Well, I thought they were the worst available.
IRON MAIDEN SURVIVOR #7: Results -> Hallowed Be Thy Name wins for the 6th time!
- Thread starter Night Prowler
- Start date
MrKnickerbocker
clap hands
I would love to hear the original compositions of everyone with very strong opinions about Empire.
____no5
Free Man
Et tu Loosus Cannus?
EDIT: I thought strong positive opinions.
Therefore this is not applicable for me, I adore the song @MrKnickerbocker
Last edited:
I'm guessing we've all felt that way at various points during these votes.
InfiniteDreamer544
Educated Fool
I can’t believe you all are voting out Judas be my Guide
Voted for Judas, Rainmaker, Lord and Stratego.
Eliminated after Round 30:
Stratego - 13 votes
Judas Be My Guide - 12 votes
When The Wild Wind Blows - 10 votes
Mid 15 songs rejoin the game!
Easy votes for Killers, Futureal, If Eternity Should Fail and The Writing On The Wall.
Spambot
Meme Lord
Yeah, I could send it to you. And even before I send it, I'll admit that my composition is way worse than "Empire of the Clouds".
Then again, I didn't have a proper studio.
Or a proper producer.
At the time I composed it, I was probably 30 years old, and at the time Bruce composed his, his career spanned over 30 years.
I also didn't have the gear and/or technicians.
I might be nitpicking now, but I need to say that I also didn't have Adrian Smith in the next room.
Run Empire, run. Let's see how far you can get.
Oh, and if "The Parchment" doesn't end up in Top 20 - I riot.
KidInTheDark666
What's yours is mine and what's mine is mine too
Wrathchild
The Prisoner
The Number of the Beast
The Writing on the Wall
The Prisoner
The Number of the Beast
The Writing on the Wall
____no5
Free Man
Kalata
Out of the Silent Planet
Strong songs were eliminated. We better get used to it. JBMG is one of the band's best short songs. Stratego is a modern classic! I wish it had stayed in the game a lot longer. Tbh, I think LIALW executed the similar structure/feel better than WTWWB.
I voted for:
The Number Of The Beast
Where Eagles Dare
Lord Of Light
Beast (wow) because I happen to like it a bit less than the band's other eternal classics. Overplaying it live can't be a factor, dunno. One of the band's emblematic songs, without a doubt.
MrKnickerbocker
clap hands
The fact that Bruce, who is not known for being an instrumentalist, composed the entire song is mindblowing. The fact that the music perfectly follows the story is incredibly impressive.
I’m convinced that the only people who hate on Empire either have short song bias or think it’s “not metal” enough. It’s a crowning achievement in Bruce’s songwriting.
I don’t see how anyone can be a Bruce or a Maiden fan and not hear it. Everyone has their preferences, sure, but hating on Empire literally makes no sense to me.
MindRuler
Ancient Mariner
I don´t really hate Empire but grew to dislike the song, but don´t ask me why. It could be the piano intro I got tired of or the Black Sabbath ripoff part. I´m definitely not a short song lover pur sang because there are alot of epics in my Top 10 (Sign Of The Cross, Rime, Alexander, Parchment)
And the fact it´s not metal enough doesn´t apply to me either because lately I´m more into AOR and fusion. So maybe it´s more the total feeling of the song that doesn´t click with me anymore like in the beginning.
____no5
Free Man
Spambot
Meme Lord
I think some of the things would be more appropriate in the thread of the aforementioned song, but it's a survivor, and I have to present my case, so why not. Also, I can joke that I hate this song, but if we're getting more serious I'd say "hate" may be a strong word, considering it's a felling towards the song. Phrases I used in the past were "pretentious", "pompous" and there might be a silent but determent "Fu**. You." after I heard it for second or third time.
