European Politics

Brigantium

General of the Dark Army
Staff member
I (and a great many others) can't help feeling that the Russian leadership and military's intentions don't align with the beliefs and identities of those depicted as pro-Russian in other former Soviet states.
 
D

Deleted member 7164

Guest
That may be so, but it was also not in Russia's jurisdiction, and one thing that bothered me the most back then was how people who kept criticising the US for being an imperialist power started defending Russia for their intervention in Georgia

I just want to point out that there's a difference between projecting power 3 continents away due to resources or geopolitics, and projecting power in a neighbouring state where your minority is under some sort of threat.

Russian peoples (plural) were also victims of Soviet, Stalinist forceful relocations and border redraws. Modern Russia has obligations towards them, regardless of what country they were moved to.

It's all part of the same shitshow.
 

Randalf

Ancient Mariner
I just want to point out that there's a difference between projecting power 3 continents away due to resources or geopolitics, and projecting power in a neighbouring state where your minority is under some sort of threat.

True. And overall, I think you've brought in some very good observations and insights to this matter (/Russia's actions). You're absolutely right that it's not only about Russia just randomly deciding to act on Ukraine's territory and putting pressure to them (and others).

However, straight out propaganda, lies, threats - not only to Ukraine but to other countries as well, quite extreme hypocrisy, egoistic super power whatever bullshit and more or less made-up "justifications" for war preparations just don't and most definitely should not do.

Putin is a dictator who tries to silence and even kill his opposition. He's also supporting fellow dictator Lukashenko and using Belarus territory to add-up the threat towards Ukraine and it's capital. Russia threatens other countries and their sovereignty while no-one threatens them. None of the European countries is, or has been, even close to initiating an armed conflict here. Even if all of their neighbors joined NATO like right now, I bet there would be quite a non-existing change that they'd act aggressively towards Russia. It's just absurd that Puting - allegedly - feels threatened by Ukraine or Nordic Countries, for example. It's just making excuses and justifications for all that super_power_bullshit.

It's never black & white - of course - and there's some complicated history with Russia & former Soviet nations, but feeding those flames of conflict and playing wargames has pretty much zero justification. It's bad.

I'm not blaming Russian people or wanting to make the confrontation too simple. But there's no denying that Putin/Russia operates on a very, very questionable level in so many ways. International politics is one thing, but Putin's dictatorship within Russia alone has reached quite terrible levels. No free media, horrible situation with the rights of certain minorities and all. So fucking sad that instead of trying to get along, relying on diplomacy and dialogue and focusing on stuff like... I don't know, environment & climate or whatever, there's an actual, even growing risk of a war in Europe right now. And a lot of that is because Putin/Russia is playing their own power games.


Overly simplifying memes and jokes probably don't help here, but...


20220125_175100.png
 
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Azas

It Was a Dark and Stormy Night
Russia's government poisoned people in UK. They poisoned Navalny. Russia uses bully tactics: first they attack sovereign country, then they tell "we need to negotiate." They create the problem themselves, and then imitate problem solving. I live in a Baltic State, Lithuania, so everyone who tells that Russia is somewhat OK, in my eyes, and in the eyes of many citizens of Baltics - Poland included - Ukraine and Georgia; simply are not well informed. They fall for Russia's propaganda, and last but not least, they are simply just plain stupid. Russia as of today is pure Evil. It's government can't better life of their people. Country has many resources, but none if any leading technologies. Putin has nostalgia for USSR glory days, and wants to reinstate USSR in one or other form. They escalate "war" paradigm, because have nothing to offer for Russia's people in exchange. Russia's people per se are not evil, they are friendly but on the political level many of them are just neanderthals or have fear almost on genetic level (they remember terror of Stalin days) Many of them longing Russia's Imperial glory. They don't go to demonstrations against it's government in big, critical quantities. They are happy about Putin's act on Crimea. They simply close their eyes when government prosecutes free media and on and on and on.
Russia is a decaying Empire. On a historical level, it's collapse will be swift. But for us who live near Russia border NOW, it's carcass convulsions are dangerous and painful.
So, if deep down you have symphaty for Russia, please shut up (sorry) and enjoy democracy you live in.
Sorry for my English.
 
