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IRON MAIDEN REFERENDUM 2020: Results -> Hallowed Be Thy Name wins for the 5th time!
- Thread starter Night Prowler
- Start date
Jer
'Til Tomorrow
Put me in the Paschendexit column!
Yes, it’s certainly worthy of remarks. The content of those remarks is where people disagree.
I missed the boat on the Brave New World discussion, although I think it can be fun to talk about the album as it relates to Virtual XI because I hear a lot more of Brave New World in Virtual than I do X Factor. Furthermore, I think a lot of what we enjoy about modern Maiden begins with Virtual XI. Brave New World might be the first album by the current lineup, but it is the second album to have that "modern" sound. I tend to agree with much of LC's take on the album. It has a lot of problems and some of their worst material. It is definitely a turning point album. Some failed experiments and some tunes that really break the mold. Overall, I think the band is trying to marry their 80's meat-and-potatoes Metal sound with the more cerebral elements of X Factor.
So how do you get from a low point in Maiden's discography, what many at the time may have seen as the final death knell of a great 80s band, to one of their most revered efforts and what I previously called the most important Metal album of this century? I think the biggest thing holding back Virtual is the performances and the production. The band sounds tired to me. This album is widely regarded as Nicko's worst performance in the band, a well-deserved criticism. There are many excellent guitar solos and melodies, but outside of the instrumental sections the guitar parts are pretty uninspired. It's often either the two guitarists holding out power chords or following the vocal line (the latter of which is a trait that continues to this day which I'm not super fond of in most cases). Blaze sounds bored/uninspired and the band continues writing music with Bruce's voice in mind instead of reimagining their sound to fit Blaze's strengths. The production doesn't help. I find the guitar tone seriously grating and the mastering sucks any remaining amount of life from the music. This album has one dynamic: kind of loud.
Brave New World is not that different in songwriting, but it is probably the best performed and produced album the band has ever put out. Everyone is on fire, there is a lot of variety in what the three guitarists are playing, Bruce sounds like he is trying to make a statement, and Nicko is back to his old self. The production has a lot more dynamics and sounds polished enough without losing the live energy. It strikes the perfect balance. Apply all these things to Virtual XI without changing a single other thing, you at least get an enjoyable album. Still many songwriting flaws, but I think it would at least be seen as above average rather than one of the worst albums the band put out. I think the popularity of The Clansman is actually proof of this. That song isn't without the flaws of the rest of the album, but the Rock In Rio version gave it a second chance with a lot of fans and it is still performed live.
This album gets maligned for the repetitive choruses, especially on Angel and the Gambler and Don't Look to the Eyes of a Stranger. The repetitive criticism has always been a fascination to me because it has been such a staple of Maiden's sound since the very beginning. Yet it's the first thing people point to when complaining about newer material. It makes me think that this criticism is often from folks who don't really know how to listen to elements of music beyond the vocals and can't articulate a more nuanced critique. Blood Brothers, Brave New World, and Dream of Mirrors are very repetitive, yet they stand as some of the most popular songs on the album and two of those continue to be played live to this day. Blood Brothers, especially, can safely be counted among the band's "classic" songs along with the likes of The Trooper and Run To the Hills (also repetitive songs). We also know that at least some elements of some of these songs probably originated during the Virtual XI sessions. Even The Clansman seems to be given a pass despite having many repetitive sections.
So how do these songs work while Angel and Stranger do not? The repetitive choruses themselves aren't really a problem as much as the fact that there's not much going on beneath the choruses. You can put as many different lyrics or vocal melodies as you want during these parts, they would still feel pretty dull to most listeners. There's a lack of dynamics in the production, the guitarists aren't doing much more than holding out power chords, Nicko acts as a human drum machine. There's no momentum in the music, no drama, no energy. Add some rhythmic/harmonic tension to these songs and suddenly the repetitive choruses no longer stick out like a sore thumb. Brighter Than a Thousand Suns is the template for doing this successfully. For an earlier example, check out Seventh Son of a Seventh Son.
