European Politics

It will be interesting to see how the status quo reacts to these elections. Clearly there is unhappiness, there are concerns here that need to be addressed in at least some way ... otherwise the "fringe" parties become less "fringe-y"
 
It's by and large a 'we want out of the EU' and 'stop immigration' vote. Although rural areas also vote for UKIP because they make noise about rural issues, want to repeal on the ban on hunting with dogs etc.
 
Do you think that is it ... or possibly problems with more specific EU policies/a reacting to a generally poor economy, mixed in with some regional issues. Not specifically the UKIP, but the election as a whole and the success (outside of Germany and surprisingly Italy) of right and left parties.
 
I don't know about other countries, but there's always been a fear of loss of sovereignty in the UK, and a dislike of various EU regulations and laws (eg requirement to mark goods in metric as well as imperial, tighter regulations in various business operations, health and safety etc). Opposition has become more widespread in the past ten years because of an influx of migrant workers from within the EU, and increased immigration, which isn't entirely to do with the EU, of course.

Since the recession(s) and economic downturn, there has been a lot of criticism of the amount of public money being paid into the EU, coupled with criticism of international foreign aid payments, as well as criticism of welfare spending. I'm not sure how many voters actually know about EU economic policies, although some of the better-researched Eurosceptics do criticise things like the Greek bailout.

Some Eurosceptics do know the system well and have considered reasons for wanting to pull out of the EU, but an awful lot tick that box because UKIP is the only party, other than the more obviously fascist ones, to stand for both pulling out of the EU and slamming the door shut on immigration. The three mainstream parties either don't want to change anything in that respect or don't commit either way.
 
You don't hear a lot of active rooting for the EU half as much as people just accepting the status quo and commenting on various benefits of EU membership which affect them. Naturally, if someone criticises something strongly, they're going to be asked for their reasons! ;)
 
I get that ... but it seems worth questioning support for status quo as well, otherwise we'd still be under the Divine Rights of Kings
 
At least you don't have a BNP MEP anymore Brig. :)

UKIP won a seat in Scotland, which is bizarre in the extreme. I'm pretty chuffed with it though as it stopped the SNP from getting a third seat out of six. Alex Salmond said he wanted to squeeze UKIP out of Scottish politics but I suspect he was more interested in keeping any pro-UK/anti-EU feelings in Scotland quiet. The turnout was only about one-third though so only about 3% of Scotland's electorate voted for UKIP. The electorate for the referendum will be larger though as 16/17 year olds are included. However more than 70% of the votes cast on Thursday weren't for the SNP which offers a glimmer of hope.
 
Of course, questioning and maybe renegotiating certain areas sounds very sensible, or participating and bringing about change. I can't help feeling a lot of UKIP supporters just want out no questions asked, however. Our last regional UKIP MEP could have participated in debates and highlighted problems with the EU as it stands, raising specific concerns. Instead he just used his chance to speak as a chance to attack and insult people.

And you make one hell of a point, Wiz, I found BNP representation far more disturbing!
 
I am not saying any of these left or right parties do not want out of the EU .. but if anything, they have stirred that conversation. From what I recall, one of the benefits of the EU was supposed to be economic growth and prosperity. That clearly has not been happening and while the EU itself is certainly not to blame for all of that, I suspect people thought it would help prevent big downturns like we have seen.

If the UK/EU is anything like the US, pretty much now is the time to have that conversation before everyone kicks back into campaign mode before whenever the next election is.
 
Brigantium said:
Of course, questioning and maybe renegotiating certain areas sounds very sensible, or participating and bringing about change. I can't help feeling a lot of UKIP supporters just want out no questions asked, however. Our last regional UKIP MEP could have participated in debates and highlighted problems with the EU as it stands, raising specific concerns. Instead he just used his chance to speak as a chance to attack and insult people.

And you make one hell of a point, Wiz, I found BNP representation far more disturbing!
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The odd thing is, if we exit Europe they'll all (the UKIP MEPs) be out of a job, will they not?
bearfan said:
I am not saying any of these left or right parties do not want out of the EU .. but if anything, they have stirred that conversation. From what I recall, one of the benefits of the EU was supposed to be economic growth and prosperity. That clearly has not been happening and while the EU itself is certainly not to blame for all of that, I suspect people thought it would help prevent big downturns like we have seen.

