God all over the world

[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Dec 15 2005, 11:00 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Dec 15 2005, 11:00 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I'm afraid you didn't understand what I said and you are taking up to much space saying a whole lot of nothing... God is not smarter than us.. he is GREATER.  You missing my point just proves it... funny hu? I never recommended anything, don't put words in my mouth....
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Yes, I did misunderstand. I thought you were claiming that me and my puny little brain can't make any judgments about the existence or nature of God because he is so radically awesome and infinite that I and my finite self couldn't hope to begin to understand him. (If anyone is tempted by this argument, please see what I wrote above.) But now I see you meant to be saying something else. Something like this: God is so radically awesome that he never makes any mistakes so I couldn't possibly *blame* him for anything as I was trying to do .

Now did I understand you? (Note: I am not trying to "put words in your mouth," I am trying to interpret you). Well, in that case I suppose I'll just have to politely disagree. I don't believe in any radically awesome, infallible being. If, like Bertrand Russell, I go to meet my maker when I die, then I'll have to admit I was wrong about the existence of God, but in that case I would insist on the fallibility of God since he expected me to believe in him without presenting me with any good reason or evidence. And that is a mistake; a moral mistake.
 
Well I'm glad things are cleared up, that was what I meant to say and since where you stand is also made clear I have to say I have no objection... not that you need my approval by any means, but it does render this (our) discussion over and done with.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Dec 16 2005, 03:57 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Dec 16 2005, 03:57 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Well I'm glad things are cleared up, that was what I meant to say and since where you stand is also made clear I have to say I have no objection... not that you need my approval by any means, but it does render this (our) discussion over and done with.
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In what sense do you have no objection? Certainly you disagree with what I said, no? I'm glad things are cleared up, but I don't see how it follows from that that our discussion is over. I presented arguments against your position. You can choose to not respond but that doesn't mean that the conversation is over in the sense that anything got resolved.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here. I'm actually curious. Why do you believe in God?
 
Well my objection was: how can you say God made a mistake if He is perfect. Then you stated that you don't think that if there is a god he is perfect, thus he can make mistakes. As long as people are consistent with what they say I have no problem with what they believe.

As to my position I haven't really said what it is outside from I believe. But here is the tip of the iceberg

I believe in God because to me the world, the human body etc is too perfect to be an accident.... disasters and disorders included.
 
I agree with onhell, because I find terrible the idea of being a coincidence, I believe I am in this world for a reason, not just only because another pair of human beings reproduced. I have felt God many times, like in those times you are so sad and you want to cry, and then you start "talking" to God, whenever this happens to me, well, I feel a lot better when I "talk" to Him, or what about when you have a bad day, everything is going bad, and then, something very good happens and you cheer up, was this a coincidence? I don't think so. I like a lot the idea of being safe, I like a lot the idea that someone bigger than me, is protecting me.

Oh, yeah, Macunaima, please let me tell you that you have to search for God, otherwise He will not search for you, He gave us free will, and it's up to you to decide whatever you want to do, but, at least, try to believe, and I promise you won't regret it when you do.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Metal_made+Dec 15 2005, 01:12 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Metal_made @ Dec 15 2005, 01:12 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I know all that Per, but, isn't it unfair?, I mean, if you are a good guy, and you try to help everyone else,  you shouldn't be condemned.
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Yes, it is unfair. That is one of the reasons why I do not accept Christianity (or any other Abrahamic faith) as my religion.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Perun+Dec 14 2005, 02:57 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Perun @ Dec 14 2005, 02:57 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Marcus and Mathew both say that you have to believe in God to go to heaven. John is a bit different. He says that you have to believe in the words of Jesus to go to heaven (12:46-50).
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Actually, you have to accept Jesus as your savior, because I don't think that the act of believing there is a God is enough, because it contradicts itself. If you believe that God exists, then you probably believe that so does the devil, and according to Christian beliefs, the devil is out there to try to seperate people from God, knowing that God does exist and that the words of Jesus where true, but yet, the devil is due to burn in hell forever. So I don't think that believing in God is enough. One has to accept Jesus as his savior in order to actually be saved.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-macunaima+Dec 15 2005, 08:15 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(macunaima @ Dec 15 2005, 08:15 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--] If, like Bertrand Russell, I go to meet my maker when I die, then I'll have to admit I was wrong about the existence of God, but in that case I would insist on the fallibility of God since he expected me to believe in him without presenting me with any good reason or evidence.  And that is a mistake; a moral mistake.
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God wants people to have faith in him. One of the definitons of faith that I got from Merriam-Webster dictionary is " firm belief in something for which there is no proof". If you have to see it to believe it, then it no longer becomes faith.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Mario88+Dec 17 2005, 04:14 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Mario88 @ Dec 17 2005, 04:14 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Actually, you have to accept Jesus as your savior, because I don't think that the act of believing there is a God is enough, because it contradicts itself. If you believe that God exists, then you probably believe that so does the devil, and according to Christian beliefs, the devil is out there to try to seperate people from God, knowing that God does exist and that the words of Jesus where true, but yet, the devil is due to burn in hell forever. So I don't think that believing in God is enough. One has to accept Jesus as his savior in order to actually be saved.
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Not so my Free Will denying, dualist friend! Jesus says in the sermon on the mount that humility, simple living and LOVE are enough, to Paul it was LOVE above all else and to James (second letter of james chapter two) I believe it was good works.... i might be wrong it's been a while. At any rate, you are right on the accepting Jesus part which was stated by Jesus himself (no one goes to the father, but through me) and Paul. However The Devil is a more interesting case study.

