European Politics

CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
Pretty influential. The majority of the business community was against independence during campaigning; not too dissimilar to the stance business took during the Brexit campaign. To be fair, anyone with their economic hat on was against independence.
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This is, I think a major argument against Scottish independence, even post-Brexit. I sympathise with the Scottish desire to stay in the EU, but I read today that 64% of all Scottish exports in 2014 went to the rest of the UK, and I already assumed that the labour market in Scotland wouldn't be carried by Scottish and EU companies alone. Under these circumstances, Scotland leaving the joint market with the UK would be disastrous for the country. I understand that this has high potential to cause further resentment of Scots for the English, since they would be keeping Scotland out of the EU, but realistically speaking, under the miserable circumstances that exist, Scotland staying in the UK would be better for the country.
 
Nobody is suggesting that the UK and Scotland wouldn't have a common market though. If Ireland maintains it's special relationship with the UK post-Brexit then the logical argument will be why can't Scotland?
 
CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
Nobody is suggesting that the UK and Scotland wouldn't have a common market though. If Ireland maintains it's special relationship with the UK post-Brexit then the logical argument will be why can't Scotland?
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That could get tricky in this scenario ... UK ends up with whatever trade deal it gets with the EU .. UK is not in the EU, Scotland is ... pending some exception would the trade market .. and really everything else .. not fall under whatever is negotiated out of Brexit
 
CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
Nobody is suggesting that the UK and Scotland wouldn't have a common market though. If Ireland maintains it's special relationship with the UK post-Brexit then the logical argument will be why can't Scotland?
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What leverage does Scotland have on the UK? If the EU is planning to go hard on the UK for leaving, why shouldn't the UK go hard on Scotland for leaving? From what I can see, the dependency of Scotland on the UK is one-sided.
 
bearfan said:
That could get tricky in this scenario ... UK ends up with whatever trade deal it gets with the EU .. UK is not in the EU, Scotland is ... pending some exception would the trade market .. and really everything else .. not fall under whatever is negotiated out of Brexit
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This will already be the situation with Ireland. Nobody is talking about putting up barriers. Nobody is talking about binning the common travel area. Nobody is talking about Irish nationals in the same sentence as EU nationals. If all this can happen with Ireland, which it will; then why could this not happen with Scotland?
 
Because Ireland didn't leave the UK recently and piss off Mrs May and British voters.
 
Perun said:
What leverage does Scotland have on the UK? If the EU is planning to go hard on the UK for leaving, why shouldn't the UK go hard on Scotland for leaving? From what I can see, the dependency of Scotland on the UK is one-sided.
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From the outside .. it seems none beyond a common recent history and nostalgia. Really oil and fishing in the North Sea seems like their best assets.
 
CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
This will already be the situation with Ireland. Nobody is talking about putting up barriers. Nobody is talking about binning the common travel area. Nobody is talking about Irish nationals in the same sentence as EU nationals. If all this can happen with Ireland, which it will; then why could this not happen with Scotland?
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It certainly could and probably should happen ... but it is uncertain.

Ideally cooler heads will prevail and Scotland will remain where it is.
 
Also, the situation in Ireland is, in my opinion not comparable, because the open borders between the UK and Ireland are one of the pillars of the Good Friday Agreement, and a guarantee for peace in Northern Ireland. This kind of situation does not exist with Scotland.
 
Perun said:
Also, the situation in Ireland is, in my opinion not comparable, because the open borders between the UK and Ireland are one of the pillars of the Good Friday Agreement, and a guarantee for peace in Northern Ireland. This kind of situation does not exist with Scotland.
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Which really all goes back to that it would be unwise to make any decision on Scotland is unwise until after Brexit is negotiated and until it shakes out a bit
 
Perun said:
What leverage does Scotland have on the UK? If the EU is planning to go hard on the UK for leaving, why shouldn't the UK go hard on Scotland for leaving? From what I can see, the dependency of Scotland on the UK is one-sided.
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I don't genuinely think a constitutional crisis is something the UK government wants. Scotland leaving would create instability for the UK too. I've no idea if they'd "go hard" or if all of this is just political positioning and posturing.
Perun said:
Because Ireland didn't leave the UK recently and piss off Mrs May and British voters.
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I don't think that goes anywhere near to explaining the relationship of the UK and Ireland.
Perun said:
Also, the situation in Ireland is, in my opinion not comparable, because the open borders between the UK and Ireland are one of the pillars of the Good Friday Agreement, and a guarantee for peace in Northern Ireland. This kind of situation does not exist with Scotland.
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And what do you think is going to happen when the UK exits the EU? People are genuinely worried about this. Right now there is no sitting government in NI; rule from Westminster is back on the cards. What happens if a Border Vote is called? Yes, all of this will probably not happen. But I don't think it would be in the best interests of the UK for anything comparable to be allowed to happen with the border with Scotland, independence or no independence.
 
Forostar said:
And you are doing a great job yourself.
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At least I say what I think you mean, giving you the chance to correct me if I have misread you.

I actually agree with you on many of your points. I think the Leave campaign consciously played on classic nationalist ideas - fear, nostalgia and anger. That doesn't mean the majority of Leave voters consists of narrow-minded nationalists. There are other, genuine motives; e.g. more competition for jobs that don't require .education. This is an undeniable consequence of globalisation. Depending on priorities, one may find other factors more important, and end up in favor of globalisation anyway, but it isn't black and white.

In short; there are other reasons for voting leave than Farage's fear-mongering.
 
And just out of curiosity @Forostar -how come you are so strongly in favor of the EU and yet so strongly in favor of Scottish independence?

I am a curious man, not one who seeks to put the people I discuss with in boxes. It would be easy to say that you're leaning left and @bearfan is leaning right and that's it, but that's the least interesting part of politics to me.

I look forward to discussing stuff like this over a beer in May :cheers:
 
EU: I am for partnership and not for wanting to take the good without sharing the bad.

Scotland: I think they do deserve more own independence. They were independent once, they were dominated once. Things have calmed down, but meanwhile certain matters do not sit right between rule from London (England) and Scotland. I think I touched upon some problems years ago, and I admit I forgot most of it but Cried and/or other UK natives can explain the political complicatioms best.

Leaving the EU is the drop that overflows the bucket as we say here. We need a strong Europe preferably with the UK to work together and stand together vs other mighty nations with unpredictable leaders and unhealthy policies. And stand together to try and solve European problems. Scotland seems as a more open (minded) nation towards foreign(ers) and Europe. I feel they have the right to stay in optimal terms with us. As have the rest of the UK, but it's not exactly looking good when they leave. May's speech came across so nationalist, and she has already put a strong trump card on the table. Cooperation with the EU security will depend on trade deals. Like a threat. If we don't get what we like, we will not help you with intelligence/protection. This is the kind of attitude I do not admire. Bunch of profiteers. I do not wish Scotland the same fate or the same image, if they are willing to stay in the EU. We will see what they find more important.
 
Meanwhile some immigration/study news from the lowlands.

On this moment around 112.000 foreign students study in the Netherlands. 8500 more than last year and more than ever before.

Most of them are from Germany. Second is China, third Italy. According to Nuffic (Dutch organisation for internationalisation in education; an independent, non-profit organisation), the Netherlands are popular because of the big amount of studies that can be done in the English language. The education is affordable and of high quality. It's estimated that 38 percent will stay here after study.
 
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I heard that numerous EU laws/reforms have been stopped or slowed down by UK, so their bailout might result in those being applied (or fully applied). Can Britons point out what's that all about?
Also Foro, what are the average costs there, per semester?
 
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