If the UK/EU is anything like the US, pretty much now is the time to have that conversation before everyone kicks back into campaign mode before whenever the next election is.
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I don't think things would have been any better had we not been in the EU though, in respect to the crash. A quick look across the pond would show that.
Black Wizard said:
At least you don't have a BNP MEP anymore Brig. :)

UKIP won a seat in Scotland, which is bizarre in the extreme. I'm pretty chuffed with it though as it stopped the SNP from getting a third seat out of six. Alex Salmond said he wanted to squeeze UKIP out of Scottish politics but I suspect he was more interested in keeping any pro-UK/anti-EU feelings in Scotland quiet. The turnout was only about one-third though so only about 3% of Scotland's electorate voted for UKIP. The electorate for the referendum will be larger though as 16/17 year olds are included. However more than 70% of the votes cast on Thursday weren't for the SNP which offers a glimmer of hope.
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Something, just something, tells me the boy is going to vote "No" in September...:p
 
CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
The odd thing is, if we exit Europe they'll all (the UKIP MEPs) be out of a job, will they not?
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They won't care, the statement is more important to them than the job. The last one for this area (the one eventually booted out of UKIP) didn't claim his money and never claimed expenses. Mind you, I don't think he actually went to the European Parliament much, either, he was kicked out for a while.
 
Black Wizard said:
What makes you think that? :eek:
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I'm not entirely clear if you're humouring me here, Wiz. Maybe I've misinterpreted your, to me clear, dislike (if that's not too strong a word) for the SNP:
Black Wizard said:
I'm pretty chuffed with it though as it stopped the SNP from getting a third seat out of six.
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Is there any particular reason this would be a bad thing? I mean, you're basically saying you'd take a UKIP MEP (& therefore people in Scotland actually having voted for this mob) over three SNP seats. Even if you dislike the SNP, I'd have thought you'd prefer them to get votes/seats over UKIP. Yes/no?
Black Wizard said:
However more than 70% of the votes cast on Thursday weren't for the SNP which offers a glimmer of hope.
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A glimmer of hope of what? I thought you were alluding to a "No" vote?

So what do you think in regard to the SNP & independence?
 
I know I have no vote in the referendum (I'm not Scottish), but I'm still undecided on which side to support.

On one hand, I like Scotland, and it would be great for them to be independent from the rest of the UK. On the other hand, I like Scotland, and the last thing I want to see is them to fall into bankruptcy and crawl back to us defeated. The truth is, Scotland seem to have funds that will only support them in the short-term as opposed to the long-term. If they can successfully maintain themselves, great, but is it really worth the risk? Leaving the UK really isn't worth the billions of pounds worth of Scottish money that will be spent in their transitional period after attaining independence.

By the sounds of things, I'll probably back No. A good enough Yes argument could sway me however.

It's also saddening to see how many people in Wales feel that independence is the answer here. If Scotland is a questionable cause, Wales is an outright no.
 
I don't necessarily think it would be "great", but I don't really follow the (& your) analysis that implies it's inevitable, or at even likely (possible, or course; anything's possible), that Scotland would really struggle financially if it were independent. The reality is, independence might well turn out to be be pretty fiscally neutral in effect long-term. The swaying argument, I'd guess for most, is going to be whether you really want the parliament in Edinburgh to decide/control everything that happens in your country (which it doesn't do at present); or whether you want to be part of a union where control & power is exercised from an increasingly (viewed) remote Westminster. It's unfortunate, for those seeking to preserve the Union, that Westminster is viewed with such disinterest, apathy, distrust, etc, up in Scotland at present; as this, I think (as I'm sure many others do), strengthens the separatists movement. On form, and even most pro-Union supports probably think/concede this, the Scottish Parliament has been a success. This isn't a reason for separation, but it really puts to bed the idea that we couldn't survive &/or manage our own affairs/resources. And I see no evidence the UK parliament as it stands is any better at this. Most Scots probably believe the opposite to be the case at present.
 
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