With all that said, there are a lot of remarkable things on Virtual XI. There are many seeds of great ideas. I would love to hear songs like When Two Worlds Collide and Lightning Strikes Twice with Bruce on vocals and the production of Brave New World. Even the version of Two Worlds on Blaze's live album provides a rendition of the song that makes it a stand out track.
So how do you get from a low point in Maiden's discography, what many at the time may have seen as the final death knell of a great 80s band, to one of their most revered efforts and what I previously called the most important Metal album of this century? I think the biggest thing holding back Virtual is the performances and the production. The band sounds tired to me. This album is widely regarded as Nicko's worst performance in the band, a well-deserved criticism. There are many excellent guitar solos and melodies, but outside of the instrumental sections the guitar parts are pretty uninspired. It's often either the two guitarists holding out power chords or following the vocal line (the latter of which is a trait that continues to this day which I'm not super fond of in most cases). Blaze sounds bored/uninspired and the band continues writing music with Bruce's voice in mind instead of reimagining their sound to fit Blaze's strengths. The production doesn't help. I find the guitar tone seriously grating and the mastering sucks any remaining amount of life from the music. This album has one dynamic: kind of loud.
Brave New World is not that different in songwriting, but it is probably the best performed and produced album the band has ever put out. Everyone is on fire, there is a lot of variety in what the three guitarists are playing, Bruce sounds like he is trying to make a statement, and Nicko is back to his old self. The production has a lot more dynamics and sounds polished enough without losing the live energy. It strikes the perfect balance. Apply all these things to Virtual XI without changing a single other thing, you at least get an enjoyable album. Still many songwriting flaws, but I think it would at least be seen as above average rather than one of the worst albums the band put out. I think the popularity of The Clansman is actually proof of this. That song isn't without the flaws of the rest of the album, but the Rock In Rio version gave it a second chance with a lot of fans and it is still performed live.
This album gets maligned for the repetitive choruses, especially on Angel and the Gambler and Don't Look to the Eyes of a Stranger. The repetitive criticism has always been a fascination to me because it has been such a staple of Maiden's sound since the very beginning. Yet it's the first thing people point to when complaining about newer material. It makes me think that this criticism is often from folks who don't really know how to listen to elements of music beyond the vocals and can't articulate a more nuanced critique. Blood Brothers, Brave New World, and Dream of Mirrors are very repetitive, yet they stand as some of the most popular songs on the album and two of those continue to be played live to this day. Blood Brothers, especially, can safely be counted among the band's "classic" songs along with the likes of The Trooper and Run To the Hills (also repetitive songs). We also know that at least some elements of some of these songs probably originated during the Virtual XI sessions. Even The Clansman seems to be given a pass despite having many repetitive sections.
So how do these songs work while Angel and Stranger do not? The repetitive choruses themselves aren't really a problem as much as the fact that there's not much going on beneath the choruses. You can put as many different lyrics or vocal melodies as you want during these parts, they would still feel pretty dull to most listeners. There's a lack of dynamics in the production, the guitarists aren't doing much more than holding out power chords, Nicko acts as a human drum machine. There's no momentum in the music, no drama, no energy. Add some rhythmic/harmonic tension to these songs and suddenly the repetitive choruses no longer stick out like a sore thumb. Brighter Than a Thousand Suns is the template for doing this successfully. For an earlier example, check out Seventh Son of a Seventh Son.
With all that said, there are a lot of remarkable things on Virtual XI. There are many seeds of great ideas. I would love to hear songs like When Two Worlds Collide and Lightning Strikes Twice with Bruce on vocals and the production of Brave New World. Even the version of Two Worlds on Blaze's live album provides a rendition of the song that makes it a stand out track.
