Illegal inmigrants in the U.S.

Well, I believe that illegal immigration in all countries is a thing which can, and should, be stopped.

If the countries receiving the immigrants do not wish this to happen, they should endevour to aid the country where these immigrants are from to further their economic developments, creating more jobs, and lessening then need for immigration.

This is obviously not only a problem in the US, and I believe that it would be a benefit to the whole global economy were such countries to do as I have suggested.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Not_Bruce_Dickinson+Jan 24 2006, 03:29 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Not_Bruce_Dickinson @ Jan 24 2006, 03:29 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Well, I believe that illegal immigration in all countries is a thing which can, and should, be stopped.
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Should? Well, that's what we're debating here.
But can??? Not a chance in hell.

Here's a simple fact about human nature:
If someone wants to do something badly enough, they will find a way.
No matter how much law enforcement power is thrown at stopping illegal immigration, there will always be people who find a way to get through.
You may be able to reduce it, but you can never stop it.

On a somewhat related topic:
As a Colorado resident, I've always thought my state had a significant Hispanic population. Yesterday, I saw the actual numbers from the 2000 census, and I was kind of right: roughly 1 in 6 people in Colorado identified themselves as Hispanic in that census. So that does seem like a lot when you're just observing people locally.
However, Colorado is not especially Hispanic-heavy compared the rest of the US. We have almost exactly 1/50th of the US Hispanics here. So we're just about average. That surprised me; I would have thought we'd be above average.
 
[!--quoteo--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]Mexico was involved in a war against the French from 1862-67.[/quote]
Honestly, thanks, I did not know that, wasn't trying to start an online fight, more of a rhetorical question. Although the Confederacy's long-term plan was to annex Mexico, and during the war, there was an unsuccussful attempt to annex Cuba.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]wow. really serious topic for a metal forum. What i want to know is why all the negative attitude to illegal immigration. theyre not hurting anyone. Their just looking for a better life. the thing that really pisses me off is the 'they took my job' attitude. If you lost your job its your own fault so dont have a cry to the immigrants.[/quote]

So what you are saying is "Immigration Policy Is Mean?" There are 5 billion people in the world who live in countries poorer than Mexico, and as I stated earlier, Mexico does not have such a pourus border as the US does. Keep in mind one thing: my country (maybe yours if you live in the US) is already taking in far more immigrants every year than any other country in the world. This extremely high rate of immigration is causing our nation to undergo massive changes—changes the majority of the people of this country don't even want. Again, it is not mean to control our borders. It is necessary and realistic. What seems mean to me is leaving our children a country twice as populated as we found it , with people who don't speak the language or relate to our culture, for no good reason other than that we were too lazy, or too cringing, or too benighted, to defend our borders. Furthermore, the debate over US immigration always seems to go back to US/Mexico, but there has been a recent increase in illegal immigration of Iraquis, Iranians, Pakistanians, etc, you have to control all immigration.
As I get older I find myself taking less of a conservative stance on social issues, but this is one thing I feel very strongly about.
 
[!--quoteo(post=128665:date=Feb 9 2006, 03:42 AM:name=MexicanBurtReynolds)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(MexicanBurtReynolds @ Feb 9 2006, 03:42 AM) [snapback]128665[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
Keep in mind one thing: my country (maybe yours if you live in the US) is already taking in far more immigrants every year than any other country in the world. This extremely high rate of immigration is causing our nation to undergo massive changes—changes the majority of the people of this country don't even want.
[/quote]
Yes, God forbid we face changes we don't want like letting women vote, or letting black folks vote and ride the front of the bus and even attend the same school as white folks or how about interracial marriage? or even same-sex marriages? Yes we should stop all the changes we don't want...
 
Let's face it: the majority of people are dumb. So if they don't like an idea, it's probably a good one. [img src=\"style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\" style=\"vertical-align:middle\" emoid=\":D\" border=\"0\" alt=\"biggrin.gif\" /]
 
Reminds me of something Winston Churchill once said: the best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
 
[!--quoteo(post=128682:date=Feb 9 2006, 07:25 PM:name=national acrobat)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(national acrobat @ Feb 9 2006, 07:25 PM) [snapback]128682[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
Reminds me of something Winston Churchill once said: the best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
[/quote]
So sad, but so true... ::
 
[!--quoteo(post=128682:date=Feb 9 2006, 07:25 PM:name=national acrobat)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(national acrobat @ Feb 9 2006, 07:25 PM) [snapback]128682[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
Reminds me of something Winston Churchill once said: the best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.[/quote]A great sentence. But has anyone ever come up with a better system that would actually last?
 
