European Politics

There are more Peters than Paul's in their scenario
Nah. Most people benefit from socialist schemes in modern democracies - social security/OAP, NHS/Medicare, Welfare/Social Assistance. Whether or not they work well is a different consideration, but the NHS still ranks very highly in the UK as a program (they would rather have it or not). The key for socialist vs non-socialist is taking advantage of that people consider it a right compared to a thing that is a socialist scheme.
 
Like the old saying goes, the politician that robs Peter to pay Paul can always count on Paul's supprt

If you're referring to it as a thoroughly considered anti-EU vote, no, I don't think that's why there's been a surge of support for UKIP. It's because they've become populist spokesmen for what you might consider a whole disenfranchised section of the population. The party that dares stand up to the system which put them where they are today. UKIP speaks to people as native Britons who deserve privilege as their birth right, and the disillusioned find they have something they can identify with. Which is bizarre, because they'd be among the first people to be shafted if UKIP had any power.
 
Nah. Most people benefit from socialist schemes in modern democracies - social security/OAP, NHS/Medicare, Welfare/Social Assistance. Whether or not they work well is a different consideration, but the NHS still ranks very highly in the UK as a program (they would rather have it or not). The key for socialist vs non-socialist is taking advantage of that people consider it a right compared to a thing that is a socialist scheme.


We obviously differ greatly here.
 
If you're referring to it as a thoroughly considered anti-EU vote, no, I don't think that's why there's been a surge of support for UKIP. It's because they've become populist spokesmen for what you might consider a whole disenfranchised section of the population. The party that dares stand up to the system which put them where they are today. UKIP speaks to people as native Britons who deserve privilege as their birth right, and the disillusioned find they have something they can identify with. Which is bizarre, because they'd be among the first people to be shafted if UKIP had any power.

I think we are saying about the same thing, they are getting an issue/anti establishment vote more so than building some kind of long term voter base
 
When you get your ass beat that bad it's bad form to stick around.

I'm thinking of doing an AV projection for the UK election like I did for the last 2 Canadian Federal elections.
 
A staunch defence of liberalism from the retiring Nick Clegg, who reportedly left the room in tears after delivering his resignation statement.
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Here is Nick Clegg's resignation speech as leader of the Liberal Democrats in full:


"I always expected this election to be exceptionally difficult for the Liberal Democrats given the heavy responsibilities we’ve had to bear in government in the most challenging of circumstances. Clearly the results have been immeasurably more crushing and unkind than I could ever have feared.

"For that, of course, I must take responsibility, and therefore I announce that I will be resigning as leader of the Liberal Democrats. A leadership election will now take place according to the party’s rules.

"For the last seven years it’s been a privilege, a huge privilege, an unlimited honour, to lead a party of the most resilient, courageous, and remarkable people. The Liberal Democrats are a family and I will always be extremely proud of the warmth, good grace, and good humour which our political family has shown through the ups and downs of recent years. I want to thank every member, ever campaigner, every councillor, and every parliamentarian for the commitment you have shown to our country and to our party.

"It is simply heartbreaking to see so many friends and colleagues who have served their constituents so diligently over so many years abruptly lose their seats because of forces entirely beyond their control.

"In 2007 after a night of disappointing election results for our party in Edinburgh, Alex Cole Hamilton said this: if his defeat was part-payment for the ending of child detention, then he accepted it with all his heart.

"Those words revealed a selfless dignity which is very rare in politics but common amongst Liberal Democrats. If our losses today are part payment for every family that is more secure because of a job we helped to create, every person with depression who is treated with a compassion they deserve, every child who does a little better in school, every apprentice with a long and rewarding career to look forward to, every gay couple who know that their love is worth no less than anyone else’s and every pensioner with a little more freedom and dignity in retirement then I hope at least our losses can be endured with a little selfless dignity too.

"We will never know how many lives we changed for the better because we had the courage to step up at a time of crisis. But we have done something that cannot be undone because there can be no doubt that we government with Britain a far stronger, fairer, greener, and more liberal country than it was five years ago.

"However unforgiving the judgement has been at the ballot box, I believe the history books will judge our party kindly for the service we sought to provide to the nation at a time of great economic difficulty and for the policies and values which we brought to bear in government.

"Opportunity, fairness, and liberty, which I believe will stand the test of time. To have served my country at a time of crisis is an honour that will stay with me forever. I hope those who are granted the opportunity to serve our country in government now and in the future will recognise the privilege and responsibility that they’ve been given. It’s the greatest thing they’ll ever do.

"It is of course too early to give a considered account of why we have suffered catastrophic losses we have, and the party will have to reflect on these in the time ahead. One thing seems to me is clear: liberalism, here, as well as across Europe, is not faring well against the politics of fear.

"Years of remorseless economic and social hardship following the crash in 2008 and the grinding insecurities of globalisation have led for people to reach to new certainties: the politics of identity, of nationalism, of us versus them is now on the rise.

"It is clear that in constituency after constituency north of the border the beguiling appeal of Scottish Nationalism has swept all before it and south of the border a fear about what that means for the United Kingdom has strengthened English conservatism too. This now brings our country to a very perilous point in our history where grievance and fear combine to drive our different communities apart.

"I hope that our leaders across the United Kingdom realise the disastrous consequences for our way of life and the integrity of our United Kingdom if they continue to appeal to grievance rather than generosity and fear rather than hope. It’s not exaggeration to say that in the absence of strong and statesmanlike leadership Britain’s place in Europe and the world and the continued existence of our United Kingdom itself is now in grave jeopardy. The cruellest irony of all is that it is exactly at this time that British liberalism, that fine, noble tradition that believes we are stronger together and weaker apart is needed more than ever before.

