European Politics
- Thread starter Forostar
- Start date
It's easier for people to get worked up about him and about immigration. Both in commercial media and on social media, the likes of TTIP is difficult for the layman to get his head around unless someone picks out one specific potential negative and goes into it in detail. Until recently, the issue that got the most attention here was Monsanto and bees. Not wanting to downplay the issue, but the average person doesn't get worked up about bees. Large healthcare companies barging their way in and getting a stranglehold on the NHS might raise a few more eyebrows. Or it would if Cameron wasn't paving the way for that anyway.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
How worked up do we get about the recent nonsense from Boris Johnson?
Johnson likens EU’s superstate efforts to Nazi dictator
Boris Johnson has lost his “moral compass” by making “offensive and desperate” comments that compared European Union efforts to build a superstate to Hitler’s attempt to dominate the continent, Hilary Benn has said.
The former mayor of London drew criticism on Saturday after making the link between the EU and the Nazi dictator in a newspaper interview. While he acknowledged the EU was using “different methods” to the Nazis, his incendiary comparison quickly enraged Remain campaigners.
In an interview with the Sunday Telegraph, Johnson, seen as the de facto leader of the Leave campaign, said the past 2,000 years of European history had been dominated by doomed attempts to unify the continent under a single government to recreate the “golden age” of the Romans.
“Napoleon, Hitler, various people tried this out, and it ends tragically. The EU is an attempt to do this by different methods,” he said.
“But fundamentally, what is lacking is the eternal problem, which is that there is no underlying loyalty to the idea of Europe. There is no single authority that anybody respects or understands. That is causing this massive democratic void.”
Responding to the comments, the shadow foreign secretary, Hilary Benn, said: “Leave campaigners have lost the economic argument and now they are losing their moral compass.
“After the horror of the second world war, the EU helped to bring an end to centuries of conflict in Europe, and for Boris Johnson to make this comparison is both offensive and desperate.”
The former cabinet minister Yvette Cooper, a member of the Britain Stronger In Europe campaign, accused Johnson of playing a “nasty, nasty game”.
“The more he flails around with this kind of hysterical claim, the more he exposes his shameful lack of judgement, his willingness to play the most divisive cynical politics, and the emptiness of his arguments,” she said.
“One week it is dog-whistle attacks on President [Barack] Obama. Now he is trying to liken the institution that has kept peace on our continent for decades with Hitler, who pursued the genocide of millions of innocent people.
“All because he is desperately seeking headlines for a desperate campaign. He should not try to play political games with the darkest and most sinister chapter of Europe’s history. The EU has played a critical role keeping peace in Europe ever since.” .......
Johnson likens EU’s superstate efforts to Nazi dictator
Boris Johnson has lost his “moral compass” by making “offensive and desperate” comments that compared European Union efforts to build a superstate to Hitler’s attempt to dominate the continent, Hilary Benn has said.
The former mayor of London drew criticism on Saturday after making the link between the EU and the Nazi dictator in a newspaper interview. While he acknowledged the EU was using “different methods” to the Nazis, his incendiary comparison quickly enraged Remain campaigners.
In an interview with the Sunday Telegraph, Johnson, seen as the de facto leader of the Leave campaign, said the past 2,000 years of European history had been dominated by doomed attempts to unify the continent under a single government to recreate the “golden age” of the Romans.
“Napoleon, Hitler, various people tried this out, and it ends tragically. The EU is an attempt to do this by different methods,” he said.
“But fundamentally, what is lacking is the eternal problem, which is that there is no underlying loyalty to the idea of Europe. There is no single authority that anybody respects or understands. That is causing this massive democratic void.”
Responding to the comments, the shadow foreign secretary, Hilary Benn, said: “Leave campaigners have lost the economic argument and now they are losing their moral compass.
“After the horror of the second world war, the EU helped to bring an end to centuries of conflict in Europe, and for Boris Johnson to make this comparison is both offensive and desperate.”
The former cabinet minister Yvette Cooper, a member of the Britain Stronger In Europe campaign, accused Johnson of playing a “nasty, nasty game”.