I've already answered this one. A dictatorship for the *good* of the *people*. [img src=\"style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/happy.gif\" style=\"vertical-align:middle\" emoid=\"^_^\" border=\"0\" alt=\"happy.gif\" /]
 
May I again refer you all to Winston Churchill:
"Democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
 
I may be going out on a limb here but I think churchill and hitler were similar in ONE way. Hitler wanted the perfect tall, strong, blonde, blue eyed race and he was short, scrawny and ugly. Churchill wanted... no wait, I think he actually engaged or at least condoned Eugenics while he himself suffered dislexia or something of the sort.
 
Jeffmetal, your post is borderline racist and insulting. And it doesn't really make sense either. ::
 
[!--quoteo(post=128723:date=Feb 10 2006, 02:40 AM:name=JEFFMETAL)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(JEFFMETAL @ Feb 10 2006, 02:40 AM) [snapback]128723[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
And when they knew that their white, blue eyed chicks loved to feel a big cock of the 'not pure' (like me) and later their disciples, knew that Pelé and Jimi Hendrix and were living the dream of the perfect white man, they just gone mad and turned the world in this pile of shit!

Not forgeting that Jesus is black also. It really pisses them off! Ahahahahahahahahah...

One just reap what sow.
[/quote]

Black people have big cocks- untrue generalisation
Jesus was Black - Whatever Mate

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Mav, we've benn through this already and it's allmost impossible to realize such a dictatorship. Power corrupts. Ultimate power ultimately corrputs. it would require men of extreme valour and ethic fiber to not give in to the temptation of just doing what they feel with their powers...
 
[!--quoteo(post=128697:date=Feb 9 2006, 03:17 PM:name=Maverick)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Maverick @ Feb 9 2006, 03:17 PM) [snapback]128697[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
I've already answered this one. A dictatorship for the *good* of the *people*. [img src=\"style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/happy.gif\" style=\"vertical-align:middle\" emoid=\"^_^\" border=\"0\" alt=\"happy.gif\" /]
[/quote]
Wait a second - that exactly how Anakin justified his support for the Emperor!

Beware, everyone! Our friend Mav is actually Darth Maverick! [img src=\"style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\" style=\"vertical-align:middle\" emoid=\":P\" border=\"0\" alt=\"tongue.gif\" /]
 
[!--quoteo--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

[!--quoteo(post=128696:date=Feb 9 2006, 04:50 PM:name=SilentLucidity)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SilentLucidity @ Feb 9 2006, 04:50 PM) [snapback]128696[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
A great sentence. But has anyone ever come up with a better system that would actually last?
[/quote]
[/quote]

What does it mean for a system to last? Sure, the American Republic lasted a little over 200 years whereas the Soviet empire only lasted a little under 50. But it would be hasty to generalize from that, and in any case, I'm not sure what's so great about "lasting." In one sense, the American Republic endures to this day, but it has clearly lost touch with its original republican values of government of the people, for the people and by the people. America has become a country where elections are decided more by fear, ignorance and electoral momentum than by the informed judgments of the populace, where civil rights take a back seat to executive power and corporate financial interests trump the welfare of the people. In a sense, America has lasted for 220 years and will probably last a good while longer...but I don't think that the last 50 years of American history are a good argument for democracy.

People have pointed out that while defective, democracy is the best system we've come up with because "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Now, I don't know if there is a better system than democracy, but I don't think the "power corrupts" argument has much force. The idea, I take it, is that a dictator has absolute power and so will inevitably be "absolutely corrupted," whereas democratic leaders have limited power and so are only partially corrupt. But that is silly! Counter-examples are not hard to find. Ataturk was, by all real measures, a dictator for about 30 years, but by no measure was he a corrupt politician. He may have had his faults, but he saved his country both from anihilation at the hands of european mercenaries as well as from ignorant and reactionary islamists and then refused to be crowned King of Turkey opting instead to begin developing deomcratic institutions. Vladimir Putin and Silvio Berlusconi were both democratically elected and yet are among the most corrupt politicians in the developed world. Bush (had he been democratically elected) would be another good example of a power-grabing, self-serving democratic leader.