Just a little background. I don't have a short song bias (same as Mindruler, I'd rate Rime and The Parchment in my top 10) Also I'm not going to say "it's not metal enough". For example, my favorite Bruce solo album is "Skunkworks". Even when "Skunkworks" is my favorite album, to affirm my status as a Bruce fanboy, I'll say I'd take "Chemical Wedding" and "Accident of Birth" over "X Factor" and "Virtual XI" and if you ask me to chose between "Iron Maiden - Killers" and "No Prayer - Fear of the Dark" I'd probably make a dick move and chose first two albums, because I know most of those songs were sung by Bruce at some point. Furthermore, last month I went to that concerto thing just because Bruce was singing. If you took that gig in my backyard and replace the singer I'd probably remain at my balcony with a beer.
Now, about the song. Nothing here is a fact, only my opinion/view of why I don't like the song - saying the song is "good" or "bad" is a moot point at most cases.
First minute there is a theme on piano, which can be viewed as an intro. Only, there is a different theme on the second minute. Now, even that wouldn't bug me if those two parts weren't repeated note-by-note, only this time with a vocal. If those two minutes qualify as intro, I think nobody should bug Steve anymore for editing. And if you look at them as an intro, that makes the first sung verse quite bare and uninteresting without any hook or surprise to make it more colorful. Since the song is 18 minutes long and it starts with two minutes on piano, maybe it can be counted as overture, but even then, there is nothing in those two first minutes that would announce what is happening in the rest of the song.
So there are 2 minutes on piano theme + 2 minutes of that same piano with Bruce singing + 3 minutes of that same piano with Bruce singing and the rest of the band joins him. That's third of the song doing same old, same old. That kind of composing reminds me of a kid who takes only red Lego bricks and puts them in a straight line and then stacks couple of same rows above it. "Look, I've built a wall" Yeah, great, it's a nice wall, but with all the shapes and colors, it leaves me pretty unenthusiastic. Even if the piano theme was out of this world, it just too repetitive and with little to no twist to it for 7 damn minutes. Look at the songs that closed Senjutsu or Final Frontier, hell, even look at the longer song on the same album composed by Steve. You can say about Steve's editing whatever you want, but at least those songs have a "unpredictable" structure (unpredictable compered to Empire). Those songs either have a hints in their intro, or theme that is twisted later in the song, or some kind a different structure. For example "Hell on Earth" is like a fucking adventure. First time listening, the chorus always got my by surprise. Compared to Steve's full-on adventure Bruce's Empire feels like a tutorial. First you got to learn the moves for two minutes, they you need to repeat those same movies - this time with an NPC, and then you have a mission with NPC, but to pass it you need to repeat those exact moves. Not fun.
After 7 minutes there is SOS. Now, I know a lot of people love it, but I find it extremely amateurish. Like "Hey people, did you heard about my high school band? - Oh, yeah, you're the guys who put that SOS Morse code in a song. Cool stuff". That could pass for someone putting his debut out, but for a band with 35 years of experience and 14 studio albums in their belt I find it pretty uninspiring. And the fact that each SOS is getting slower and slower makes me imagine poor guys dying on their instruments.
Now, I like the part that starts 7:18, I'd even say I love it. First time I heard it, I fist-pumped the air thinking "Finally, the song takes of!!!" You know, like the R101. Nope. Here's another SOS to inflate it all. Speaking of inflating, it quite obvious things have gone awry for R101 at this point, at least that's what it looks like @8:38. Cool Nicko fills make me think the trouble is already here and the song is picking up. No, let's stop (once more) and here's a Legacy riff. Here, that riff alone looks like a piece baked dry chicken with no sauce and no side dish. That's now over half of the song, and even if I didn't lose my interest until now, this definitely ruined it for me. The only thing that is keeping me is the orchestral part that add some sort of flavor. Orchestra, which was pretty noticeable for first couple of minutes, only to be totally forgotten and now take the lead. Guitar solo's are nothing to write home about, but again, I really don't notice them unless they're really awful or really great.
@10:34 song changes the tempo, gets a bit heavier, a bit faster, lead guitar is interesting to follow. Let's see what happens after R101 crashes. Oh wait, let's return to Legacy riff once more. Here, even if Bruce constructed first part of the song, nothing here speaks "Bruce" or has the connection with first part of the song. There is no way Bruce came up with all of it, which kind a makes a saying that he "constructed it all" futile. At the same time he managed to make a song that is completely his but on the other hand is a team effort. I know it sounds contradictory, and that's how it feels to me. So, I'll say that, so far, "Empire" doesn't sound like a Bruce solo or a collective Maiden effort. This part ends with another solo over a generic riff progression that could be copy-pasted in majority of Books of Souls album and I wouldn't notice.
