ISIS Thread

Erdogan is a complete nutcase. He said this:

"For us, the PKK and Isil are the same," said President Erdogan this week, using another term for Islamic State.
"It is wrong to consider them as different from each other."

I fear the worst for Turkey if a majority thinks the same like that. Of course Kurdish people are getting restless. Their people are getting slaughtered and they can't help them. Big risk. Big risk indeed.
 
Your complete ignorance in regards to PKK clouds your views on this subject. I think you should do some research about PKK and then talk about the matter.

In this way it comes off like this. You think we should support a terrorist organization (PKK) that has been attacking Turkish civilians, have been placing mines in walking roads and killing thousands of Turkish young men for decades, aid them with weaponry against ISIS to fight ISIS so that they can use those weapons against us in order to seperate the country and create a Kurdish state. PKK was created in order to create a seperate Kurdish state and it's a terrorist organization. There's no getting around that.

ISIS being evil doesn't make PKK not evil. They'll use the support we give them to beat us. I thought Perun's posts made you realize some things but apparently not. It's okay, continue to be close-minded, ask for Turkey to do anything possible to get rid of ISIS and see its entrance to a civil war.

Next thing you'll say people should support Al Qaeda because they're enemies with ISIS. Fucking hell.
 
Turkey should understand people who wish to help people in Kobani.

I understand Perun's post but I disagree with what is going on (or better: with what's not going on).

This story has more sides than one. I wonder if somebody (a non-Kurd?) in Turkey will open their eyes and see it from another perspective.

This is getting close to Warsaw 1944. Let's look and see how others finish them off, so that we won't have to do it. Die, Kurdish scum, die. No one cares for your rotten lives anyway.
 
You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. There's no arguing with someone who's completely blunt about a matter he isn't informed enough. You're absolutely CLUELESS.
 
That's fine with me. Say hi to your Kurdish neighbour for me. Try to explain him what you just told me.
 
You are completely ignorant towards Kobani. You mix up Kurds with PKK. You have no clue what you're talking about. You are CLUELESS.
 
A digression on this ISIS/Turkey/Kurds thing: Some weeks back, there was a rally in Oslo where young Muslims demonstrated against ISIS and protested against their supporters in Norway.

A few days later, news told about another anti-ISIS demo - a group of Kurds holding a demonstration in front of the Parliament building. I expected this to be more or less a call for help, but was surprised to hear that the demo focused on blaming Turkey for what ISIS was doing to the Kurds in Syria. Struck me as odd.
 
Kurds in Turkey, Kurds in Iraq and Kurds in Syria all want to have a seperate Kurdish state. They only have conflicts in regards to who's going to be in charge. They want Turkey to be out of the picture. They'll use any chance they're given. ISIS attacks them in Kobane, suddenly we're responsible for everything that is going on there. People start to vandalise everything. They start burning Turkish flags, they start to throw molotov bombs at schools, trash the streets. Suddenly we're an even bigger enemy than ISIS is. Then comes a lad, who accuses us of being careless because we want to keep a hold of our borders and don't want to aid them with weaponry, knowing who they're going to use it against next. I'm sorry but this is ridiculous.

I'm also so sorry that I've lost my cool and started throwing swear words all over the place. But is there anyone else here that is going to get more touchy and offended by all this besides me? Am I expected to say "Yeah torch those ISIS bastards and give those people their weapons" when the Kurdish militants organizations say "People in Istanbul and Ankara won't sleep tight. We'll bring them hell". I live in Ankara.

Just a couple of minutes ago couple of officers were killed in the provincial security directoriate in Bingöl. One of whom was the father of a friend of mine. How can I be expected not to want caution from our shitty government that I've been slamming for the past couple of years here? ISIS is not the first threat in Middle East and it won't be the last. You have to think of the consequences when you take steps. Do you know where ISIS' military strength comes from? They received a ton of weapon aid by several countries during their fight against Bashar Assad. Turkey was among them. I bashed the government for this decision over the summer saying it would have consequences. ISIS now uses some of those weapons against Kurdish people. If we do the same mistake once again, it'll hit us this time. I know how pleasing it sounds: Turkish government makes up for its mistake by protecting Kurdish people in Kobane through a military attack. But it just doesn't work like that in this chaos. I want the well-being of everyone, Turks, Kurds doesn't matter. If the step you take in a hurry likely has the consequence of hurting even more people, you don't take that step. Simple as that.
 
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Most people here accept that you are the expert on the ground, I think, in terms of the Turkish government.
 