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D

Deleted member 7164

Guest
True. And overall, I think you've brought in some very good observations and insights to this matter (/Russia's actions). You're absolutely right that it's not only about Russia just randomly deciding to act on Ukraine's territory and putting pressure to them (and others).

However, straight out propaganda, lies, threats - not only to Ukraine but to other countries as well, quite extreme hypocrisy, egoistic super power whatever bullshit and more or less made-up "justifications" for war preparations just don't and most definitely should not do.

Putin is a dictator who tries to silence and even kill his opposition. He's also supporting fellow dictator Lukashenko and using Belarus territory to add-up the threat towards Ukraine and it's capital. Russia threatens other countries and their sovereignty while no-one threatens them. None of the European countries is, or has been, even close to initiating an armed conflict here.

We are either discussing Russia's internals or externals.
I don't want to mix both. Why? Because countries have rights regardless of the shit system they operate.

To claim otherwise is to say that USA has right to spread "democracy" around the world on the grounds of their super-duper system where everyone lives in houses made of candy, which we know it's not only bollocks but it's not even statistically true - USA is behind some other NA countries and a lot of EU when it comes to that. USA takes the right to do this stuff, because of their geostrategic position.

Everyone should also drop the notion that some random country enjoys same privileges that superpowers and regional powers do.

You may think that EU is some sort of a peers' haven but we all know who is big and who is small. Who dictates economic direction and who needs to follow.

So yeah, affairs between Ukraine and Russia and Georgia and Russia are akin to affair between Mexico and USA or Croatia and Germany.
Claiming that the lesser is free to choose its geopolitical alliance is a dangerous lie. Its natural alliance is chosen on the basis of geograhical position and the state of the powers around it in a particular time in history.

---

For the internals, well, I don't have anything good to say there, but I don't want to go on a lament, the post is long as is. I've recently watched a DW documentary and what shocked me is the rift between the young and the old, deeply rooted in politics and the way the country is being run. A family can't come to terms about very important stances in life. The parents are conservative, the children are liberal, they're eating at the same table and they're a loving caring family, but politics? There's not a word of agreement there. For me it felt like a stab to the heart. If country is doing that to the founding block of it, the family, it's failing hard. (And I really don't believe that DW pulled out a biased sample here)


P.S. just to address the "war preparations" part. Russia and Belarus are doing war exercise as a response to the war exercise done by NATO in Poland. This is normal behaviour in this dynamic that hasn't ceased even in mid 2000s when USA and Russia relations were warm. Maneuvers are always the response to maneuvers. It's normal, and a sign that the powers are just shouting against eachother because if you were planning a strike you wouldn't display your routine before it. It's showing the enemy that new technology has been operationaly developed and included in the tactics. If Russia strikes the back assets are going to strike not the border troops. There will be no boots on the ground but total dominance of the airspace and strategic airdrops.
 
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D

Deleted member 7164

Guest

Here's my opinion why that's pretty much a child's outlook on the things; UK has been fucking joint European diplomatic policy on the East, that has been led by Germany. They first used their one-foot-out-of-the-EU status and now they're not even members so they don't have to use anything, to push political agenda in countries such as Ukraine, agenda not aligned to EU but to them and USA.

How the fuck can EU stand together when it's UK signing some memorandums of defense with Poland? Why the fuck does Poland settle with an outsider then? Where's the unity in that?

Divide et impera obviously going from both sides. Russians doing it to eastern countries and UK doing it to the rest. We are in the middle now. We need to take this situation seriously. Think about most prosperous and income-adjusted economy of hundreds of millions of people of dozens of nations being used as a buffer. Cause that's what they're doing to us. The question should not be whether Ukraine needs to be accepted in NATO. No it doesn't, because NATO is a fundamentally anti-Russian alliance. Ukraine should be on the path to EU with a joint EU Army implemented throughout the members. EU countries that claim otherwise are shooting themselves in the foot.
 