Bruce returns at @12:30, dare I say Bruce bursts @12:30. I love the guys voice, but here he sounds like a kid at a school play and after seeing his parents, he's trying to out-voice (out-sing?) everybody because "louder is better". So Bruce tells how R101 is lolling somewhere over France and... Wait a minute. I thought the ship is already broken?! I mean, that was what those SOS Morse code was for, right? And the part that illustrates it floating and the riding into storm. But Bruce is saying it just happened now. So this is the climax, right? I mean, it sounds like it should be climax, but it doesn't sound like climax. What was SOS before then? I won't say songs should have a climax, but if you're keeping me here for 18 minutes there better be some structure or story. Thirteen minutes in and I have no idea what each part should represent or tell.
Now, this three-note thing that happens @12:54 may sound good when Bruce was playing the piece on piano. But when you translate this three-note melody to a full band with three guitars, bass and drums... To me, it sounds awkward to say at least. Like on of those Sony-Ericsson ringtones from the beginning of the millennia, the ones that nobody ever used. OK, so the song stopped again, and let's see what happened when R101 crashed, but NO! @13:40 Bruce is singing that Reapers' scythe cut into the ship. Now. @13:40. Which makes me thing what the fu** was happening between 7:00 and 13:40. Those three-note melody is back again and if this wasn't based on real events, you bet my ass I'd mock this entire thing much more than I already did. Listen, you know that tune that is often used as a circus music? This one. Well, it was composed in 1897 as a military march by Julius Fulic and it's called "Entry of the Gladiators". I repeat - that tune, military march, "Entry of the Gladiator". Also example where composer had one idea/theory and in practice it turned out to be something else.
You could also bet my ass that Bruce took the melody @14:25 from some free online database just by typing "suspense" or "horror" and clicked download on first tune available. OK, I overreact but, again, for a band with three decade of experience making albums this stinks quite amateurish. Even worse, I don't see how it fits to the previous part (three-tone) or how it fits to the next part (repeated intro/overture/7 minutes of piano) because it doesn't feel like natural extension of either, nor does enhance either of those parts. I guess it should portray the horror that happened that it crash, but... As I said, it's based on real-life so I'm going to refrain myself.
Repeated intro at the end of the song kind of fits the Maiden style and here is the piano bit again, but Bruce also decided to add a "finale". Too bad he forgot to add every other bit of operatic composition also. To people who love this song I see that it resembles as an emotional closure, to me - I'm just glad it's finished. OK, I can de-construct any Maiden song like this and try to make it look awful, even better, somebody can take and de-construct my review and beat me on every single point. So, I'm going to add what really bugs me about this.
Bruce is the man, man! If they went from Paul di'Anno to Blaze or had some other singer, I doubt I'd be fanatic as I am/was. His voice on Brave New World was a huuuuuge crossroad in my music life some 20+ years ago. I really love most of things he does. There are times when he tries to take a hit and misses, and even he realizes it and takes it with style. But when he hits the ball, it goes out of the park. That talent, at the right moment, with right phrase, can inspire thousands. I'm saying this because once me and my friend were watching some making of (I don't remember was it Dance of Death or AMOLAD) and we both agreed on same thing: "Damn! Bruce should have more creative freedom! Look at that talent, look at that style! Damn you Steve, for constraining Bruce so much. Give that guy a bit space and time and watch him fly!" And, it happened. Now, I hoped/waited for a song like this for a long, long time and when it finally happened - it sank worse than a ... submarine.
When Book of Souls came out, I don't know was it hype or what, but it was like everything Maiden did led to this moment, the moment where "Empire" will close the album, and even worse, people were ecstatic. One guy, who acts like he has stick in his ass, said he danced when he first heard "Empire" (true, it was a new album bias and with time, his and everybody's else opinion on the song lowered). Still, even than I wondered what it everybody else hearing that I don't.