I don't want to edit the last post anymore and now that I'm a bit calmer, I'm going to explain my stance on this matter a bit more clearly and in detail.
  • As I said before, everything has its consequences in a sensitive manner like this one. In attempts to overthrow Bashar Assad, a couple of countries aided the opposing groups with weaponry. Turkey was among them. After I found out about it I slammed our government for not taking the consequences into account. You simply don't aid a violent group just because their views fit your interests 'at that time'. Its foolishness has been proven time and again.
  • Once ISIS started spreading their disgraceful acts and started getting stronger, a coalition of forces was found. Turkey initially resisted joining because of several reasons:
  1. Economic Problems: Turkish economy is seeing its first period of stagnation in a decade. Erdoğan's economic policies were initially successful and the country made a sharp recovery from the economic crisis of 2001. However, since the policy wasn't sustainable a stagnation was not hard to predict. Erdoğan embraced a liberalization system and started privatizing a lot of government-funded companies. The hot money flow relaxed the suppressed economy, created business opportunities and made Turkey an intriguing market. As years went by, the expected industrial advance was not made and the amount of valuable companies started to fall down. Currently, the government is looking to privatize some companies no one thought would be years ago, in an effort to keep the flow moving. But the stagnation is taking its toll. Inflation rose to the levels close to what we've seen in the 90s, the decade where the origins of the 2001 crisis lie. An economic crisis seems to be on its way. As a result, Turkish government initially resisted joining a coalition where they were likely to be given a lot of responsibilities due to their location. Which brings up the second reason.
  2. Borders: Syria-Turkey border is long and hard to defend because of its terrain. To be able to stop any penetration of terrorists, a lot of spending has to be made. Protecting places located near the border straight away isn't as easy as it sounds. The border has never really been safe either, be it in a time of conflict or not.
  • Since the danger of ISIS to humanity was too much not to take part in defending against it as a closely located country, mainly because of the pressure by the United States government, the Turkish government had to participate in the coalition. Which was the wise thing to do. Even with all the economic problems, we had to take part in the defense against these atrocities. But to what extent was (and still is) a matter of confusion. Among the members of public and members of government alike.
  • The United States pushes Turkey to advance in their approach to the events and take a leading role. Turkey resists against it, mainly due to the first reason of the initial one. Turkey was expected to protect the locations close to the border but since the border is too long not to do a mass spending and armament, the process was not fast enough to stop ISIS from advancing to a spot that is as close to the border as Kobane (or Ayn al-Arab). The influence of United States' push, the Kurdish people's expectations from Turkey due to their location play a large part in the events of unrest that are going on right now. I'll get to them later.
  • One has to remember that the events of Kobane is not exclusively a "Turkey don't help the Kurds" thing as some might think. And that is because there's a significant Turkmen community living in Kobane. So in this case, Turks don't care about Turks, either. That is obviously, ridiculous.
  • It might sound like I'm defending the "standing still" position of Turkish government. That is not true. Turkish government doesn't have a clue what they're supposed to do. They're confused by the economic problems that they know they're going to face and going to change the view people see them (Founded at the time of the economic crisis, AKP gained confidence of people through their economic ideas and got stronger because they did manage to get things back on track). They also want to do something. They also know they screwed up big time months ago. They also know United States' policies against Bashar Assad has recently shifted into a more "conversational" approach and Erdoğan did not expect it. They're as clueless about these matters as they've ever been.
  • Since Turkey is drowning in chaos and confusion due to their economic and strategic shortcomings, it's actually up to the United States to turn things around in Kobane. After Erdoğan claimed that the city would fall if air strikes weren't done instantly, the US upped their air strikes which initially shifted the situation in favor of the population of Kobane. If there's anyone that has the sources to go all out in Kobane, it's the United States. Turkey doesn't have the power to get rid of ISIS all by itself, it would have to arm the people who fight against ISIS which brings us to the matter of the debate I had here about two hours ago.
  • Kurdish people expect Turkish government to take the leading approach and get rid of ISIS. Since the government has struggled to come up with a plan, they instantly placed their anger against the Turkish people. These violent crimes against Turkish people started in a matter of hours. They simply flipped the switch and started vandalising, even though PKK themselves gave the Turkish government time (until October 15th) to come up with a strategy. This speaks volumes about their feelings towards the Turkish population. Unrest is something to be expected. But throwing molotov bombs at schools, crossfiring civilians, attacking government buildings and killing people and starting these acts in the matter of hours is questionable. Pro-PKK politicians, Kurdish militant groups have been threatening the Turkish population all throughout the last couple of days. One of the leaders of the Pro-PKK party HDP claimed that "Ankara will be broken apart". Another one said that "they would bring the hell to Turkish metropols". The instant violent reaction is a sign that Turkish-Kurdish relations aren't as sweet and progressing as they were portrayed by the Turkish government. One big act of disappointment happens and country moves to civil war.
  • A seperate Kurdish state is an ideal for many (probably majority) Kurdish people. It's just a matter of control, who is going to take matters into their own hand? PKK, Iraqi Kurdistan or Syrian Kurdistan. One thing you can be sure of, though, is that they'd want to get rid of Turkish control as soon as possible and would take any chance to do so. They'd rather take the control from Turkey, then decide what they're going to to do with each other. As a result, Turkey has to be in caution. As I said before, Turkey currently does not have the conditions to go out on an all-out military attack or a complete defense of the Syrian border. They need the support of PKK, YPG, PYD and anyone else who fights against ISIS and they would have to arm these organizations. Granted, the Turkish strike combined with a completely armed PKK, YPG, PYD and American air strikes would be too much to overcome for the jihadists. However, the consequences would have the potential to be troublesome for Turkey. A civil war breaking out between Turkish and Kurdish people in midst of a possible economic depression would be the stuff of nightmares. Turkey can't afford to make the mistake they made with Bashar Assad-opposers again: Arm a violent group who feeds off chaos.
If you have gotten this far reading, thank you.
 
