God all over the world

Metal_made

Trooper
After studying some religions, I saw lots of things that they share, for example and this is the most important they have only one God. (Christianism, Islam, Judaism) and most of them have the same rules like being good to everybody, loving people as you love yourself. Let me explain a little bit deeper what I'm trying to say.

In Christianism the central figure is Jesus, who's the son of God, and at the same time he is God. So we have only one god. When Jesus came to Earth he gave many lessons of love to each other and peace, and He said the you have to love God with all your heart.

In Judaism the central figure is God, and he gave to humanity the ten laws in which He says that you have to love Him, love all the people around you, etc.

In the Islam they have no priests and no sacraments, but in their rules they say that there is only one God, which name's Allah, and He commands the muslims to help each other, by loving them and helping the needy people.

In Hinduism they have more than one god, but they do have a main God, wich is Brahama, and this can be interpreted like one god and the angels who also have powers but they have to obey God. In their beliefs you reincarnate in better beings, if you are good to everybody and if you love your gods.

So the point of this thread was saying that in some way, many religions are the same, but sadly, the followers of each religion are fighting each other, I hope one day all of us see that what we believe is the same thing and that there is no need for wars, or fighting, since we are all brothers.
 
I'm afraid it is not that simple. For one comparing any eastern tradition (hinduism, taoism etc) to "western" traditions like Islam and Christianity is not possible because they come from completely different cultural and geographical backgrounds. Hinduism is MUCH older than western religions and even if it has Brahman as the "head" of its pantheon it is still a polytheistic religion.

Christianity didn't start or end with Christ, many of its ideas are much older and like all movements it has been influenced by others. Socrates, Zoroastrianism, oral tradition all had part in what we call "Christianity". Right now I'm doing a take home final for a sociology class that is due on thursday so I'll leave this unfinished, but I'll definately come back to this and be much more detailed.
 
The comparison of Christianity, Judaism and Islam is a very obvious one, because they are closely related to each other. They are the so-called "Abrahamic" religions and foot on the Old Testament. In general, the three religions have three prophets that distinct them from each other. Moses is the prophet of Judaism (although he is also a prophet of Christianity and Islam); Jesus is the prophet of Christianity and Muhammad the prophet of Islam.

Christianity started out as a sect of Judaism stating that Jesus is the promised Messiah all Jews were waiting for. Those who remained Jews rejected this, and are still waiting for the Messiah. The difficulty of uniting Christianity and Judaism therefore arises from the fact that the Jews do not accept the words of Jesus to be of divine nature, which the Christians (or at least most of them) do. To simplify it, the Jews regard the Ten Commandments and the morals of the Old Testament the laws of God. The Christians add the words of Jesus, found in the New Testament, to these old laws.

Islam is, if you will, an "updated" version of Christianity (which is an "updated" version of Judaism). It must be said that the Muslims believe in the divine nature of Jesus Christ, they accept him as a prophet of God, but they believe the Qur'an to be rules that add up to what the Old and New Testaments say. In general, the relation of Islam to Christianity is the same as that of Christianity to Judaism.

In that sense, Judaism, Christianity and Islam are three branches of the same roots. It must be said that in different stages of their developments, they also took different influences from other religions. For example, Christianity uses several concepts that originated in the Persian Zoroastrian religion (which is only natural, considering that in the time Christianity arose, the areas of worship of the two were very close together, neighbouring, in fact). On the other hand, Zoroastrianism also had elements that resembled Jewish ones. For example, in Zoroastrianism, God does not manifestate himself. In his place, the eternal fire was worshipped. It is argued that the symbol for the highest God (Ahura Mazda) shown on ancient Persian bas-reliefs was in fact not intended to be the God, but in fact the ancestors of the Great King receiving their blessing.
One fundamental influence Zoroastrianism had in the development in Christianity was the sharing of Manichaean ideals. Zoroastrianism believes in the eternal struggle between the good God, Ahura Mazda, and his evil adversary, Angra Maniyu (aka Ahriman), which concludes at the end of all times. This led to the development of Manichaean philosophy in the 3d century. Manichaeism believes in the dualism of good and evil. This basically means that there is "black" and "white", but no grey. Although Persian authorities attempted to stop Mani's words from spreading (mostly for political reasons), they did survive and later became the fundament of many Christian theories (the most famous ones in history being those of the Cathars). Manichaeism has survived until this day. One of the most prominent advocates of Manichaeism (although I personally doubt he knows of that) is a certain megalomanic person believed to be destined to rule the world. You all know this person, his Manichaean views were manifestated by the tragically famous words "Either you are with us, or you are against us".