Shmoolikipod
Stranger to the Light
Thanks for saying VXI began the modern sound Mosh... I thought about when it began, and I tried attributing it to the different reunion albums, and realized BNW has that sound already, but I still felt I've heard it before original sound so I (somehow) decided it's just 80s Maiden with older Bruce voice. I guess I was so fixed on this "post reunion" term I forgot about VXI, and I think it's correct to say it was the beginning, even if Bruce wasn't there.
I was about to sue you, but then I realized you're not talking about Stranger in a Strange Land
karljant
Ancient Mariner
100% agreed. That's why I'm not too fond of either.
It depends. The like for calm down intros has its origins in The X Factor. A stronger take on keyboards brings us back to 7th Son. Then we have the uniqueness of A Matter Of Life And Death (a modern day album I think sounds substantially different from anything the band did since 1998 (mood like I would say the album it reminds the most is The X Factor). Then there's the 3 guitar work. The only recurring major trait I can remember of that had its inception point in Virtual XI was Harris' increasing like of power chords and strumming and some "forced" and repetitive song structures. I agree with you regarding Virtual XI, BNW and The Book Of Souls. These 3 albums have a considerable amount of similar traits. But IMO Dance Of Death and The Final Frontier are a tad bit different from that lot way more similar among each other. AMOLAD is majorly a thing of its own.
... Well, I perfectly agree with you regarding Brave New World, and Dream of Mirrors. But what you miss completely on the other examples is that other "repetitive chorus" songs aren't based in two major sections like these and have a plethora of excellent and memorable arrangements on one hand and/or are quite brief on the other. First we must have in account the number of repetitions and in that regard Brave New World, Dream Of Mirrors, DLTTEOAS and TAATG are on the top tier of "echo chamber effect". Then those are 6 to 10 minutes long songs in 4/4 and composed mainly of 2 major parts that IMO aren't on pair of other repetitive chorus songs like i.e. : Run To The Hills (besides the amazing arrangements pretty brief), The Final Frontier (if we skip the intro it's also brief), Heaven Can Wait (from the synth intro to its coda the damn thing goes through twists and turns and IMO none of them is slightly forced), The Wicker Man, The Clansman, Afraid To Shoot Strangers, among many others. Another trait common to these songs is the excellence of its composition and the way each part easily flows into the next without sounding forced or tiring (and that's where I think the aforementioned songs fail the most).
And the reasons why most people still like Blood Brothers even with its repetitive chorus are many. It starts with the time signature: instead of the normal rock 4/4 this a waltz like composition in a 3/4 tempo. Then none of the transitions sound forced: what seems to be a bass intro quickly becomes the underlying basement of the guitar melody, and the chorus explodes perfectly on top of that structure. Furthermore the bridge is absolutely gorgeous and perfectly connected to the rest of the composition and is particularly crowd appealing , giving a crescendo to the song till it bursts on a last chorus even more layered and pompous. The fact is that Blood Brothers, either you like the song or not, justifies every second of its 7 plus length while the others seem to chase their own tail on a loop like mode.
Other than that, liking this or that song is a simple matter of taste. As an example: Fear Is The Key doesn't suffer from any of those handicaps and I really find the damn thing an abomination.
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
Yes, but that doesn't negate the point that the judgment here is subjective and taste-based, not something we can put through empirical testing, rational discussion or any other fact-based scrutiny. The results will reflect the average taste among Maidenfans, it won't be "accurate" or "correct" in any way. The comments should reflect that and shouldn't attack each other on grounds of accuracy or merit.
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It means that if 52 per cent of participants choose something it's a landslide victory and clearly the will of the vast majority of people.
Black Wizard
Pleb Hunter
I'll be out on the streets demanding a People's Vote if 'The Fugitive' doesn't win.It means that if 52 per cent of participants choose something it's a landslide victory and clearly the will of the vast majority of people.
karljant
Ancient Mariner
Agreed 100% and it stuns me how that even has to be reiterated.