“The more he flails around with this kind of hysterical claim, the more he exposes his shameful lack of judgement, his willingness to play the most divisive cynical politics, and the emptiness of his arguments,” she said.
“One week it is dog-whistle attacks on President [Barack] Obama. Now he is trying to liken the institution that has kept peace on our continent for decades with Hitler, who pursued the genocide of millions of innocent people.
“All because he is desperately seeking headlines for a desperate campaign. He should not try to play political games with the darkest and most sinister chapter of Europe’s history. The EU has played a critical role keeping peace in Europe ever since.” .......
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bearfan
Ancient Mariner
The Hitler/Napoleon comparison is stupid for two reasons .. 1) it is not really a fair comparison and 2) anything you say after that will be ignored, which is too bad because:
“But fundamentally, what is lacking is the eternal problem, which is that there is no underlying loyalty to the idea of Europe. There is no single authority that anybody respects or understands. That is causing this massive democratic void.”
Is a valid argument
“But fundamentally, what is lacking is the eternal problem, which is that there is no underlying loyalty to the idea of Europe. There is no single authority that anybody respects or understands. That is causing this massive democratic void.”
Is a valid argument
But it's not true. Many Europeans are highly supportive of the idea of Europe. There is a general discontentment with the democracy deficiency and lack of transparency, but the reality of the European Union and the idea of European unity are two different things, and most people know the difference.
bearfan
Ancient Mariner
I'll buy that ... I guess my main point was the lack of democracy/transparency in the actual EU is a legitimate point of debate.
CriedWhenBrucieLeft
Meme Only Account
Very little. It's Boris we're talking about here.
In respect to England it does appear to be an issue though.
CriedWhenBrucieLeft
Meme Only Account
No, I don't agree. Boris doesn't appear, so far, to be changing anything. Half of England, give or take, has always thought & been receptive to this kind of anti-Europe rhetoric I think. I've no idea of the stats, but I can't imagine people's opinions have shifted that much so far. If anything they're shifting in the other direction...
https://ig.ft.com/sites/brexit-polling/
I do. I think it would be a constitutional shitride for the UK.
Correct. While Brexiters might not 100% believe what Boris says, they'll be clapping him on the back for taking that kind of stance, accepting that it's an outspoken exaggeration. Suspicion about the potential ambitions of France and Germany have been a major feature of Euroscepticism down here, along with a certain amount of disdain for other European countries. I wasn't aware until recently really that this sort of talk wasn't also commonplace in Scotland, which has really got me wondering about a lingering Anglocentric imperialist mindset.
CriedWhenBrucieLeft
Meme Only Account
Indeed, well said. I've mentioned it here before, but the contrast is startling between the reality in Scotland & what I'm seeing in the news. There is absolutely zero appetite for exiting Europe in Scotland, as far as I can see/hear. I'm guessing those who voted no in the Independence Referendum are probably the most concerned with how this might pan out. I still can't see it happening, to be honest.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
I think you are Brig are underestimating this somewhat, indeed.
CriedWhenBrucieLeft
Meme Only Account
I'm not underestimating it. On the balance of evidence, and looking at the economic arguments, I just don't think a majority will vote to leave. Plus, you have the very real prospect, if that did happen (voting to leave), that the majority might be very, very slender. The decision of the people, in European voting in other countries, has been ignored before i.e. a vote to leave doesn't mean it would actual happen. Boris even spoke about this at the start of the campaign; using a majority leave vote to leverage concessions from Europe --but remain after getting more of whatever it is he & his supporters want e.g. sovereignty, "control of our borders", etc etc.
CriedWhenBrucieLeft
Meme Only Account
Yes, as they did in the Scottish Independence Referendum. Money matters a lot to people; I think it's a massive argument for not voting to leave. The economic argument is ultimately about uncertainty. It's hard to reconcile this with the "taking back control" vote-leave tagline i.e. vote to leave & gain control of your borders... but, eh, face years of economic uncertainty & probable decline, as we try & renegotiate trade deals etc (things not fully within our control). To be honest, it'll be interesting to see how many people actually do ignore this & vote to leave anyway, basing their vote on all this immigration "problem" nonsense.
It's really just another status quo vote.