However, if you believe that Christianity is a unified religion, which worships only one God and his prophet, you are gravely mistaken. Christianity had incredible struggles in finding followers in a world that has been Polytheistic for several millenia. For this reason, concepts such as the saints, which were basically just Gods in replacement, were highly successful. The Germanic tribes would have none of Jesus' divinity and accepted the idea of Arianism, which said that Jesus was not the son of God, nor was he divine, but simply a very godly human. During the time Christianity was banned in the Roman Empire, many mixed religions existed which sort of accepted Jesus, but would not entirely dismiss the "Old Gods", as they were known. Finally, Iulianus Apostata created a form of Paganism that was Christian in almost every resort, except for the fact that the divinities worshipped to were not Jesus and his father, but the Old Gods. In describing the various forms of Christianity, one could go on for ages, so I leave you with this basic impression (just to note that I'm not going to start on the subject of Reformation and the term "church").

As for Hinduism, we have a very difficult case here. This begins with the fact that there is no "Hinduistic" religion. The term "Hinduism" was coined by the British overlords to comprehend all those various cults on the Indian subcontinent that were related to each other and seemed to be similar. A compromise was found in the fact that there is a supreme God, but he can take up to 33 million incarnations. These incarnations include characters such as Jesus or Muhammad, indicating that we are in fact all Hindus.
Fact is, however, that this religion is (or at least was up to British rule) non-existent. All the concepts that make up the British definition of Hinduism were there, but not in that shape. There were and still are many different cults that often resemble each other closely. But just to give you an example, a person worshipping Kali is unlikely to worship Ganesh, and so on (this example is flawed, and there are certainly people who do both, and there may be mix cults. I'm not an expert on Hinduism).
The lack of the missionary element in Hinduism does not mean Hindus and other religions can get along with each other. It is not only the other religions that pick up fight with Hindus, but often enough Hindus themselves. The fact is that "modern" Hinduism is also closely alligned to the Indian nation ("Hindu" is in fact just a name for "India" -although the country is officially called Bharat, meaning "mother"), and other religions, mostly Islam, which made a violent entrance on the subcontinent, are considered an alien element in this nation. 1,100 years after the Muslims entered India, many Hindu nationalists still do not consider Indian Muslims to be real Indians. This was one of the main reasons why a country like Pakistan came into existance.

So, it is not always the spiritual or religious factors that make up the clash of religions. If you look at Islam, it radically conflicts with the other two Abrahamic religions not because they consider Muhammad the prophet, but because Qur'an and Hadith were not written for urbanized societies, but were in fact originally the laws the Arabs lived by. The big problem with religions is that once a divine word is written down, it remains unaltered forever. Can the laws of a merchant city in 7th century Arabia be applied to a modern metropolis? Similarities exist, but the times have simply changed.

It would be wrong to dismiss religions as utter bullshit though. Even if you do not believe in God, you must not deny that Christianity is the basis of the western culture. Our set of morales and ethics derives from Christian values, and our society takes as much from its beliefs, past or present, as it takes from other pieces of history, culture and the likes. The figures of good and evil that derive from the Bible and beyond are still present in our minds. Biblical and religious imagery, as secular as it may have become, is still the most powerful imagery in our civilization. We may dismiss the existence of divinity, but none of us are as un-religious as we want to think. The Islamic world has adopted a different, in their view more advanced, set of morales and rules. This is the reason why our cultures clash so often.

Finally, the problem of religion lies not within the individual, but in the mass as a whole. Any person you talk to will be more intelligent than a mob. This counts for any culture. There are as many beliefs as there are people. But very many people lay back their own beliefs and opinions and adopt a predigested one because it is easier.