P.S. : Exceptions are defending Fear Is The Key, TAATG, Gangland or Hooks in You... songs that are scientifically proved to be crap.
MrKnickerbocker
clap hands
Voted for VXI except Futureal, Clansman, and Amigos.
It’s telling that two of those have Blaze writing credits. If we saved a fourth song, I’d choose Lightning Strikes Twice (a candidate for future Wrathchildren reworking if all are up for a bit of madness). There’s a correlation between the songs Blaze helped write and his performance in those songs. Steve’s burnout/production duties/90s malaise are felt HARD and those added sparks from other members are responsible for this album being even somewhat listenable.
I totally agree with those people saying this album sounds more like BNW than X Factor (or No Prayer/FOTD). They are definitely reaching that sound, but this is an obvious stepping stone. A wobbly stepping stone. Balanced on a pile of other wobbly stepping stones. The tone of what would become the modern Maiden sound is present, but the dreadful compositions, awful production, and lackluster performances drag this thing into the depths.
I also voted for Virus - which sounds more like a transitional growing pain than anything I’ve ever heard. It’s literally a song in three separate parts (one a dull X Factor reboot, one a typical bland Maiden rocker, and one...something bizarre and impish) with no cohesion at all.
It’s telling that two of those have Blaze writing credits. If we saved a fourth song, I’d choose Lightning Strikes Twice (a candidate for future Wrathchildren reworking if all are up for a bit of madness). There’s a correlation between the songs Blaze helped write and his performance in those songs. Steve’s burnout/production duties/90s malaise are felt HARD and those added sparks from other members are responsible for this album being even somewhat listenable.
I totally agree with those people saying this album sounds more like BNW than X Factor (or No Prayer/FOTD). They are definitely reaching that sound, but this is an obvious stepping stone. A wobbly stepping stone. Balanced on a pile of other wobbly stepping stones. The tone of what would become the modern Maiden sound is present, but the dreadful compositions, awful production, and lackluster performances drag this thing into the depths.
I also voted for Virus - which sounds more like a transitional growing pain than anything I’ve ever heard. It’s literally a song in three separate parts (one a dull X Factor reboot, one a typical bland Maiden rocker, and one...something bizarre and impish) with no cohesion at all.
Black Wizard
Pleb Hunter
Brighter Than A Thousand Suns
For The Greater Good of God
Lord of Light
Blood Brothers
Lightning Strikes Twice
The Clansman
When Two Worlds Collide
'Virtual XI' is a weak album but I don't hate anything on it so have only voted for three songs for now. It's largely bland and unremarkable.
For The Greater Good of God
Lord of Light
Blood Brothers
Lightning Strikes Twice
The Clansman
When Two Worlds Collide
'Virtual XI' is a weak album but I don't hate anything on it so have only voted for three songs for now. It's largely bland and unremarkable.
Looks like I'm the last person left here who genuinely loves Virtual XI.
That's OK. It's sad, but it's OK.
I do hear what most people criticise about it. Yes, the production is sterile. Yes, Steve is not a very good drummer. Yes, repetition is used as a shortcut for epicness. It's all true. It's not a very diverse album either. Only TAATG stands out as something really different and something Maiden had never really done before, and yes, it's one of the lesser songs on the album. And yes, you can hear Blaze's limitations.
*sigh*
And yet, I love every bit of it. As I said earlier, I do not look on Maiden's albums objectively, nor do I see a reason for doing so. Virtual XI was with me during some tough growing pains and although it didn't have the same impact on me as The X Factor did (more on that in due time), it was a source of inspiration and reflection. There is a very strong underlying melancholy to the album, which is hardly surprising given the general context of the album, and it is actually the saddest Maiden album in tone. Observe how the keyboards in TAATG try a cheerful kick that is just completely contradicted by the heaviness of the guitars - it paints a portrait of someone who is trying to be hopeful and cheery while at the same time he is actually lost and empty inside, a logical interpretation of someone being addicted to something like gambling (I say logical because I don't know if it's truthful - but it makes sense to me). Such interactions can be found throughout the album.