Corruption of character and principle is a process, not an event. Political leaders and political institutions do not become corrupted overnight. It is a gradual proces. The American and Roman Republics are perfect examples of how republican institutions are slowly corrupted and have a tendency to degenerate into empires more concerned with the economic interests of their respective ruling classes and their own perpetuation than with the republican values upon which they were founded. The only thing that can slow down this process is a system of checks and balances where each branch of governement is charged with oversight responsibilities over another branch. This doesn't stop corruption, but it does slow down its spread. We had such a system in the United States for the first 150 years of its existence, but since FDR in th 1930s, the executive branch has slowly taken more and more power away from the legislative branch effectively depriving the congress of its role as a check on the presidency. In my opinionk, every president since FDR (except, perhaps, Carter) has contributed to this trend, and GW Bush is trying very hard to drive the last nail through the coffin of American Democracy.

So, in response to the "power corrupts" argument, one might respond that "democracy degenerates."
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Jeffmetal+--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Jeffmetal)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]
Let me tell ya, i don't know if you are short, scrawny or dyslexic, but you are being a hypocrite.

'White man came across the sea. He brought us pain and misery'. That sums up the issue and it was long before Churchill/Hitler/Mussolini/Bush.
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Are you suggesting that Maverick is a hypocrite for calling you a racist when his membership in the white race (supposing he is white) makes him responsible for all the pain and misery of non-whites on this planet?

The white men who exterminated (or came very close to exterminating) north-american natives were responsible for a great many atrocities. But their guilt is not the the guilt of every white person on the planet -- then or now.

Actually, I don't know what the fuck you're trying to say. Why is Maverick a hypocrite? Because he is either short, scrawny or dyslexic? [img src=\"style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\" style=\"vertical-align:middle\" emoid=\":P\" border=\"0\" alt=\"tongue.gif\" /] Because he said your post was racist? He may be mistaken, but why does that make him a hypocrite? Do you even know what that word means?


[!--quoteo--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
It is really sad that people may be so hypocrites, but i don't think there are legal immigrants in U.S.A. 'cos all are discrimined.
[/quote]

::
Being discriminated against does not make you illegal. Do you even know what any of the words you are using mean?


[!--quoteo--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
It is so stupid to get into these issues. We should have respect for anybody elses.
[/quote]

Yes we should. And perhaps part of what it means to be have respect for others is not to suggest that all white women prefer black cocks. That is disrespectful -- above all -- to white women. No doubt some white women do prefer black cocks, but I doubt that there is any useful or even true generalizations along racial lines to be made here. (some white men prefer black cocks too!)


[!--quoteo--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
stupidity is the most abundant element of he universe [/quote]

Indeed it is. ::
 
[!--quoteo(post=128730:date=Feb 10 2006, 03:54 AM:name=Black Ace)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Black Ace @ Feb 10 2006, 03:54 AM) [snapback]128730[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
Mav, we've benn through this already and it's allmost impossible to realize such a dictatorship. Power corrupts. Ultimate power ultimately corrputs. it would require men of extreme valour and ethic fiber to not give in to the temptation of just doing what they feel with their powers...
[/quote]

I totally agree. A dictatorship sounds good on paper, but a man cannot usually practice self-restraint when he is given complete control over a nation. It would take someone who can contain themselves extremely well to be able to handle such a job. A lot of dictators become very unsecure about themselves and are devoured by their lust for power and desire to keep it.

A good example would be MacBeth, and yes, I know its a Shakespeare playwrite, but I think MacBeth's lust for power and his desire to keep his power can be applied to the topic of a dictatorship.
 
everything sounds good on paper, but we are tu freakin' stupid to stick with any system to the letter.
 
I'd like to briefly highjack this thread to answer Jeffmetal's unfounded accusations.

Blatant racist posts are usually deleted and the poster warned in private, whichever way the racism goes. The human variety (I don't use the term 'race', as it is erroneous when talking about the human species) I personally belong to is irrelevant; it doesn't matter to me, as I feel neither pride nor shame to be what I am in biological terms.

I personally feel quite a lot of contempt for people who think they are 'superior' because they belong to an ethnic group or another. I also tend to be angered by people who use the same ethnicity factor in a paranoid attempt to justify why they're not liked by others.

Jeffmetal, have you ever considered that you are being judged by your words and actions and not by the colour of your skin (mostly on a forum where people don't even know what you look like, certainly don't care about it anyway)?
 
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