Thus we close the Book of Thel.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Perun+Dec 13 2005, 03:25 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Perun @ Dec 13 2005, 03:25 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]In general, the relation of Islam to Christianity is the same as that of Christianity to Judaism.
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Not at all. Christianity was started by Jews; it was not the intention of the first "Christians" to form a new religion, but to reform Judaism. Christianity did not fully separate from Judaism until Paul's view of Jesus became dominant (he did view Xianity as something different from Judaism).

Islam was started independently. Eventually, the early Muslims decided that their religion was of Abrahamic origin and therefore related to Judaism/Xianity. But the origin of the religion (the first revelations from Gabriel to Mohammed) were independent of any previously existing source.
 
I was going to reply, but Perun covered everything I had to say much more eloquently.
(Isn't your grandfather a distinguished scholar on world religions, Per? I thought you mentioned that at some point.)

My own personal view is that all religions do the same thing - they allow people to find meaning in an otherwise meaningless life: You are born, you eat, you sleep, you make a child or two, then you die - a fairly dull existance without something more important than yourself to strive for.

Conviently, most religions, as Metal_made pointed out, have the same basic rules - don't kill other people, don't be a jerk, don'y go overthrowing the government. This is an easy way of instilling respect for lawn and order....
 
[!--QuoteBegin-SinisterMinisterX+Dec 14 2005, 03:45 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SinisterMinisterX @ Dec 14 2005, 03:45 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Not at all. Christianity was started by Jews; it was not the intention of the first "Christians" to form a new religion, but to reform Judaism. Christianity did not fully separate from Judaism until Paul's view of Jesus became dominant (he did view Xianity as something different from Judaism).

Islam was started independently. Eventually, the early Muslims decided that their religion was of Abrahamic origin and therefore related to Judaism/Xianity. But the origin of the religion (the first revelations from Gabriel to Mohammed) were independent of any previously existing source.
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That is correct, but at that point when the Muslims decided their religion to be of Abrahamic origin, the relation was created. Artificially, perhaps, but now it is there.


[!--QuoteBegin-IronDuke+Dec 14 2005, 05:49 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(IronDuke @ Dec 14 2005, 05:49 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I was going to reply, but Perun covered everything I had to say much more eloquently.
(Isn't your grandfather a distinguished scholar on world religions, Per? I thought you mentioned that at some point.)
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He was an expert on Buddhism and Indian art, specialized at the age of the Kushanas. He is now sadly no longer with us.
 
The topic of Religion is always a deep and thought provoking subject that will always create discussion, argument, counter argument and at times conflict.

I was born and raised a Roman Catholic and went to an RC High School where the rules and theologies of the religion were forced onto growing adolescents. As I have grown older and experienced life I have found my ideas changing.

I now do not consider myself to be a religious man and doubt the existence of any supreme being. I look at the biology of life. You are born and you die. Full stop. I look at the world we live in today. I see the tensions between Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland. I see the tensions between Pakistan and India. I see the troubles in Afghanistan and in Iraq. Looking back in the past you can look at the Crusades, you can look at Witch burning in the early USA. It is easy for people to hide behind a religion as a moral cause for violence because it denotes worthiness.

To me religion is a man made concept because we are all essentially frightened of two things: death and the unknown. For some (or most) it is a horrible empty feeling to not know what will happen when we die. What will there be afterwards? Is it such a dreadful thought that whn we die we die. That our time on earth is not a preparation for an afterlife but the real deal? That we need to make every moment count while we are on earth?

Religion has also been used for centuries and longer as a control mechanism. And with control there is the position of power. Yes it ould be argued that the Western culture is based on the fundamental teachings of Chrisitianity. As society evolves, especially in the West, is Religion becoming less important? Isn't it just common sense that you shouldnt kill someone because of the impact that act would have, creating a ripple in pond?

I do not follow the teachings of any religion. I try to make every day count. I do not want to hurt people by the things that I do or say. I try to make a happy home for my children and instill the same values I have in them. Of course they will grow and they will make their own decisions. I have not Christened my children or had them entered into any other religion. If they decide that they want to follow a particular religion when they are older that will be their decision based on their own views and I will respect what they choose.