I still listen to VXI very often. More frequently than Powerslave, that's for sure.
I do. The Educated Fool is one of my favourite songs ever. The underlying structure of the album, while maybe not terribly original, is perfectly written. It has amazing solos, one of Blaze's best performances with the band, an incredible chorus that gives you a sense of openness of your pursuits while at the same time leaving you heartbroken for all that you leave behind and what you will never find.
I do. Don't Look to the Eyes of a Stranger my least favourite song on the album for reasons I once elaborated somewhere I forgot, but like all VXI songs, it is truly energetic and engaging live. It's a classic Maiden tune when it gets to the instrumental section. They dropped it after the first few gigs on the tour unfortunately, but it's worth tracking down a bootleg from early in the tour for this. Como Estais Amigos could have been a great Maiden anthem, and like many decisions concerning the album (like having TAATG as the first single), I'm really unsure why it was never played live.
Better than you'd think, cf. bootlegs from the tour. Lighting Strikes Twice in Buenos Aires 1998 is almost Fear of the Dark level during the guitar melodies. Overall, the South American bootlegs are great evidence for what VXI sounds like when played to a welcoming audience. Hadn't all but two songs from the album been buried after 1998, a good number of live classics could have emerged from it.
If you want to be serious about this, it has its origin in Somewhere in Time. Play the first few seconds of every Maiden song in order and you'll hear what I mean.
That's OK. It's sad, but it's OK.
I do hear what most people criticise about it. Yes, the production is sterile. Yes, Steve is not a very good drummer. Yes, repetition is used as a shortcut for epicness. It's all true. It's not a very diverse album either. Only TAATG stands out as something really different and something Maiden had never really done before, and yes, it's one of the lesser songs on the album. And yes, you can hear Blaze's limitations.
*sigh*
And yet, I love every bit of it. As I said earlier, I do not look on Maiden's albums objectively, nor do I see a reason for doing so. Virtual XI was with me during some tough growing pains and although it didn't have the same impact on me as The X Factor did (more on that in due time), it was a source of inspiration and reflection. There is a very strong underlying melancholy to the album, which is hardly surprising given the general context of the album, and it is actually the saddest Maiden album in tone. Observe how the keyboards in TAATG try a cheerful kick that is just completely contradicted by the heaviness of the guitars - it paints a portrait of someone who is trying to be hopeful and cheery while at the same time he is actually lost and empty inside, a logical interpretation of someone being addicted to something like gambling (I say logical because I don't know if it's truthful - but it makes sense to me). Such interactions can be found throughout the album.
I still listen to VXI very often. More frequently than Powerslave, that's for sure.
I do. The Educated Fool is one of my favourite songs ever. The underlying structure of the album, while maybe not terribly original, is perfectly written. It has amazing solos, one of Blaze's best performances with the band, an incredible chorus that gives you a sense of openness of your pursuits while at the same time leaving you heartbroken for all that you leave behind and what you will never find.
I do. Don't Look to the Eyes of a Stranger my least favourite song on the album for reasons I once elaborated somewhere I forgot, but like all VXI songs, it is truly energetic and engaging live. It's a classic Maiden tune when it gets to the instrumental section. They dropped it after the first few gigs on the tour unfortunately, but it's worth tracking down a bootleg from early in the tour for this. Como Estais Amigos could have been a great Maiden anthem, and like many decisions concerning the album (like having TAATG as the first single), I'm really unsure why it was never played live.
Better than you'd think, cf. bootlegs from the tour. Lighting Strikes Twice in Buenos Aires 1998 is almost Fear of the Dark level during the guitar melodies. Overall, the South American bootlegs are great evidence for what VXI sounds like when played to a welcoming audience. Hadn't all but two songs from the album been buried after 1998, a good number of live classics could have emerged from it.
