Kevin Shirley’s production of Senjutsu

Yeah, I thought about the synths the same as you when I first listened to the album. But, then I remembered that a lot of the 70’s rock/metal albums were like that.

Rainbow, Deep Purple, Wishbone Ash, Status Quo, Queen, Procal Harum used keyboards, and vocal harmonies. Okay, they weren’t synthesisers back then, but the sound was very similar.

I think going by what the band’s been saying, it’s like they’re trying to recapture that proggy proto metal vibe and blend it with the sound they have now. Writing On The Wall and Days of Future Past have like a folksy Thin Lizzy vibe, whilst Death of the Celts is almost like a shanty.

What I did, I turned the volume down and just chilled and listened to it to take everything in. Then the next time I gave it full blast, I thought I’ve got it now. I understand why now they’ve used the synths the way they have
 
I dont have an issue for the most part, except for how drowned out Bruce can sound, one example would be the title track during the
"Hear them coming, Ready now we wait, Must be steadfast......." its very quiet and buried in the mix
 
The production sounds great to me. This is the second best sounding album from the reunion era (behind only BNW). It's definitely better than TBOS - the sound of the drums, the guitars/solos and the overall sound is clearer. The mix of the vocals is not so different imo (maybe it's slightly better in Senjutsu).
 
Here's what we'll have to do:
- organize a petition for Maiden to change producer
- let that petition be signed by every member of this and the official forum, as well as their friends
- and shove it up your butt. :lol:
 
Shirley is Maiden's engineer, not producer. He did his job very well, as he does. He doesn't have a say (for 20+ years, since day 1) in sound or arrangements. By his own addmission, he's there to "mic up guitarist's cabinets" and let them be themselves, he tweaked drum sound only in BNW and has opinion that if Nicko tunes his drums correctly they're going to sound good.

As an engineer he's there to capture their sound.

Steve Harris is chiefly Maiden's producer but on this album we can see that Smith has got some leverage when it comes to his tracks.
If you recall the interviews, it's Steve that wanted guitarists to play specific kind of solos and worked with them on it. That's absolutely the job that producer does.

Maiden sounds the way Maiden wants to sound, Shirley is just the means to get that on tape. If you have problem with the way Maiden sounds it's down to Harris in most cases.

Maiden never had a Bob Rock - certainly not that down in career when Metallica hired him.
He totally changed the way band does things and introduced a 'big name producer' to the band (and to the genre I'd say).

Birch was more of a big name engineer. Apart from the TNOTB scream story with Dickinson, and Murray/Smith saying he gave them a hard time with solo recording (they say that about Shirley too), where are his big name producer interventions to the albums?

He wasn't the type and eventually Maiden found a replacement in the same kind of a professional.

Maiden is in essence self produced since the mid 80s.
The things you need to look for if you like 80s but dislike newer stuff. The 80s haven't got a thick guitar sound and they haven't got an orchestration going and the drums usually sound like shit. I think albums such as Piece of Mind or Powerslave have been recorded very organically, L-R separation of guitars, multitrack here and there, very wide sound. I think album such as AMOLAD has been done the same. The difference in sound is the difference in amps, drums, instruments and arrangements, nothing more to it. You will find that the greatest difference between typical 'hard rock' amp sound is between early 80s and early 90s. The early 90s amps are what we consider 'modern metal sound' today.

The definition of Statocaster into Marshall remains but the sound is different. Back in 70s/early 80s, those were low gain pups and low gain amps. After mid 80s those were high gain hums and high gain amps.
 

Just bear in mind, that people criticizing Maiden and Shirley's production may actually want Maiden to sound like the example in the above thread.
 

Just as a side note, Queen made a point in the 1970s that they did not use synthesisers, to the extent that it was noted in the liner notes to all their 70's albums. Vocal harmonies, yes, studio tricks, yes. But no synths; all sound effects were done using the traditional guitar/bass/drum setup together with a piano. The first time they ever used a synth was on The Game in 1980.
 
