European Politics

I'm sure there was a delay for Bulgaria and Romania, because I remember the scare stories just before that restriction expired.
 
CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
This is a perfectly normal "immigration" argument, Flash. Are you saying people wouldn't, in significant numbers, move (to work) from Turkey to the UK if Turkey joined Europe?; or are you just saying being concerned about this is nonsensical?
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Both. Turks have only immigrated to European countries in masses when they were specifically accepted to work there, as in, when those countries were in need of cheap labour. This is not Syria, Iraq, Pakistan or Afghanistan we're talking about. It's Turkey. A G-20 country. It makes zero sense for a Turk to immigrate to Europe if there's no specific job opportunity for them.

The ones in the country who want to immigrate are usually the educated class who want to move on to more free pastures with more opportunities for the educated and qualified. That I'm sure wouldn't concern anybody in the UK. Being on the receiving end of a brain drain is good for any country. Even in the case of brain drain, Europe is less than ideal for Turks at the moment. I'm one of the people who may look to move abroad, but there's no chance in hell I'm immigrating to Europe. I'd much rather stay in Turkey and wait for things to turn around than move to Europe.
 
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The Flash said:
Both. Turks have only immigrated to European countries in masses when they were specifically accepted to work there, as in, when those countries were in need of cheap labour.
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Eh, so how does that not apply here?
The Flash said:
This is not Syria, Iraq, Pakistan or Afghanistan we're talking about. It's Turkey. A G-20 country.
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It makes no difference if it's Turkey or the US; it's a country joining the EU, therefore freedom of movement applies & control of immigration is eroded.
The Flash said:
It makes zero sense for a Turk to immigrate to Europe if there's no specific job opportunity for them.
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Indeed, but you explain the reason's people would move yourself...
The Flash said:
The ones in the country who want to immigrate are usually the educated class who want to move on to more free pastures with more opportunities for the educated and qualified.
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This is what the immigration argument is about.
The Flash said:
That I'm sure wouldn't concern anybody in the UK. Being on the receiving end of a brain drain is good for any country.
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You'd think, wouldn't you? But that's the anti-EU pro-Brexit brigade for you...
 
What part of "specifically accepted" do you not understand? Turks will only move to a European country if said European country wants cheap labour specifically and makes that a clear policy. Turks are very passionate about their country. They'll only look to move if it's the absolute last resort. And most Turks keep very close ties with their families for their entire life so "moving by yourself" is a thing that very rarely happens. And very few can take an entire family with them. This more so a cultural issue than anything.

I don't think I need to come up with an argument on being against receiving human capital flight. That is simply stupid and likely has its grounds on racism. And we come full circle: It's stupid to be concerned about an influx of Turkish immigrants.
 
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Meanwhile some terrible news from Turkey: Cumhuriyet journalists Can Dundar and Erdem Gul can go to prison for unveiling Turkey's weapon transports to Al-Nusra.

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Seriously, this is outrageous!

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Mr Dundar has remained positive throughout his trial and says he doe not regret his reporting
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Well, that's something positive at least.

Still: Freedom of the press in Turkey
  • Turkey ranks 151st amongst the 180 countries in the Reporters Without Borders' World Press Freedom Index 2016
  • Media organisations in Turkey say that more than 30 journalists are currently behind bars
  • Most are of Kurdish origin
  • The government argues journalism in Turkey is among the most free in the world
 
No worries, @Forostar I highly doubt they'll actually serve that sentence. They have the right to appeal and the sentence is very likely to be overturned by supreme court. Domestic court most likely gave them that sentence to get themselves free out of government pressure. They're pretty much passing the ball to supreme court to deal with it. They gave them the right to appeal and lifted their travelling abroad ban.
 
The Flash said:
What part of "specifically accepted" do you not understand? Turks will only move to a European country if said European country wants cheap labour specifically and makes that a clear policy. Turks are very passionate about their country. They'll only look to move if it's the absolute last resort. And most Turks keep very close ties with their families for their entire life so "moving by yourself" is a thing that very rarely happens. And very few can take an entire family with them. This more so a cultural issue than anything.
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Stop taking this so personally. I understand the issue just fine, jusThis is not, if it isn't obvious to you, about Turkey. This about some people in the UK being inordinately preoccupied with the idea that "swarms" of foreigners are going to take their jobs & ruin their culture. It's nonsensical. We're not in disagreement here. Turkey potentially joining the EU is just another opportunity to voice these concerns.
The Flash said:
I don't think I need to come up with an argument on being against receiving human capital flight. That is simply stupid and likely has its grounds on racism. And we come full circle: It's stupid to be concerned about an influx of Turkish immigrants.
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Indeed.
 
The Flash said:
No worries, @Forostar I highly doubt they'll actually serve that sentence. They have the right to appeal and the sentence is very likely to be overturned by supreme court. Domestic court most likely gave them that sentence to get themselves free out of government pressure. They're pretty much passing the ball to supreme court to deal with it. They gave them the right to appeal and lifted their travelling abroad ban.
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Ah, well that sounds better!
 
CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
Stop taking this so personally. This is not, if it isn't obvious to you, about Turkey. This about some people in the UK being inordinately preoccupied with the idea that "swarms" of foreigners are going to take their jobs & ruin their culture. It's nonsensical. We're not in disagreement here.
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Then why did you object to me when I called it a stupid argument? I didn't say the argument didn't exist. Just that it's stupid.
 
The Flash said:
Then why did you object to me when I called it a stupid argument? I didn't say the argument didn't exist. Just that it's stupid.
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You said it was "one of the stupidest arguments I've ever heard". It's not that stupid, it's just not grounded in a great deal of fact.

Maybe I should have been a bit clearer to begin with...
 
Erdoyawn... there has to be something else out there than just Erdoǧan, Erdoǧan, Erdoǧan all the time.
 
Bad news rules I'm afraid. The man's arms are so long that he is a huge topic in every European country with a Turkish community (as you know of course ;-) ).
 
But there's so much happening right now. TTIP, CETA, refugees, terrorism, ECB politics, the looming threat of EU disintegration... and all that's done is the convenient finger pointing on one guy in Turkey. I just don't get it.
 
It does make a difference that Erdoğan is a key figure in both refugees and terrorism conversations. Not like everyone is really interested in Turkey's internal affairs. Erdoğan has been the way he is for years now but it's only recently that the Western world started to pay attention.
 
The rise of Sultan Erdogan sends fear into the hearts of men. He started using the EU when he the role of President was a mere ceremonial one, and now he changed it into something totalitarian. No opposition, no freedom of media, this is a very alarming development. It already was, of course. But it gets worse every day. And indeed, he has a huge connection with the refugees. The Syrian ones, at least. There's this crap deal with the EU, and also: Turkey sends refugees back to Syria.

The hate seeding that is going on out there (and here via "state mosques"!) against everyone who's different, it's all wrong. Everyday the state controlled media scream of "land betrayers" (sorry don't know the English term) and "terrorists" when someone criticizes current development.
Erdogan is a key problem, and it will be anybody's guess how Europe will continue to deal with this dictator.
 
What about TTIP and CETA? Are these not important?

I'm not saying Erdoğan isn't important, I just don't see how he is the only thing that's important
 
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