"Fear and grievance have won, liberalism has lost. But it is more precious than ever and we must keep fighting for it. That is both the great challenge and the great cause that my successor will have to face. I will always give my unstinting support for all those who continue to keep the flame of British liberalism alive.

"On the morning of the most crushing blow to the Liberal Democrats since our party was founded it is easy to imagine that there is no road back, but there is – because there is no path to a fairer, greener, freer Britain without British liberalism showing the way. This is a very dark hour for our party but we cannot and will not allow decent liberal values to be extinguished overnight.

"Our party will come back, our party will win again, it will take patience, resilience and grit. That is what has built our party before and will rebuild it again. Thank you."

 
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Just reading some of the comments here & taking in some of the stats, now that I'm home...

I have to admit that the headline Tory seats figure, of 331, is slightly surprising. Still, it's a tiny majority, and if there's any dissent over the next parliamentary term, then the size of the majority may be a problem.

In Scotland: the SNP just pissed all over everyone, with 50% of the vote, & 56 out of 59 seats; massive labour names, gone; SNP taking all seven Glasgow seats (from having held none); one constituency recording the biggest swing in UK political history since records began (back in the 1800's); 71% turnout in Scotland; 80%+ in two areas. And if you look at the Conservative (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale & Tweeddale) & Lib. Dem. (Orkney & Shetland) holds, they won by under a thousand votes from the SNP. It was nearly the 58 seats the exit polls were suggesting.

You guys also have to understand the political landscape in Scotland. The SNP's popularity is not the nationalist movement some of you seem to be alluding to & handwringing about (here & in previous posts regarding the Independence Referendum). The idea that the majority would vote to stay in the UK (last year), but vote SNP here is not contradictory; or even a sign necessarily that more people are moving towards the SNP's position.

My general impression is that Scotland doesn't understand or care about UK/English politics anymore. The SNP first came to power as a minority government & earned much praise by simply getting on the with the job. At the next Scottish elections they gained a majority. Their record in government is not to be sniffed at. I think people look around at the alternatives & think they've governed & represented Scotland pretty well.

Not well enough to vote Yes, it's true. But bear in mind (a stat I read recently) that of the total eligible voters in the Independence Referendum (~4.2 million) less than half (~2 million) voted to stay in the UK. The SNP simply brushed of this result & rolled on to the incredible results of today. Their party membership is now matched by the Labour & Conservative parties only, due to the massive amount of people who joined post-referendum. I think since the referendum the other parties have spend too much time patting themselves on the back.

It's inevitable that if the SNP wipe the floor at the next Scottish elections there will be another Independence Referendum.
 
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It's inevitable that if the SNP wipe the floor at the next Scottish elections there will be another Independence Referendum.
This reminds me a lot of the situation with Quebec in Canada in the 1980s and 1990s. Failed referendum followed by success at the Federal level. Followed by another failed referendum.
 
Scotland is still significantly better off in most ways as part of the UK, however, I think the question must be asked, "What is the UK". And I think that as powers devolve we'll see a more traditional system of states/provinces develop.
 
I'm not sure what devolution will actually mean to most of England, though. People assumed 'English Votes for English Voters' would mean regional assemblies, but I don't see that. Or if they did it, it would be talking shops with hefty responsibilities and too small a budget. So-called 'localism' has been going on for a few years now, and in practice, all it has meant is a method of undermining local authorities and letting them take the blame for massive cuts in spending.
 
Beyond the speech Foro posted, the outgoing labor leader complained of nationalism as well. My impression is they are directing that at Scottish Nationalism ... not so much nationalism as general. It seems the vote in Scotland is what cost those two parties the most. Is this a correct reading of what they were complaining about?
 
Beyond the speech Foro posted, the outgoing labor leader complained of nationalism as well. My impression is they are directing that at Scottish Nationalism ... not so much nationalism as general. It seems the vote in Scotland is what cost those two parties the most. Is this a correct reading of what they were complaining about?
Labour & LD held 41 & 11 seats, respectively, in Scotland in 2010; the SNP had 6 seats. They now have one seat each, & the SNP have 56. Even if Labour had wiped the floor in Scotland & taken 50 seats or so, they still wouldn't even have have had 300 seats nationally. They would still not have beaten the Conservatives. This might have been relevant if the Conservatives hadn't have won a majority, but that didn't happen either. The Lib. Dems? They lost ten seats in Scotland; I can't see how, nationally, this makes any difference. Once the Conservatives achieved a majority the Lib. Dem's became a bit of an irrelevance.
 
Labour & LD held 41 & 11 seats, respectively, in Scotland in 2010; the SNP had 6 seats. They now have one seat each, & the SNP have 56. Even if Labour had wiped the floor in Scotland & taken 50 seats or so, they still wouldn't even have have had 300 seats. They would still not have beaten the Conservatives. This might have been relevant if the Conservatives hadn't have won a majority, but that didn't happen either. The Lib. Dems? They lost ten seats in Scotland; I can't see how, nationally, this makes any difference. Once the Conservatives achieved a majority the Lib. Dem's became a bit of an irrelevance.


Gotcha, I guess my question really is, when the leaders of these parties on their way out, are complaining against Nationalism ... is it Scottish nationalism that they are complaining about? ... rightly or wrongly
 
Gotcha, I guess my question really is, when the leaders of these parties on their way out, are complaining against Nationalism ... is it Scottish nationalism that they are complaining about? ... rightly or wrongly
No idea. Fundamentally, the majority of Scotland voted SNP because they believe (rightly or wrongly) that the SNP will best represent Scotland & Scottish interests at Westminster. And, crucially, that the other parties cannot be trusted to do this. I only listened to their speaches once; was there anything in particular they said or was it just a general tone/feeling? I recall Clegg moaning about how unkind it had all been, but that history would remember them...
 
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