If on the other hand there is a God and some form of Armagheddon does take place in my lifetime, please forgive me for my cynicism and take me to whatever paradise lies on the other side. [!--emo&:bow:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/bowdown.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'bowdown.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin-thegodthatish+Dec 14 2005, 06:43 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(thegodthatish @ Dec 14 2005, 06:43 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I do not follow the teachings of any religion. I try to make every day count. I do not want to hurt people by the things that I do or say. I try to make a happy home for my children and instill the same values I have in them. Of course they will grow and they will make their own decisions. I have not Christened my children or had them entered into any other religion. If they decide that they want to follow a particular religion when they are older that will be their decision based on their own views and I will respect what they choose.
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What thegodthatish said, it's absolutely interesting because, let's say there is a God (which I believe there is), according to what he is saying, he is a good man, I think the Lord can't send him to hell, or punish him because he is a good man. It might be interesting to ask someone ho is studying teology (Onhell...) what should happen in this cases.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Metal_made+Dec 14 2005, 04:29 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Metal_made @ Dec 14 2005, 04:29 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]What thegodthatish said, it's absolutely interesting because, let's say there is a God (which I believe there is), according to what he is saying, he is a good man, I think the Lord can't send him to hell, or punish him because he is a good man. It might be interesting to ask someone ho is studying teology (Onhell...) what should happen in this cases.
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The holy bible will answer this question for you: Mark 16,16

[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.[/quote]

As you see, if you don't believe then there is no way to salvation no matter how good you behave [!--emo&:)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/smile.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'smile.gif\' /][!--endemo--]



[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]If on the other hand there is a God and some form of Armagheddon does take place in my lifetime, please forgive me for my cynicism and take me to whatever paradise lies on the other side.  [!--emo&:bow:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/bowdown.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'bowdown.gif\' /][!--endemo--]  [/quote]

And that is a really stupid thing to say thegodthatish, unless you are serious. If so, you should say it like you really mean it.
 
Marcus and Mathew both say that you have to believe in God to go to heaven. John is a bit different. He says that you have to believe in the words of Jesus to go to heaven (12:46-50).
 
I know all that Per, but, isn't it unfair?, I mean, if you are a good guy, and you try to help everyone else, you shouldn't be condemned.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Perun+Dec 14 2005, 09:57 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Perun @ Dec 14 2005, 09:57 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Marcus and Mathew both say that you have to believe in God to go to heaven. John is a bit different. He says that you have to believe in the words of Jesus to go to heaven (12:46-50).
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Because to John in the begining was the Word and the Word was God... John 1:1
 
[!--QuoteBegin-thegodthatish+Dec 14 2005, 07:43 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(thegodthatish @ Dec 14 2005, 07:43 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]If on the other hand there is a God and some form of Armagheddon does take place in my lifetime, please forgive me for my cynicism and take me to whatever paradise lies on the other side.  [!--emo&:bow:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/bowdown.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'bowdown.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
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This reminds me of a famous anecdote about Bertrand Russell. Russell, as you may know was a famous British philosopher, anti-war activist and atheist.

He hosted a small dinner party for friends to celebrate his 95 birthday and one of his guests asked him: "Bertie, what will you do if you find out you were wrong about God? What will you do if after you die you meet your maker?" Russell thought about this for a while and then, with a characteristic smirk on his face answered: "I'd say God, you gave us insufficient evidence!"

I agree with much of what thegodthatish said in his post, but I wouldn't conclude with a cheap appeal for pity from God should I be mistaken about his inexistence. That doesn't mean I can't be wrong. Of course I might be. But I've thought about this long and hard and I've made the best judgment I can and I will not apologize for it. If I am wrong, then I think it was God's fault for endowing me with reason and intelligence and then intending me to forgo their use.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-thegodthatish+Dec 14 2005, 07:43 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(thegodthatish @ Dec 14 2005, 07:43 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--] Isn't it just common sense that you shouldnt kill someone because of the impact that act would have, creating a ripple in pond?