Just as a side note, Queen made a point in the 1970s that they did not use synthesisers, to the extent that it was noted in the liner notes to all their 70's albums. Vocal harmonies, yes, studio tricks, yes. But no synths; all sound effects were done using the traditional guitar/bass/drum setup together with a piano. The first time they ever used a synth was on The Game in 1980.
If you read what I say, I said that there were no synths in the 70’s, but the sounds are similar.
 
read what I said. I do say they didn’t use synthesisers back then. Not my fault you’re cherry picking

I read what you said. I wasn't cherrypicking, I was merely trying to add another angle to it without any hidden intention or agenda against you.
 
Well, why the “yeah yeah yeah” for then?

Now I’m thinking there is a hidden agenda.

“You can’t play heavy metal on synthesisers” says Bruce to a Polish Maiden fan.

Yeah, you’re behind this, aren’t you?
 
Shirley is Maiden's engineer, not producer. He did his job very well, as he does. He doesn't have a say (for 20+ years, since day 1) in sound or arrangements. By his own addmission, he's there to "mic up guitarist's cabinets" and let them be themselves, he tweaked drum sound only in BNW and has opinion that if Nicko tunes his drums correctly they're going to sound good.

As an engineer he's there to capture their sound.

Steve Harris is chiefly Maiden's producer but on this album we can see that Smith has got some leverage when it comes to his tracks.
If you recall the interviews, it's Steve that wanted guitarists to play specific kind of solos and worked with them on it. That's absolutely the job that producer does.

Maiden sounds the way Maiden wants to sound, Shirley is just the means to get that on tape. If you have problem with the way Maiden sounds it's down to Harris in most cases.

Maiden never had a Bob Rock - certainly not that down in career when Metallica hired him.
He totally changed the way band does things and introduced a 'big name producer' to the band (and to the genre I'd say).

Birch was more of a big name engineer. Apart from the TNOTB scream story with Dickinson, and Murray/Smith saying he gave them a hard time with solo recording (they say that about Shirley too), where are his big name producer interventions to the albums?

He wasn't the type and eventually Maiden found a replacement in the same kind of a professional.

Maiden is in essence self produced since the mid 80s.
The things you need to look for if you like 80s but dislike newer stuff. The 80s haven't got a thick guitar sound and they haven't got an orchestration going and the drums usually sound like shit. I think albums such as Piece of Mind or Powerslave have been recorded very organically, L-R separation of guitars, multitrack here and there, very wide sound. I think album such as AMOLAD has been done the same. The difference in sound is the difference in amps, drums, instruments and arrangements, nothing more to it. You will find that the greatest difference between typical 'hard rock' amp sound is between early 80s and early 90s. The early 90s amps are what we consider 'modern metal sound' today.

The definition of Statocaster into Marshall remains but the sound is different. Back in 70s/early 80s, those were low gain pups and low gain amps. After mid 80s those were high gain hums and high gain amps.
I think while many producers do have a lot more control than Shirley does, it doesn't make him less of a producer, or only an engineer. Not all producers have that much control over an albums structure and contents.
 
Of course.
But the context here is "I don't like the way this Maiden sounds so I blame Shirley for it"
 
Yes, I guess if (forces in) Maiden wanted it to sound different that would have been done. Or at least tried.

I think Shirley said that he had a role in selecting (parts of) recorded solos. Surely more input than recording indeed.
 
Correct again but that's missing my point completely.
Again, the style of solos is hardly something that people throw a criticism at.

People critique
- the very sound - mostly of guitars and drums
- the production scope - too dry, "live in studio", lack of vocal layering, etc.
- the arrangements - length of songs and Harris' songwriting tendencies

People tie Shirley to all three points because #1 and #2 are "production" and he's "the producer" while at #3 "the producer" should do more than engineering job and force arrangement. Average Shirley critic believes that he should cut the Harris arrangement into shorter package and force the executive role of the producer in the band.
 
It's like Lars vs Napster where Lars was pissed that his own audience would pirate unfinished material from the studio but he can't attack his own fans, can he? So he went after Napster.

Same shit, if you don't like reunion sound and songs as-they-are, you don't appreciate creative choices made by Harris, Smith and Dickinson. Say it out loud. Don't blame a 3rd party.
 
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