ISIS Thread

I'll try but I thought your choice of words was very fitting to what I wanted to reply. No parody intended. These are serious answers.

Because this is the problem: the West cannot and does not ignore what people with totalitarian ideologies do, and plan to do. If actions and plans lead to (already present) focus on the Middle East, then what else do we expect. Look in another direction?

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At the same time, the West has to look at "internal" problems. Treat all people the same, and give them the same chances and rights in society.
 
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Forostar said:
I'll try but I thought your choice of words was very fitting to what I wanted to reply. No parody intended. These are serious answers.

Because this is the problem: the West cannot and does not ignore what people with totalitarian ideologies do. If that leads to (already present) focus on the Middle East, then what else do we expect. Look in another direction?
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What you don't realize is Islamic extremists in the Middle East are filled with even more rage against Western countries when they meddle in. Iraqi government doesn't want extremists thriving. Syrian government doesn't want extremists thriving. Qatar doesn't. Saudi Arabia doesn't. United Arab Emirates doesn't. Jordan doesn't. Leave it to these countries to get rid of the extremists. Trust me, Sunnis fixing the problems Sunnis present is a way healthier way to deal with this. When West meddles in, even the more moderate Sunnis might fall into the impression of "This is Christianity vs. Islam". The making of Middle East problems an external matter instead of an internal matter was a crucial mistake. There's only reason for that mistake: Middle East is a place of geopolitical importance. There's Islamist extremists in Africa as well. They run havoc in Mauritania. Boko Haram commits awful crimes in Nigeria and actually has solid foundations and members in France. But nobody gives a shit about them because Africa doesn't have the strategical importance Middle East does.
 
I do realize what you say. And I especially pity what goes on in Africa because there's not enough attention for it.

But when the shit hits the fan in the West, when Western values are attacked in the West, that's going to have priority for people who live in the West.
People are afraid to loose hard-fought values, and want to protect not only these values, but also the people who live in the West.
 
But the coalition of forces against ISIS was formed before they did anything against the Western values. They were operating solely in Iraq and Syria. ISIS target is not Western values or other religions. Their target is the non-Sunnis/irreligion in Muslim populated areas. Like Shiites, Yazidis, Hindus and Atheists. Also secularists.

I'm not saying the West can't do anything about it. But military interventions are not the way. The US, for example, can stop meddling in with Iraq and oppressing its Sunni population. It's stated in the article Perun posted as well. Sunni population in Iraq prefers ISIS to the US-influenced government regime because they were massively discriminated after Iraq War. It's a direct outcome of the unnecessary Western intervention there.
 
I am afraid that I'm drawing it bigger than "just" IS. But I find it hard to leave out Western perception from this discussion. People with totalitarian ideologies (whoever they represent) have committed murder in the West before these operations took place.

I dare to say that without any operation, there'd still be attacks. That's what people with totalitarian ideologies tend to do: eveyone who thinks and says different needs to change or be killed.
 
Forostar said:
I dare to say that without any operation, there'd still be attacks.
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So essentially, by this logic, it doesn't matter whether there will be military operations or not. So we should still attack them, because it's fun when things go boom?
 
Yes, I got that alright. Who else would those attacks be from?
 
The Flash said:
What you don't realize is Islamic extremists in the Middle East are filled with even more rage against Western countries when they meddle in. Iraqi government doesn't want extremists thriving. Syrian government doesn't want extremists thriving. Qatar doesn't. Saudi Arabia doesn't. United Arab Emirates doesn't. Jordan doesn't. Leave it to these countries to get rid of the extremists..
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The US and other western countries are there because the Iraqi government asked for help. So far we're there aiding the Iraqi forces and the Kurdish peshmergas as well as doing humanitarian help.

I live in a western country so perhaps it's because I only hear about the US and Western effort against ISIS in the news...but without the help from the US and the European countries...how would the fight against ISIS look now if it was left to just the countries you mention? And how would the civilian situation look?
 
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SixesAlltheway said:
The US and other western countries are there because the Iraqi government asked for help. So far we're there aiding the Iraqi forces and the Kurdish peshmergas as well as doing humanitarian help.

I live in a western country so perhaps it's because I only hear about the US and Western effort against ISIS in the news...but without the help from the US and the European countries...how would the fight against ISIS look now if it was left to just the countries you mention?
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We were talking actual military interventions, not the aiding and humanitarian help going on right now. Staying away would likely mean less people joining ISIS*, making Iraqi Sunnis feel wanted which in turn likely means more resistance against ISIS, and it significantly lowers the risk of harsh consequences.

*It might be hard to believe but there are a lot of people who join ISIS not because they completely share their extremists beliefs, but to "show the West their strength". And it's a major problem. The same attitude is what causes the terrorist attacks in the West.
 
You said that if the West doesn't execute military operations against IS and other terror groups, terrorist attacks in the West will still happen, right?
 
The Flash said:
We were talking actual military interventions, not the aiding and humanitarian help going on right now. Staying away would likely mean less people joining ISIS*, making Iraqi Sunnis feel wanted likely means more resistance against ISIS, and it significantly lowers the risk of harsh consequences.

*It might be hard to believe but there are a lot of people who join ISIS not because they completely share their extremists beliefs, but to "show West their strength". And it's a major problem.
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Well maybe..But I think you will also always have like-minded Muslims in the west, IE people who agree with the establishment of a caliphate. The reverse is also true I think...the stronger ISIS would get in Syria and elsewhere the MORE people would go there to join and fight the cause because they see it is a real possibility....
 
Would you say that the threat of terror got less after NATO occupation of Afghanistan and US/Coalition invasion of Iraq?
 
SixesAlltheway said:
Well maybe..But I think you will also always have like-minded Muslims in the west, IE people who agree with the establishment of a caliphate. The reverse is also true I think...the stronger ISIS would get in Syria and elsewhere the MORE people would go there to join and fight the cause because they see it is a real possibility....
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The thing is, when you take away the "West Opposers", the actual supporters of extremism are much easier to deal with for the Middle Eastern governments. They had been doing it for years. Because United States and its allies (namely France, Turkey, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Libya in this case) so desperately wanted to overthrow Bashar Assad, they didn't hesitate to arm the opposing groups. That includes Islamic Front, Al Nusra, Free Syrian Army and...ISIS. If you continue intervening and arming groups that are threats themselves, one day the threat might not be ISIS, but a different group. Al Nusra, for example, isn't that far from ISIS when it comes to ideologies.
 
Then what is the point in a western military strike against IS and other terrorist groups?
 
A difficult question. At least we should keep an eye on them and wonder where and how they are trained and taught. Also, I hope the threatened minorities in the area won't be forgotten by the West. Someone needs to do something (it's the old argument again). What that something is, I find that a difficult topic.

But simply leaving it be, that's not something I am content with.
 
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