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That is a tempting thought, I know. But you might also think that killing the innocent is wrong not because of the bad effects that will be generated, but because this is an innocent human being with a life to live and you have no right to end it even if you could be sure that in this particular case no bad consequences would ensue.

David Hume thought that moral rules are important and should be obeyed because of the benefit they provide for both society and the individual. For example, you shouldn't lie because every lie someone tells is an attack on our social systems of promises and contracts without which we would all be worse off. There might be some truth to that, but does it follow that if I knew for sure that no one would ever find out about my lie and no bad consequences for society (however small) would follow, that I am morally permitted to lie? That seems wrong.
 
macunaima, it sad that you agree with what he says because unlike you, he seems suffers from a slave-mentality using as an excuse the actions of bad apples to lump all religions and religious peoples a crazy nuts believing in some illusion. This is made even clearer with his (IMO moronic) plea to God. You are of the very few that actually sticks to his guns regardless which is what should be done whether you do believe or don't. However you say...
[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]But I've thought about this long and hard and I've made the best judgment I can and I will not apologize for it. If I am wrong, then I think it was God's fault for endowing me with reason and intelligence and then intending me to forgo their use.
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What God are you talking about? if you are talking about the Christian/Judaic/Islamic God I'm afraid you are wrong. He is All-powerful, all-knowing etc etc, and so awesome your puny human intellect can't even begin to comprehend. He doesn't make mistakes, we do. If you are talking about a Deist god or a host of gods then you can't say it is his/hers/their fault.
 
I'm glad to see my post has generated some discussion. Discussions is what makes us who we are for we all have our own opinions and beliefs. However I must take offence that my "plea to God" is moronic. If you take the time to read my post it is clearly evident that I am without faith i.e I do not believe in the existence of God, be it in any guise. I do not believe in Satan, I do not believe in the Angels and the Saints. We are biological creatures, created from a physical act and we lead our all too brief existence on this lonley planet in preparation for our death. That is my belief and I cannot be swayed from it.

My exiting remark about if there was a God please accept my apologies was tounge in cheek and was not a serious comment. There will be no Armagheddon as such. In a few billion years (providing we have not blown ourselves up) our nearest star the Sun will swell in size, swallowing Mercury, Venus, Ourselves and Mars before exploding in a rather spectacular supernova. And what then, all the believers shall rise to Heaven whilst us non-believers are condemned to an eternity of fire and brimstone? Bollocks.

Unless I am proven otherwise I will not believe in the existence of a greater being. However I respect people of Religion for having the strength of faith to believe and I will never criticise someone for those beliefs, be they a Christian, Muslim, Jew etc.

There are only two religions that are founded in fact. They were both founded in England and have a base of worshippers in their millions.

The first religion - Iron Maiden
The second - Manchester United FC

(PS For anyone who still takes everything thing I say literally the last remark is again light hearted. I think it is good to end rather deep and serious discussions with a light hearted remark or two, even if most of the time they go over your head)

You all say your prayers and take your vitamins.

Ta ra
 
Damn it happened again! ok, a little note, I don't take things in this BB too seriously except when they are about religion so I don't take sarcastic comments and jokes to well when it is supposed to be a "serious" discusion. so apologize to all offended. I'm sure it will happen again.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Dec 15 2005, 06:14 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Dec 15 2005, 06:14 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]macunaima, ... you say...

[!--QuoteBegin-macunaima+--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(macunaima)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]
But I've thought about this long and hard and I've made the best judgment I can and I will not apologize for it. If I am wrong, then I think it was God's fault for endowing me with reason and intelligence and then intending me to forgo their use.
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What God are you talking about? if you are talking about the Christian/Judaic/Islamic God I'm afraid you are wrong. He is All-powerful, all-knowing etc etc, and so awesome your puny human intellect can't even begin to comprehend. He doesn't make mistakes, we do.
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Uh, I'm not sure I understand the nature of your criticism. Are you saying that I'm not supposed to think carefully about the matter and come to the best judgment I can? What's the alternative? Am I to take someone's word? Well, even then, I first need to make the best judgment I can that this someone's word is worth taking! If this someone is my local priest, then I'm pretty sure his word is not worth taking. He may be worth *listening to*, but like everything else, I then have to decide whether I should believe what he tells me. If this someone is *GOD*, then I'm afraid before I can take his word about anything I first need to decide whether he exists, and on my best judgment, he doesn't.

