European Politics
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The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
There's a reason I made the distinction between burqa and hijab.
Banning burqas won't bring in anything positive on the fight against radical Islam, that much is true. If that's the goal in mind, well, it's fucking stupid. However, I don't think it would alienate the moderate Muslims either. Burqas are exclusively a radical Islamism thing. Women who wear burqas are alienated within Muslim people to a considerable extent. My grandmother, who is a conservative Muslim and wears a hijab, absolutely hates women in burqas.
This is a very legitimate debate. I don't think respecting downright evil in the name of "culture" is the right thing to do. I would definitely have hopes for a woman wearing hijab to be integrated into Western society. But not at all for a woman wearing burqa. That's a pipedream.
Banning burqas won't bring in anything positive on the fight against radical Islam, that much is true. If that's the goal in mind, well, it's fucking stupid. However, I don't think it would alienate the moderate Muslims either. Burqas are exclusively a radical Islamism thing. Women who wear burqas are alienated within Muslim people to a considerable extent. My grandmother, who is a conservative Muslim and wears a hijab, absolutely hates women in burqas.
This is a very legitimate debate. I don't think respecting downright evil in the name of "culture" is the right thing to do. I would definitely have hopes for a woman wearing hijab to be integrated into Western society. But not at all for a woman wearing burqa. That's a pipedream.
Maybe not that woman in the burqa. But what about her daughters?
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
Unless the daughters break free of their house and lose most contact with them, chances for them aren't terribly great either.
I know radical Islamist families. It's an absolutely toxic environment to be in. They force their daughters to wear hijabs at ages like 7-8, and burqas once they hit puberty.
It depends which part of western society they're part of too. It is certainly a lot easier for someone to get away from their families in, say, Canada/the USA than it is in Turkey, as they age.
Yes, pretty much. I can't ever imagine banning a piece of clothing. But my country has a more North American (read: American) style of freedom compared to countries in Europe, though we aren't quite as wild west as they are in the US when it comes to freedom.
There's a lot of exceptions in Europe that would never fly here, like prohibitions on Nazi paraphernalia or speeches.
There's a lot of exceptions in Europe that would never fly here, like prohibitions on Nazi paraphernalia or speeches.
D
Deleted member 7164
Guest
There are numerous laws over behavior in public. I think you can't wear something that fully conceals your face, in France. In my city, since few months ago, you can't go topless around. It was normal for us, it's a peninsula on Adriatic so getting home from beach with t-shirt thrown over your shoulder was completely normal until hordes of foreign idiots started walking nude around because they want to show off their GMO chicken muscles and metrosexually shaved torsos.
It's not unheard of; something ordinary, screwed for everyone else by a marginal group of people. Just think of post 9/11 airport security.
It's not unheard of; something ordinary, screwed for everyone else by a marginal group of people. Just think of post 9/11 airport security.
No, not really. Airports have never had an expectation of privacy or personal choice in some way. In my country, we are going the other way on clothing - nudity laws have been struck down here, especially over women's breasts, making it legal for women to be topless in public. Which never really happens much, but I guess it could now.
Nude as in, completely naked? Because that seems like the problem is they need to wear shorts, not shirts...
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
Not at all, I already said that not only did I think a ban on burqas wouldn't make any difference for the good, but also that it'd eliminate a dead giveaway you could use while tracking radical Islamists.
Who said it was just about that?
The chief problem I see right now is that there is no consensus on what the purpose of a burqa ban actually is. Is it supposed to protect us from the influence of Islamism? Is it supposed to liberate oppressed women? Is it supposed to make concealing weapons harder? All of the above?
I'm not strictly speaking against such a ban, but I think that some hard questions need to be answered before it comes into effect. Like, do we really believe that banning such concealing garments is going to push female emancipation in a highly traditionalist milieu? Is this the more likely outcome to alienating members of these particular traditions and having women who previously wore burqas just not leave the house anymore? Do we want to set it as a paradigm for our society that a woman is not entirely free to choose her garment for religious or traditionalist reasons? And are we going to make it a policy to tell people from certain regions in the world that they are not going to be accepted in a country like Germany if they want to maintain a veiling tradition?