I mean, music fits the story. OK, at least first part and that isn't so hard to achieve when there's a recurring theme for 7 minutes. But does that make it interesting? Somebody can take a train conductor reading announcements for 7 minutes and compose something to go beneath it. "Crowning achievement"? Well yes and no. As I said, in later part you can hear other members but, to me, it sounds like they kept putting things on in and kept first one that sticks, without any coherent though how to approach it. Even if it was 18 minutes solely Bruce, there is a problem for me. It's like he tried to be MVP of the game, you know, best scorer, most assist, most blocks, stolen balls and so on. And those things do happen. But this was fifth game of an NBA finals. Closing song on what could've been (at the time) their last album. He did achieve his triple-double, but his team lost the game. If it was team effort from the first second, it would sound completely different, for better or worse. But at least it would be "we did it our best" instead of "we played it all to Bruce."
Bruce is not an instrumentalist but composed entire song. Yeah, that is admirable. But that doesn't automatically make it great. Listen, tomorrow I can apply for marathon and run the whole thing for 11 hours. I may get a small article in "Believe it or not" category in newspaper, but I doubt that in near future some P.E. teacher would be: "Listen kids! One time, old Spambot smoked half a pack of cigarettes, drank couple of beers and next morning - he ran the entire marathon!" That may speak about my determination, but it doesn't say a thing about hard-work, talent, strategy, or whatever. If it was a Bruce solo effort, for his solo album, I might view it different. But for fuck sake, you had 5 other guys in the room next to you, 5 other guys whose ingredients made Maiden what they are.
In lack of words for my disappointment with this song, I'll quote one MaidenFans member (I think it was Mosh) who summed it up pretty nicely:
"Empire just is and then it isn't."
There.
Just a little background. I don't have a short song bias (same as Mindruler, I'd rate Rime and The Parchment in my top 10) Also I'm not going to say "it's not metal enough". For example, my favorite Bruce solo album is "Skunkworks". Even when "Skunkworks" is my favorite album, to affirm my status as a Bruce fanboy, I'll say I'd take "Chemical Wedding" and "Accident of Birth" over "X Factor" and "Virtual XI" and if you ask me to chose between "Iron Maiden - Killers" and "No Prayer - Fear of the Dark" I'd probably make a dick move and chose first two albums, because I know most of those songs were sung by Bruce at some point. Furthermore, last month I went to that concerto thing just because Bruce was singing. If you took that gig in my backyard and replace the singer I'd probably remain at my balcony with a beer.
Now, about the song. Nothing here is a fact, only my opinion/view of why I don't like the song - saying the song is "good" or "bad" is a moot point at most cases.
First minute there is a theme on piano, which can be viewed as an intro. Only, there is a different theme on the second minute. Now, even that wouldn't bug me if those two parts weren't repeated note-by-note, only this time with a vocal. If those two minutes qualify as intro, I think nobody should bug Steve anymore for editing. And if you look at them as an intro, that makes the first sung verse quite bare and uninteresting without any hook or surprise to make it more colorful. Since the song is 18 minutes long and it starts with two minutes on piano, maybe it can be counted as overture, but even then, there is nothing in those two first minutes that would announce what is happening in the rest of the song.
So there are 2 minutes on piano theme + 2 minutes of that same piano with Bruce singing + 3 minutes of that same piano with Bruce singing and the rest of the band joins him. That's third of the song doing same old, same old. That kind of composing reminds me of a kid who takes only red Lego bricks and puts them in a straight line and then stacks couple of same rows above it. "Look, I've built a wall" Yeah, great, it's a nice wall, but with all the shapes and colors, it leaves me pretty unenthusiastic. Even if the piano theme was out of this world, it just too repetitive and with little to no twist to it for 7 damn minutes. Look at the songs that closed Senjutsu or Final Frontier, hell, even look at the longer song on the same album composed by Steve. You can say about Steve's editing whatever you want, but at least those songs have a "unpredictable" structure (unpredictable compered to Empire). Those songs either have a hints in their intro, or theme that is twisted later in the song, or some kind a different structure. For example "Hell on Earth" is like a fucking adventure. First time listening, the chorus always got my by surprise. Compared to Steve's full-on adventure Bruce's Empire feels like a tutorial. First you got to learn the moves for two minutes, they you need to repeat those same movies - this time with an NPC, and then you have a mission with NPC, but to pass it you need to repeat those exact moves. Not fun.