If you want to be serious about this, it has its origin in Somewhere in Time. Play the first few seconds of every Maiden song in order and you'll hear what I mean.
KidInTheDark666
What's yours is mine and what's mine is mine too
I love Virtual XI, but it's very unfortunate that it had to face the best songs of BNW and AMOLAD. There's no contest really.
Voted for For The Greater Good Of God, The Legacy, The Wicker Man, Lightning Strikes Twice, When Two Worlds Collide, The Educated Fool, Don't Look To The Eyes Of A Stranger, Como Estais Amigos and Virus.
MrKnickerbocker
clap hands
I am glad to see such a well defended positive view on the album, but I liken that first point to literature professors assigning meaning to works of art that were never intended by the author. If that’s the takeaway you get from those poorly produced, too loud “string” sections, I’m glad you enjoy them, but I cannot in any way believe Steve thought that deeply about their purpose.
For a song about being “educated”, the verse lyrics in TEF could not be worse. They are so obviously written to fit a rhythmic melody as the repetitive use of “just” and “really” is truly comical. Chorus is good, but those harmonies on the pre-chorus are unbelievably grating. It’s mind boggling that Steve chose to add harmonies on this song but never considered adding them on TAATG to liven up the 49 repetitions of the chorus.
Diesel 11
As you scream into the web of silence...
Counterpoint: Music can be interpreted in all sorts of ways by the listener, even ways that the original artist didn’t envision. Just because Steve wasn’t conscious about such a decision doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not there. It’s up to the listener to feel it for himself.
karljant
Ancient Mariner
SIT:
Caught Somewhere In Time: goes off a electric guitar lead line with synth guitars. By second 19 all the band is playing a full metal tune and by second 53 the whole band is going at full speed.
Wasted Years: starts with one of the most uplifting distorted guitar leads Smith ever came up with and the band comes crashing in at second 13.
Sea Of Madness: no calm intro.
Heaven Can Wait: starts with a tense synth ambiance and bass and a brief lead until it explodes 24 seconds after.
Loneliness Of The Long Distance Runner: starts with a calm guitar lead until the rest of the band enters giving weight to it by the 25 second mark and the whole thing goes uptempo at second 49.
Stranger In A Strange Land: starts with the bass line and the rest of the band comes storming in 9 seconds later.
Deja Vu: acoustic guitar base with a electric guitar solo 30 seconds long and then its off to the races.
Alexander The Great: The only true long calm intro here... the thing only kicks in at 1 minute 45 seconds (Sign Of the Cross reminds me a lot of this one and they're both great).
TXF:
Sign Of The Cross: this monument has 2 minutes and 45 seconds of clean intro... Gregorian chants, acoustic guitar and electric guitar cleans (and what an hell of an intro)
Lord Of The Flies: no calm intro.
Man On The Edge: brief melodic intro and then pedal to the metal.
Fortunes of War: the first trace of a metal song here is 2 seconds shy of 2 minutes into the song only to come back to the same slow ambiance... the main riff only establishes itself at the 2 minute 45 second mark.
Look For The Truth: calm intro based on acoustic guitar that goes on for 1 minute 39 seconds.
The Aftermath: calm intro based on acoustic guitar with electric guitar lead that clocks at 30 seconds.
Judgement Of Heaven: calm bass and electric guitar crescendo until the song starts storming at second 51.
Blood On The World's Hands: acoustic bass intro for 1 minute and 13 seconds.
2 AM: main verse played in calm acoustic fashion for 1 minute and 7 seconds till the chorus goes heavy.
The Unbeliever: no calm intro.
I love both album but... saying the calm down intros is SIT origin-ed?
Seriously???
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MrKnickerbocker
clap hands
Absolutely! I was not trying to imply that anybody’s interpretations were incorrect, but I do strongly believe that an artist’s compositional choices shouldn’t be overblown. If you can find genius in a song like TAATG, than you are certainly more enlightened than I.