Azas

It Was a Dark and Stormy Night
Zare, you are wrong on so many levels...
"Because countries have rights regardless of the shit system they operate."
What would You say, if Russia decides to attack and annex your country? I bet, You would be very happy. Sarcasm. And, Yes USA has rights and even duty to spread democracy, because there's no better political system as of yet.
Man, You're so dumb. Sorry, but it's true.
And nazi's Germany also has had it's rights and needs? According to your logic they acted logical and legitimate.
 

Azas

It Was a Dark and Stormy Night
I don't want to argue and insult, but Russia topic is painful and ongoing. Sorry. And one more thing... Zare, Your avatar is clearly pro Russian, pro USSR and that's a bad thing. My country was under Soviet Union for 46 years. Yet we are not russians. We are Balts: lithuanians, latvians and estonians. So "buddy", let's agree to disagree on this topic.

About Mordor. Novadays, there's enough meme's that Russia is Mordor. So, You know who is Sauron.
 

Yax

Ancient Mariner
Some things are black and white. This is one of those things. The UK comparison is laughable at best, because in no fucking way is that remotely comparable to what the actively aggressive party is doing. Russia is violating sovereign nations. We are not trapped between two aggressors but we are close to the one. And the EU isn't ready for an army. That is fantasy talk. The EU is barely keeping together with all the internal squabbling. NATO on the other hand works.
 
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gazda

Ancient Mariner
And, Yes USA has rights and even duty to spread democracy, because there's no better political system as of yet.
I can understand that for Baltic states USA is best friend against Russia and you are totally proAmerican.

But talking how USA how right to spread democracy is totally wrong.

They are acting like world policeman but only against some countries like Russia or Iran. While their buddies from S.Arabia starving to death Yemen, while "anti"American Venezuela starves their own people (been there, saw that).

And what about China, the biggest bullies in the world. Building island hunders of miles from their land. Bully Philippines people, taking animals and food from long distance Philippines Island.

I saw at my own eyes at sea, how Chinese warship entered Vietnamese waters and Vietnam coast guard is calling on VHF radio. I was listening to them. Chinese warship refuse to turned back as they claimed that Vietnamese waters are part of South China Sea, and they proceed to Vietnam coast. Poor Vietnamese patrol boat didnt do nothing, they just kept quite.

Where is our world policeman in those countries?
 

Azas

It Was a Dark and Stormy Night
Man, we all live in a REAL world. And reality of our world is such: If there's NO POLICEMAN, his place will be taken by Mobs. Period.
Yes, there will be big problems with China. If Putin is Sauron, China's leader is Morgoth (even more powerful)
 

jazz from hell

Ancient Mariner
The way I understand it:

Russia is in a crisis, population and economy are in decrease, they had 1 mio deaths of Covid, Putin knows he has a few years left of delivering gas and oil, and now he's miscalculated. US sends more war material to Ukraine, NATO has grown together, Sweden and Finland are even thinking about joining NATO, and the Eastern European countries are even more against Putin and his imperialism.
 

gazda

Ancient Mariner
Man, we all live in a REAL world. And reality of our world is such: If there's NO POLICEMAN, his place will be taken by Mobs. Period.
Yes, there will be big problems with China. If Putin is Sauron, China's leader is Morgoth (even more powerful)
China is already more powerful than Russia and EU but the biggest problem is that EU is totally dependet on China export of goods.

And Chinese are taking over Europe with their crazy speed of building huge projects. Not just Europe, they are biggest investments in Africa.
 

Randalf

Ancient Mariner
If this is all, or even partly true, I think this very well underlines how Putin and co. lives in a completely different world with a very different state of mind than most.


As mentioned: no-one - absolutely no-one - in Europe threatens Russia. Russia threatens Europe. European countries do not seek to invade and annex areas from other, sovereign nations. Russia does, even if not directly. Russia is constantly meddling with other countries' affairs and who knows, maybe there will be more hybrid operations targeted to their neighbors if the situation escalates further.

Even here in Finland, it's Russian pro-Putin organizations that are supporting some (pathetic, but dangerous nonetheless) groups and feeding dispute and strife. And of course the "web-brigades" are another thing...

Oh well, most of this has been talked here already. But this is just very frustrating. Too bad humankind hasn't learned that much from the past wars. Hopefully the next generation will - finally - be wiser. :)
 
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