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I realize that there are many arguments that say that Turkey should not do anything for the Kurds in Kobani. There are risks.

But there are also arguments to help them. The Kurds are no aliens.

If the Turks would do something, then they'll have a major pro on their side, namely they can explain to their citizens, and the rest of the world, and of course all the Kurds in and outside Turkey, that they tried. "Look, we are not sure if this is the best thing to do, we see a lot of risks, with helping, but at least we are trying to help". The Turks will be praised, they'll get more recognition for their problems and fears, and it could be a start of a better relation with the Kurds. IS are a common enemy, or are they not?

If the Turks will not help, then I am afraid that this will lead to risks as well. If Kobani will fall, that will go down into history big time. Turkey will have big problems with explaining how a large group of people is cleansed from the earth within arm reach. A group that has immense bonds with millions of people in their own country. Turkey will become the shame of the region. And protests will increase. It would be incredibly naive to think that the Kurds will just stay in their homes, wipe a tear and go on with their lifes. Not doing anything means that we've got another thing coming. I sympathize with any desperate demonstrator who wants to give the people in Kobani a voice.

If that means sympathizing against Turkey, then so be it. With pride I'll do that. It is completely in line with my conscience and with how I think of how people should help each other and of how governments should take their responsibilities.

Once again, big respect to America and their allies. Even if there's no good plan for what happens after, now is the time to do something.
 
Forostar said:
I realize that there are many arguments that say that Turkey should not do anything for the Kurds in Kobani.
Click to expand...

The fact that you got this notion out of all I've written alone proves that you either don't read what I write or just don't care to understand it. Turkey is expected to lead the case, both by the US and the Kurds. I'm saying that Turkey doesn't have the strength to lead it. (With a ton of explanations why) If US steps up as leaders with additional air strikes, Turkey joins them and both US and Turkey stay away from arming PKK, YPG and PYD, something can be done. Currently Turkish government insists on going after Assad as well as ISIS and not leading the military operations, while US government insists on Turkey leading the military attacks and not going after Assad.

You should get rid of the mindset that Turkey are staying away from this because they don't want to do anything about Kobane. Read my arguments one more time. There's a significant Turkmen population living in Kobane as well. Stop the "Kurds are no aliens" or the one you used before "Die, Kurdish scum, die, noone cares about your lives" agitation. Noone thinks like that. There's a reason Turkey accepts thousands of Kurds who flee Kobane.

But as this conversation proves time and time again, that it is harder to crack prejudice than atom. There's no further thing I can say here other than that long post I prepared on Thursday and no further thing I can do than hope you see beyond ISIS. It's that "something should be done immediately, without taking risks into account" approach you currently insist on that creates bigger threats, bigger failures, bigger wars. One of those "bigger threats" being, as I pointed out, ISIS themselves.
 
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Guys, I understand this issue is of great emotional impact for you, but please keep it civil and refrain from personal attacks.
 
PKK killed three Turkish soldiers who were unarmed and on a leave of absence by attacking them from behind on a street today. Turkey opens its borders to the Pesmergha today for them to advance to Kobane and help them, which was thought to lower tensions but of course it won't. PKK feeds off chaos and will continue to do so. But as you know PKK isn't the threat ISIS is to Turkey and everything will be fine if Turkey helps Kobane so who cares about their goals and their strength.
 
Didn't mean that there, I meant that with help coming for Kobane PKK might have been expected to stop their attacks for a while. But they will fight against ISIS together, obviously.
 
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