Depending what "Christian" you ask you will get different responses. Some have fully embraced Zoroastrian dualism and say the Devil is Equal to God in power and they are "battling" for human souls, others say he is not equal in power but he has some sort of grudge against him and is just a thorn in God's side.

I Say they are both bullshit. The Devil is one more angel doing his job which happens to be tempting people. He is not equal to God nor is he "battling" him in any way. Both in Job and in Mathew's rendering of Jesus' time in the desert there is no evidence of the devil being "evil", nor "equal" to God. In Job they have a chat and God ALLOWS him to make Job suffer, making it obvious the Devil can't do crap without God's consent. in Mathew the Devil is doing the same thing to Jesus, tempting his human nature... testing him, that is what the devil does, he tests us, he doesn't make us do anything and neither does God. WE HAVE FREE WILL. the free will to believe in him or not, to follow his ways or not, to do "good" or "evil". God is not to blame for racists, rapists, wars or natural disasters. And neither is Satan. The blame falls squarely on us because ultimately it is us making the choices and sometimes we fuck up.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Dec 18 2005, 12:02 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Dec 18 2005, 12:02 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]it is us making the choices and sometimes we fuck up.
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Amazing how that one sentance explains how every problem in the world is started.
 
On a completely unrelated topic, I've been marking exams for a friend of mine who happens to teach Religious Studies here at StFX. One of the classes is World Religions, and some of the shit the kids come up with:

"Pagans are people who think Satan is God and God is Satan and are wrong."

"In order for a religion to be a religion it must have a God, a Son, and a Holy Ghost. These are the three basic requirements for religion."

"If it wasn't for pagans we couldn't have neo-pagans."

"I believe that Mormons might be a sect of Christianity. But maybe that's just their beliefs."

"The three requirements for religion are life, death, and resurrection. Without resurrection you can't have religion. All religions have these things."

"A pagan is a person who believes in feminism. Feminism is also called Wicca."

"The Nation of Islam is different from mainstream Islam because it is not very nice to people."

"The Nation of Islam believes that black people are the 'cream of the earth' which makes no sense because black people are not cream coloured."

"Moonies are like Mormons because both religions start with an M."

"L. Ron Hubbard was an example of a magus figure because Tom Cruise likes his ideas."

And my absolute favourite:

"Taoism is a religion where you pick an animal or a rock to be your god."
 
I swear to you, that's the gospel truth. People are just fucking stupid.

To be fair, it is an "Intro" course, which in Canada/US means it's normally taken by first-years. At StFX, only 60% of first-years make it to second year, and usually only one out of every three first-years graduate.
 
Some of these are unwittingly correct...

[!--QuoteBegin-LooseCannon+Dec 17 2005, 09:43 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(LooseCannon @ Dec 17 2005, 09:43 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]"If it wasn't for pagans we couldn't have neo-pagans."
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Technically, linguistically speaking, this is true. You need an original phenomenon to have a neo-phenomenon.

[!--QuoteBegin-LooseCannon+Dec 17 2005, 09:43 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(LooseCannon @ Dec 17 2005, 09:43 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]"I believe that Mormons might be a sect of Christianity.  But maybe that's just their beliefs."
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Mormons do view themselves as a sect of Christianity, though mainstream Christians (Catholics and the larger Protestant denominations) disagree. Mainstream Christians view Mormons as polytheists because they believe "God the Father" and Jesus are two separate gods. In other words, it is just their [the Mormon's] belief that they might be a sect of Christianity.

[!--QuoteBegin-LooseCannon+Dec 17 2005, 09:43 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(LooseCannon @ Dec 17 2005, 09:43 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]"The Nation of Islam is different from mainstream Islam because it is not very nice to people."
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The Nation of Islam is a racist organization, which makes them not very nice to a lot of people. So that much is true, but there are many more differences between the Nation and real Islam.
 
Yeah, but the blatantly obvious and ridiculously worded still get 0 points when LC marks it.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-SinisterMinisterX+Dec 18 2005, 06:29 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SinisterMinisterX @ Dec 18 2005, 06:29 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Mainstream Christians view Mormons as polytheists because they believe "God the Father" and Jesus are two separate gods.
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Since we are being technical here, technically, Mormonism is not a polytheistic religion if it believes in two deities. "Poly" starts with three.
Therefore, it would be a bitheistic religion. I have never read this word, mainly because I don't know of any case, past or present, where there has been a religion that believes in precisely two gods.
 
That's interesting. I've never heard "poly means three or more" before. I've always heard it just means "more than one". I've seen the prefix applied in situations with two things i.e. "polyrhythmic" music with two (and only two) simultaneous rhythms.

I don't disagree that "bi" would be an appropriate prefix here. I'm just saying that I think "poly" is equally applicable, when considering modern usage of the prefix.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-SinisterMinisterX+Dec 19 2005, 07:23 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SinisterMinisterX @ Dec 19 2005, 07:23 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]That's interesting. I've never heard "poly means three or more" before. I've always heard it just means "more than one". I've seen the prefix applied in situations with two things i.e. "polyrhythmic" music with two (and only two) simultaneous rhythms.

I don't disagree that "bi" would be an appropriate prefix here. I'm just saying that I think "poly" is equally applicable, when considering modern usage of the prefix.
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Poly- (from the Greek 'polus' - much, many) does just mean more than one.
 
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