European Politics

The Flash said:
As stupid as attacking people for cartoons is, using those cartoons to piss off Muslims is pretty fucking stupid as well.
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Disagree.
I don't think "we" started this. If we back off now, they've won. They're fighting against democracy, let them have extremes of it too.

Nobody should be protected from mockery or satire or just jokes.
 
As I said before, I'm all for mocking all religions and freedom of speech, but in this case, you're literally asking to be killed. It's just far too dangerous and not worth it.
 
Night Prowler said:
As I said before, I'm all for mocking all religions and freedom of speech, but in this case, you're literally asking to be killed. It's just far too dangerous and not worth it.
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I think it is worth it in general, free speech is worth a lot and letting a group of essentially bullies/terrorists tell people what they should say is wrong .. very very wrong
 
Well some people can be bullied, some can't.
Altrough I'd like Wilders to show it, get killed, with assasin getting immediately killed by police.

Win-win.
 
The Flash said:
Provocation is not "free speech". You provoke people for a reason, to push your own agenda.
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Of course it is.. a proper resonse is to argue against it .. not tell people to shut up or meet it with violence. If their speech is so wrong, it should be pretty easy to refute. Just banning it is an intellectually lazy endeavour.
 
bearfan said:
Of course it is.. a proper resonse is to argue against it .. not tell people to shut up or meet it with violence. If their speech is so wrong, it should be pretty easy to refute. Just banning it is an intellectually lazy endeavour.
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If you insult what people feel is their honor, you cannot expect them to argue with you reasonably. That's not how the world works. I realize it's difficult to grasp why Muslims are so offended by the cartoons, but it is what it is.
 
If we're pushing for a reasonable world, why should we accept that?


Closely pay atention at the end about the religions "evolving" above burning people etc.
 
The Flash said:
If you insult what people feel is their honor, you cannot expect them to argue with you reasonably. That's not how the world works. I realize it's difficult to grasp why Muslims are so offended by the cartoons, but it is what it is.
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You can find any group ... especially religious groups .. that are offended by something. What you are pretty much saying is do not insult groups of people that threaten to kill you, the rest of them .. screw 'em.
 
bearfan said:
You can find any group ... especially religious groups .. that are offended by something. What you are pretty much saying is do not insult groups of people that threaten to kill you, the rest of them .. screw 'em.
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Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say "Change your ways to please others". If you're gonna publish a Muhammad cartoon because it's what you want to do, fine. Go ahead. But if you're doing it just for the sake of pissing off Muslims, that's not gonna cut it. You're not doing any favors for anyone there. Us Against Them approach has never worked and never will.

Don't know why you're posting Dawkins to argue against me, @Zare, I'm an atheist.
 
That is what these people do ... I think they are making the point that a religious group should not dictate policy ... I doubt the motives of this bunch are really that pure .. but that is still a valid point. It seems we are finally getting to the point where Christian churches have less and less of an influence on public policy and debate ... turning around and giving that authority to a different church seems very counter productive. Muslims may not like it .. but I would be willing to bet if they stopped murdering people for stuff like this ... stuff like this would stop as well.
 
No I wasn't arguing you, sorry if it appeared that way. I was just reinforcing the fact, what Dawkins said, that secular socieity has pushed civilization out of tons of religious superstitions. I'd add that a lot of blood has been spilled in this historical process. The fight today is no different.
 
And bearfan is right, Muslim hate sells these days. If situation was normal, this kind of move by a media house would be heavily scrutinized by general public, as well, because it just attacks a group of people for fun.

But situation isn't normal.
 
bearfan said:
That is what these people do ... I think they are making the point that a religious group should not dictate policy ... I doubt the motives of this bunch are really that pure .. but that is still a valid point. It seems we are finally getting to the point where Christian churches have less and less of an influence on public policy and debate ... turning around and giving that authority to a different church seems very counter productive. Muslims may not like it .. but I would be willing to bet if they stopped murdering people for stuff like this ... stuff like this would stop as well.
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First off, let's cut the "Muslims kill people" nonsense. Extremists kill people. Publishing a cartoon of Muhammad is going to offend every single Muslim. However, chances are only extremists are going to attack you for it. Muslims would be pissed off that it's done, but they're not gonna go out of a limb and try to prevent you from doing so.
 
The Flash said:
First off, let's cut the "Muslims kill people" nonsense. Extremists kill people. Publishing a cartoon of Muhammad is going to offend every single Muslim. However, chances are only extremists are going to attack you for it. Muslims would be pissed off that it's done, but they're not gonna go out of a limb and try to prevent you from doing so.
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In this case Muslim extremists, which at least some percentage of non-extremists at least tacitly support
 
Zare said:
And bearfan is right, Muslim hate sells these days. If situation was normal, this kind of move by a media house would be heavily scrutinized by general public, as well, because it just attacks a group of people for fun.

But situation isn't normal.
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If it were Christian extremists upset at gathering of homosexual art .. I doubt the conversation would be the same. I am not directing this at anyone here, but it does boggle the mind looking at some postings on FB, lefty news site, etc from people that attack some Christian churches for some of their positions support Muslims .. when Muslim states at least take a much more hard line stance on things like gay rights, women's rights, etc.
 
bearfan said:
In this case Muslim extremists, which at least some percentage of non-extremists at least tacitly support
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That's BS. Non-extremists do not support extremists behaviour. If they did, they wouldn't be called "non-extremists" in the first place. Look, I don't know what impression Western media gives you about Muslim people. But the support for these violent acts is incredibly low among Muslims. Much, much lower than you probably think it is.

People who "defend" Muslims are defending them for the growing Islamophobia. That includes me, a non-religious person.
 
The Flash said:
That's BS. Non-extremists do not support extremists behaviour. If they did, they wouldn't be called "non-extremists" in the first place. Look, I don't know what impression Western media gives you about Muslim people. But the support for these violent acts is incredibly low among Muslims. Much, much lower than you probably think it is.
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Which is why I said some percentage ... I do not know what that percentage is of people who may at least tacitly support these activities. Clearly many are opposed to it ... and good for them.
 
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