After 7 minutes there is SOS. Now, I know a lot of people love it, but I find it extremely amateurish. Like "Hey people, did you heard about my high school band? - Oh, yeah, you're the guys who put that SOS Morse code in a song. Cool stuff". That could pass for someone putting his debut out, but for a band with 35 years of experience and 14 studio albums in their belt I find it pretty uninspiring. And the fact that each SOS is getting slower and slower makes me imagine poor guys dying on their instruments.
Now, I like the part that starts 7:18, I'd even say I love it. First time I heard it, I fist-pumped the air thinking "Finally, the song takes of!!!" You know, like the R101. Nope. Here's another SOS to inflate it all. Speaking of inflating, it quite obvious things have gone awry for R101 at this point, at least that's what it looks like @8:38. Cool Nicko fills make me think the trouble is already here and the song is picking up. No, let's stop (once more) and here's a Legacy riff. Here, that riff alone looks like a piece baked dry chicken with no sauce and no side dish. That's now over half of the song, and even if I didn't lose my interest until now, this definitely ruined it for me. The only thing that is keeping me is the orchestral part that add some sort of flavor. Orchestra, which was pretty noticeable for first couple of minutes, only to be totally forgotten and now take the lead. Guitar solo's are nothing to write home about, but again, I really don't notice them unless they're really awful or really great.
@10:34 song changes the tempo, gets a bit heavier, a bit faster, lead guitar is interesting to follow. Let's see what happens after R101 crashes. Oh wait, let's return to Legacy riff once more. Here, even if Bruce constructed first part of the song, nothing here speaks "Bruce" or has the connection with first part of the song. There is no way Bruce came up with all of it, which kind a makes a saying that he "constructed it all" futile. At the same time he managed to make a song that is completely his but on the other hand is a team effort. I know it sounds contradictory, and that's how it feels to me. So, I'll say that, so far, "Empire" doesn't sound like a Bruce solo or a collective Maiden effort. This part ends with another solo over a generic riff progression that could be copy-pasted in majority of Books of Souls album and I wouldn't notice.
Bruce returns at @12:30, dare I say Bruce bursts @12:30. I love the guys voice, but here he sounds like a kid at a school play and after seeing his parents, he's trying to out-voice (out-sing?) everybody because "louder is better". So Bruce tells how R101 is lolling somewhere over France and... Wait a minute. I thought the ship is already broken?! I mean, that was what those SOS Morse code was for, right? And the part that illustrates it floating and the riding into storm. But Bruce is saying it just happened now. So this is the climax, right? I mean, it sounds like it should be climax, but it doesn't sound like climax. What was SOS before then? I won't say songs should have a climax, but if you're keeping me here for 18 minutes there better be some structure or story. Thirteen minutes in and I have no idea what each part should represent or tell.
Now, this three-note thing that happens @12:54 may sound good when Bruce was playing the piece on piano. But when you translate this three-note melody to a full band with three guitars, bass and drums... To me, it sounds awkward to say at least. Like on of those Sony-Ericsson ringtones from the beginning of the millennia, the ones that nobody ever used. OK, so the song stopped again, and let's see what happened when R101 crashed, but NO! @13:40 Bruce is singing that Reapers' scythe cut into the ship. Now. @13:40. Which makes me thing what the fu** was happening between 7:00 and 13:40. Those three-note melody is back again and if this wasn't based on real events, you bet my ass I'd mock this entire thing much more than I already did. Listen, you know that tune that is often used as a circus music? This one. Well, it was composed in 1897 as a military march by Julius Fulic and it's called "Entry of the Gladiators". I repeat - that tune, military march, "Entry of the Gladiator". Also example where composer had one idea/theory and in practice it turned out to be something else.