I'm not saying all the answers to these questions must be no. But I think if such a law is going to be passed, we owe it to ourselves and the people who are going to be affected by it (i.e. the women in burqas, who to my knowledge are not participating in this discussion) to honestly debate and answer these questions. If the German society can present valid reasons for a ban that outweigh those that oppose it, then I'm fine with it.
I'm not strictly speaking against such a ban, but I think that some hard questions need to be answered before it comes into effect. Like, do we really believe that banning such concealing garments is going to push female emancipation in a highly traditionalist milieu? Is this the more likely outcome to alienating members of these particular traditions and having women who previously wore burqas just not leave the house anymore? Do we want to set it as a paradigm for our society that a woman is not entirely free to choose her garment for religious or traditionalist reasons? And are we going to make it a policy to tell people from certain regions in the world that they are not going to be accepted in a country like Germany if they want to maintain a veiling tradition?
I'm not saying all the answers to these questions must be no. But I think if such a law is going to be passed, we owe it to ourselves and the people who are going to be affected by it (i.e. the women in burqas, who to my knowledge are not participating in this discussion) to honestly debate and answer these questions. If the German society can present valid reasons for a ban that outweigh those that oppose it, then I'm fine with it.
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
I'm pretty sure the purpose of the ban is to say "That shit ain't gonna fly around here". Would this change anything for the good? Probably not. This is probably what would happen:
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That should be a policy. Though I understand it's very difficult to draw the line where a tradition is acceptable enough.
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That should be a policy. Though I understand it's very difficult to draw the line where a tradition is acceptable enough.
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
This is what I said:
There's nothing on here that suggests this is the only side of a debate. That's what makes it a debate, you know.
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That's it, really. There are plenty of calls in various countries for it to be outlawed, but inconsistent reasoning behind it overall, which makes it look like little more than being seen to take a tough political stance against Muslim extremism or an attempt to force total cultural assimilation. It's such a contradiction in aims to liberate Muslim women by telling them they can't do something.
Albie
Keeping an open eye on the Weeping Angels.
This is why I don't like banning things. It really is not the business of the state or me or you or anyone to tell someone else what they should and should not wear. It's down to the individual to choose this. If they feel compelled to wear such garments, that's a different issue that cannot be resolved by a ban.
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
I don't know what you're looking for. You said you gathered that I was "pro-Burqa prohibition" from that post, which was not true. Are you expecting me to defend a point that I didn't make?
D
Deleted member 7164
Guest
LC, not completely nude, topless in shorts.
But anyways, this cloth ban thing is just a statement, saying that you won't be granted liberties if you intent to use them for undermining the very system that gave them to you.
Personally I do not know what to think of it, yet.
But anyways, this cloth ban thing is just a statement, saying that you won't be granted liberties if you intent to use them for undermining the very system that gave them to you.
Personally I do not know what to think of it, yet.
bearfan
Ancient Mariner
I do not think the ban really does much for Muslim women .. this might be an over simplification .. but if the goal of making women wear those things (or if women want to wear them) is to keep their modesty in tact in public, I would think some would react by not letting women go in public at all. I am not sure staying in the house is any better than walking around with one of those stupid things ... yes, I think they are stupid.
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
Burqas are the result of a sickly, evil mindset. But that doesn't mean they should be prohibited, because it's not going to do anything for the good in the fight against radical Islam. That's what I said. That's what I've been saying from the get go. I never said burqas should be banned, but for some reason you keep going on about how what I said sounds like pro-prohibition to you. That's not the position I hold, you came to that conclusion yourself.
I'm looking at it from a pragmatic angle in the fight against radical Islam. Radical Islam should be eradicated, and with that burqas will be eradicated as well. But just banning burqas alone won't help this cause. Clear enough?
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JudasMyGuide
Ancient Mariner
@The Flash , burqas are forbidden/discouraged in Turkey, right? (As a religious symbol - I was under the assumption the country's really trying to be as secular as possible, or am I mistaken?)