago

PRISTINA (AFP) — Kosovo's constitution entered into force Sunday, four months after it split from Serbia, opening the way for majority Albanians take over from a nine-year-old UN mission under European guidance.

President Fatmir Sejdiu marked the imposition of the newly independent state's first charter by signing a set of laws for the first time, in the presence of European Union special representative Peter Feith.

"The coming into force today of the constitution marks the completion of the cycle of building the state," said Sejdiu.

"The constitution is the main compass ... which will present the main orientation for our path," the president said, adding it would help Kosovo with its EU and NATO integration.

"Adopting the constitution represents the second historic moment for Kosovo after the proclamation of independence" from Serbia on February 17, said Sejdiu.

But responding to the move, Belgrade, which still regards Kosovo as an integral part of its territory and medieval heartland, said it considered the constitution as illegal and dangerous.

"Serbia does not accept the proclamation of Kosovo's constitution as a legal fact," President Boris Tadic told reporters in the Serbian capital, adding the move was "a political event with ... harmful consequences."

UN chief Ban Ki-moon this week gave Sejdiu and Tadic his plans to restructure the UN mission in Kosovo -- UNMIK -- by transferring many of its powers to local institutions and the European Union.

The power shake-up is based on a blueprint for Kosovo's "supervised independence" put forth by UN special envoy Martti Ahtisaari, after status talks between Kosovo Albanian and Serbian leaders collapsed at the end of 2006.

The constitution, unanimously approved by Kosovo's parliament on April 9, paves the way for the introduction of EULEX, a 2,000-strong European Union police and justice mission.

In line with the Ahtisaari settlement, it enshrines principles of a multi-ethnic society governing itself democratically with full respect for the rule of law and international human rights standards.

As part of moves to implement the charter, Kosovo this week passed laws on a national anthem and the creation of a security force to be trained by NATO, which still has 15,000 troops in the volatile territory.

According to the law, the force of 2,500 will be professional, multi-ethnic, civilian-controlled and possess no heavy weapons.

But it remains unclear how the constitution will be imposed in areas populated by Serbs, particularly in the ethnically divided northern Kosovo town of Mitrovica, where violence has repeatedly flared since independence.

In the latest clash at the weekend, a police officer and a man suffered wounds during a gun battle in the southern Albanian-populated half of the flashpoint town.

"For Albanians, (the constitution) probably means something, but for Serbs, it (means) absolutely nothing," Oliver Ivanovic, a moderate Kosovo Serb leader, said on Sunday.

"It has lessened the possibility that Serbs and Albanians converge in the future.

"Serbs will be more inclined to turn to their parallel institutions, which could lead to more conflict," said Ivanovic, expressing regret at the lost opportunity for a settlement agreed by both sides.

UNMIK has run Kosovo since 1999, when NATO forces took control of it after ousting forces loyal to late autocratic Serbian president Slobodan Milosevic.

The independence of Kosovo, whose Albanians outnumber Serbs and other minorities by more than nine-to-one, has been recognised by around 40 nations including the United States and most EU members.

But Russia, a traditional ally of Serbia, effectively blocked UN approval of the Ahtisaari plan before the UN Security Council where it is a veto-wielding permanent member.


Source.
 
Genghis: He was just home at leave for two weeks, but left for some 15 hours ago.

He says it's tense but stable. But shots are fired everyday. Not at KFOR but the albanians and serbs firing at each other or occassionally a "happy shooting", meaning they shoot in the air to celebrate something or just for fun. The Albanians are happy they are there, shown by them stopping for KFOR's vehicles, both when they are supposed to and when they aren't. Keep in mind, that they drive like crazy and never stops for anyone, not even lights. So it's a good sign.

But, every time a shot's been fired, noone's heard a thing. "What, what shot? I didn't hear", Despite KFOR being able to hear it from two kilometers away.
 
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