You could also bet my ass that Bruce took the melody @14:25 from some free online database just by typing "suspense" or "horror" and clicked download on first tune available. OK, I overreact but, again, for a band with three decade of experience making albums this stinks quite amateurish. Even worse, I don't see how it fits to the previous part (three-tone) or how it fits to the next part (repeated intro/overture/7 minutes of piano) because it doesn't feel like natural extension of either, nor does enhance either of those parts. I guess it should portray the horror that happened that it crash, but... As I said, it's based on real-life so I'm going to refrain myself.
Repeated intro at the end of the song kind of fits the Maiden style and here is the piano bit again, but Bruce also decided to add a "finale". Too bad he forgot to add every other bit of operatic composition also. To people who love this song I see that it resembles as an emotional closure, to me - I'm just glad it's finished. OK, I can de-construct any Maiden song like this and try to make it look awful, even better, somebody can take and de-construct my review and beat me on every single point. So, I'm going to add what really bugs me about this.
Bruce is the man, man! If they went from Paul di'Anno to Blaze or had some other singer, I doubt I'd be fanatic as I am/was. His voice on Brave New World was a huuuuuge crossroad in my music life some 20+ years ago. I really love most of things he does. There are times when he tries to take a hit and misses, and even he realizes it and takes it with style. But when he hits the ball, it goes out of the park. That talent, at the right moment, with right phrase, can inspire thousands. I'm saying this because once me and my friend were watching some making of (I don't remember was it Dance of Death or AMOLAD) and we both agreed on same thing: "Damn! Bruce should have more creative freedom! Look at that talent, look at that style! Damn you Steve, for constraining Bruce so much. Give that guy a bit space and time and watch him fly!" And, it happened. Now, I hoped/waited for a song like this for a long, long time and when it finally happened - it sank worse than a ... submarine.
When Book of Souls came out, I don't know was it hype or what, but it was like everything Maiden did led to this moment, the moment where "Empire" will close the album, and even worse, people were ecstatic. One guy, who acts like he has stick in his ass, said he danced when he first heard "Empire" (true, it was a new album bias and with time, his and everybody's else opinion on the song lowered). Still, even than I wondered what it everybody else hearing that I don't.
I mean, music fits the story. OK, at least first part and that isn't so hard to achieve when there's a recurring theme for 7 minutes. But does that make it interesting? Somebody can take a train conductor reading announcements for 7 minutes and compose something to go beneath it. "Crowning achievement"? Well yes and no. As I said, in later part you can hear other members but, to me, it sounds like they kept putting things on in and kept first one that sticks, without any coherent though how to approach it. Even if it was 18 minutes solely Bruce, there is a problem for me. It's like he tried to be MVP of the game, you know, best scorer, most assist, most blocks, stolen balls and so on. And those things do happen. But this was fifth game of an NBA finals. Closing song on what could've been (at the time) their last album. He did achieve his triple-double, but his team lost the game. If it was team effort from the first second, it would sound completely different, for better or worse. But at least it would be "we did it our best" instead of "we played it all to Bruce."
Bruce is not an instrumentalist but composed entire song. Yeah, that is admirable. But that doesn't automatically make it great. Listen, tomorrow I can apply for marathon and run the whole thing for 11 hours. I may get a small article in "Believe it or not" category in newspaper, but I doubt that in near future some P.E. teacher would be: "Listen kids! One time, old Spambot smoked half a pack of cigarettes, drank couple of beers and next morning - he ran the entire marathon!" That may speak about my determination, but it doesn't say a thing about hard-work, talent, strategy, or whatever. If it was a Bruce solo effort, for his solo album, I might view it different. But for fuck sake, you had 5 other guys in the room next to you, 5 other guys whose ingredients made Maiden what they are.
In lack of words for my disappointment with this song, I'll quote one MaidenFans member (I think it was Mosh) who summed it up pretty nicely:
"Empire just is and then it isn't."
There.