European Politics

jazz from hell said:
- What I miss in this whole discussion is a general agreement that most women who wear a burqa don't wear it because they want to, but because they have to (Why am I the one who has to say that...?#&?). You can't justify the violation of human rights with respect towards a religious or cultural tradition.
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I think that's wrong. I don't believe all women (or even the majority of women) who wear a burqa, or a niqab, do it because they are forced (by their husband/father/authorities). I think most of them wear it because it is expected of the entire sub-culture they are part of. Of course, conservative men in that culture are strong defenders of the tradition, but so are many women. Remember, in cultures where women generally aren't expected to work, they are the ones who raise the children, tell them what is good behaviour, tell them what society expects from them. It's not just a man vs woman issue (few things are). Women can also be judgemental towards other women.

As for the issue of banning types of clothing: The debate exists here in Norway as well. I don't support a ban, for three reasons:
  • In general, banning particular types of clothing in public does not go well along with being an open and liberal society. Let people wear what they want - if the consequence is that they are judged by others, it's their own problem.
  • It will, for reasons discussed by others in this thread, not liberate many women. The social code of their sub-culture (or oppressive husbands, if you like) will rather make them stay at home, and alienate them further from society.
  • If the purpose is to fight radical Islamism, banning symbols of it is not going to do much.
The ban of the so-called "burkini", a ban which is now introduced in several French cities, makes even less sense to me. I don't think it is reasonable to see that as a symbol of radical Islam at all. Women from that sort of environments don't go to the beach anyway. I see it more as a piece of clothing that allows more mainstream Muslim women to go to the beach without conflicting with what they consider to be modest. This ban, to me, looks like a means to appease the Front National camp and nothing else.
 
The analogy isn't just imperfect, it's bad.

Mainly because you have hijab-/niqab-wearing women who themselves say they consider it their right to wear their garments. I doubt you'd find many black slaves who would argue it was their right to be owned by white men. Maybe these women consider it a right because of a culture rich in religious brainwashing, but not forced upon them by law. (Iran is an example of women being forced to wear the hijab by law, and I think Iranian women are among the most likely to stop wearing it when they move abroad)

Remember, we are talking about people who live in countries (i.e. Europe) where wearing these types of clothes is not the norm, but who still do it. It is arrogant to claim that the majority of these women wear what they wear because they are forced to.

Mind you, I am aware that some are forced. I just don't think banning the attire as such is a good way of helping these people. It just helps those who want to reinforce the "us and them" mindset among the Muslim minority.

I'd say one woman who stops wearing a hijab/niqab/burqa because she wants to stop it, does more in this respect than many who stop because they are ordered to.
 
How does the Global Ethic apply to things like war, abortion and free speech?
How does it define just, tolerance, truth and equal?

Respectfully, those are apple pie statements.
I don't see anything particularly groundbreaking there.
 
The leader of the main opposition party in Turkey (CHP) survived an assassination attempt today. Apparently prepared by PKK militants. A gendarmarie truck that was responsible for guiding the CHP convoy that was travelling in the northeasternmost city in the country took fire and a soldier was killed.
 
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Lots of Turkish intimidation (within the Turkish community, urged by the long arm of Erdogan and a.o. ways via his consul) in my country. It goes so far that children have problems with going to school. National politicians have trouble doing much about it because of the refugee deal.

Ahmed Aboutaleb, major of Rotterdam has had enough of it and wants to have a good talk with Turkish consul Sadin Ayyildiz, who wrote a letter to majors of the Rotterdam region. The exact content is unknown, but probably he asks majors to forbid demonstrations from opponents of the Turkish government.

Aboutaleb: ‘Turkey has the right to decide how to deal with its citizens. But can we please also decide ourselves how to deal with all kinds of freedoms here. I do not accept interference with the way we exercise our freedoms.’

Last week around 150 Kurds demonstrated for the release of Öcalan, protested against persecution of the Kurds in the south east of Turkey. They swept with Kurdish flags with Öcalan on it, and walked a route. Then a clash with anti-demonstrants followed.

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My only burkini sighting was in an indoor pool in Vancouver while on vacation. My thoughts were a) you have to be shitting me that this guy is most likely making his wife and in the future will make his daughter wear one of these things and b) the woman has to be a pretty damn good swimmer to do laps in the pool wearing that thing, in a normal swim suit, probably a faster swimmer than me.
 
Hopefully the 3rd time will be a charm in Austria

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The rerun of the second round of Austria’s presidential election will be pushed to December 4, parliament decided Monday.

Interior Minister Wolfgang Sobotka said that there was “no other day possible for organizational and technical reasons,” according to local media.

Voting irregularities saw the country’s constitutional court overturn the results of the second-round of the presidential election in May, in which Norbert Hofer, of the far-right Freedom Party (FPÖ) lost to Alexander Van der Bellen, the former Green party leader, by 31,000 votes.

A rerun was initially scheduled for October 2, but Sobotka sought parliamentary approval to delay that vote due to a problem with the glue for envelopes containing postal votes. This caused the cards to break open after they had been sealed, making the ballot invalid.
 
I've been extremely worried by the latest developments in Poland and the proposed blanket ban on abortion that the Polish government is trying to introduce. That's a really good example of why religious fundamentalism is a curse for humanity, regardless of the religion. If the law is introduced, it wouldn't be only women in Poland that would suffer, it would be a breach of human rights on a global scale.
 
It is a terrible development indeed, resulting in large protests. I'm not a fan of abortion in all cases, but if it's up to the government, raped women can't have abortion anymore.

And then some:
"They want to introduce an anti-abortion law which will mean in many cases, women will be sentenced to death. It will take away the sense of security they have, the treatment options available when pregnancy puts their lives or health in danger."

One gynaecologist warned that the law as it is worded now could effectively lead to doctors being unwilling to do invasive prenatal tests and lifesaving operations.

Prof Romuald Debski, who works at a hospital in Warsaw, told Polish media: "Whoever causes the death of the unborn child is punishable by imprisonment up to three years. If I have a patient with pre-eclampsia, who is 32 weeks pregnant, I will have to let her and her child die.

"I have to, because if I perform a caesarean section and the child dies, I may go to prison for three years, because the child was premature."

Pre-eclampsia is a potentially fatal condition that can develop in the second half of pregnancy and can only be cured by delivering the baby.
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Poland is still a very heavily Catholic country. Not to the point of being theocratic like many Middle-Eastern countries, but very religious and rather fundamental with their beliefs, such as anti-homosexuality.

Also, this Daily Mail cover really got under my skin today:
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As someone who identifies with the liberal elitists, I can say we don't find patriotism distasteful, rather the brand of nationalism that has reared its head in recent years across Europe. Concerns about immigration are fine, but not outright vitriol, the likes of which are commonplace nowadays. I don't exactly know what she means by views on crime, but the 17 million people voting to leave the EU is bewildering, because it goes against the best interests of the state and by extension, the people, and removes a lot of necessary red-tape so that the oligarchs to run rampant and for the poor to get even poorer.
 
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Re the anti-abortion movement, I do wonder how much of it is part of a non-religious political trend, too. The only pro-lifers I've spoken to weren't remotely religious. Their opinion was based around the right of a foetus to life as the most important consideration, any suffering caused to a foetus, and the lack of rights of the man - even one who has no intention of raising or being involved in a child's life - to stop a woman having an abortion.
 
My opinion is that abortion should be the woman's choice, no matter the circumstance. I'd feel pretty bad if it was my child in question, but I'm not the one having to go through 9 months of pregnancy.
 
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