It seems you are recommending that we surrender our own power of self-governance, ignore our own best judgments and *just believe*. But not only do I think that's false, I actually think its *nonsense*! I don't think it is possible to not rely on your own best judgment! As I said before, even if I am going to "take God's word for it", I first need to make my own best judgment that his word is worth taking!

So, in short, you cannot avoid discussions about the existence of God and his power by saying that he's so much smarter than we are and we can't possibly comprehend his nature. Even if that is so, we still need to come to our own best judgments on the matter. If God is beyond the powers of my own reasoning, then so much the worse for him.

One last thing, the last sentence of my previous post did not imply that I believe in a God of some sort. I thought that was clear enough, but if it isn't, then let me rephrase:

I don't believe that there is a God which both endowed me with reason and intelligence and intended me to forgo their use.

Clear enough?
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Dec 15 2005, 06:14 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Dec 15 2005, 06:14 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]macunaima, it sad that you agree with what he says because unlike you, he seems suffers from a slave-mentality using as an excuse the actions of bad apples to lump all religions and religious peoples a crazy nuts believing in some illusion.
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I agree that this is a terrible reason to deny the existence of God. By that reasoning, I shouldn't be an atheist either since most of the militant atheists I know are insecure jerks who profess atheism out of spite for their parents or their Catholic school teachers.

I don't think there is a best reason for denying the existence of God. I suppose I have no need for that concept. All the arguments I've come across for the existence of God are insufficient. Some are abysmally bad, some are thought-provoking but ultimately unsuccessful in my opinion. I'd be happy to talk about any such argument in more detail if someone is interested. Onhell, perhaps you could share your reason for believing in God and we can proceed from there; if you're interested that is...
 
[!--QuoteBegin-macunaima+Dec 16 2005, 01:21 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(macunaima @ Dec 16 2005, 01:21 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]
Uh, I'm not sure I understand the nature of your criticism.  Are you saying that I'm not supposed to think carefully about the matter and come to the best judgment I can?  What's the alternative?  Am I to take someone's word?  Well, even then, I first need to make the best judgment I can that this someone's word is worth taking!  If this someone is my local priest, then I'm pretty sure his word is not worth taking.  He may be worth *listening to*, but like everything else, I then have to decide whether I should believe what he tells me.  If this someone is *GOD*, then I'm afraid before I can take his word about anything I first need to decide whether he exists, and on my best judgment, he doesn't.

It seems you are recommending that we surrender our own power of self-governance, ignore our own best judgments and *just believe*.  But not only do I think that's false, I actually think its *nonsense*!  I don't think it is possible to not rely on your own best judgment!  As I said before, even if I am going to "take God's word for it", I first need to make my own best judgment that his word is worth taking!

So, in short, you cannot avoid discussions about the existence of God and his power by saying that he's so much smarter than we are and we can't possibly comprehend his nature.  Even if that is so, we still need to come to our own best judgments on the matter.  If God is beyond the powers of my own reasoning, then so much the worse for him.
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I'm afraid you didn't understand what I said and you are taking up to much space saying a whole lot of nothing... God is not smarter than us.. he is GREATER. You missing my point just proves it... funny hu? I never recommended anything, don't put words in my mouth....
[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]One last thing, the last sentence of my previous post did not imply that I believe in a God of some sort.  I thought that was clear enough, but if it isn't, then let me rephrase:
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I understood you perfectly, I know you don't believe in God or any for that matter, but when you speak of the possible existance of one... which one do you mean? there are so many different types of gods. some are flawed like us and then there are all powerfull all knowing ones that don't make mistakes. IF that is the one you are talking about then saying that he made a mistake by giving you reason is silly since Him being PERFECT automatically means he doesn't make mistakes. Clear enough?

I guess free will means nothing to some people....
 
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