MrKnickerbocker
clap hands
Portnoy's personality was undoubtedly a factor in them kicking him out of the band and I think the ever-increasing presence of his "chunky" backing vocals was a complete misstep for the band. I'm not saying he was completely at fault for the songwriting, Petrucci clearly had an equal hand in it, but the albums post-Portnoy have been IMO far more consistent, enjoyable, and restrained.
I want the metal back, but they don't need Portnoy to do it.
I want the metal back, but they don't need Portnoy to do it.
Saapanael
Ancient Mariner
Portnoy had an energetic impact in DT and it's a delight to watch some "making of album" videos where Petrucci and Portnoy seemed to really be the philosophers and leaders 
P) behind the band. Eventually, Portnoy's eccentric nature became his doom. I do feel like there is something missing from post-Portnoy but they are completely capable of writing fantastic songs without him (Breaking All Illusions is the prime example). They could loosen their style, the newer songs seem too dictated although that works out in the case of The Looking Glass, which I find to be a thoroughly enjoyable song.
Precisely.
P) behind the band. Eventually, Portnoy's eccentric nature became his doom. I do feel like there is something missing from post-Portnoy but they are completely capable of writing fantastic songs without him (Breaking All Illusions is the prime example). They could loosen their style, the newer songs seem too dictated although that works out in the case of The Looking Glass, which I find to be a thoroughly enjoyable song.Precisely.
SixesAlltheway
Ancient Mariner
It's crazy how everyone is pointing fingers at Portnoy here...am I missing something? Did Portnoy rule the band or something the last 3-4 years before they finally found a way to get rid of him?
Mike wanted to do other things, take a break. Rest of the band didn't...wanted to keep going, which led to his departure...Mike got to work with Avenged Sevenfold, got his wish, DT wanted to push on, got their wish.
Mike wanted to do other things, take a break. Rest of the band didn't...wanted to keep going, which led to his departure...Mike got to work with Avenged Sevenfold, got his wish, DT wanted to push on, got their wish.
Last edited:
SixesAlltheway
Ancient Mariner
Quite possible they all thought this was a good idea. I really can't believe a whole band was holding back their opinion if everyone else truly thought it was a shit idea. A drummer doesn't just decide to do back-up vocals, and carry it out, on his own, without the consent of the other band members.
Anyways, DT might not have liked playing with him anymore, who knows, and saw his branching out as a way to get rid of him...but those late albums were DT albums, not Portnoy albums.
MrKnickerbocker
clap hands
Portnoy was de-facto manager of the band, I sincerely believe that the other guys went along with him on some things they didn't entirely want to do for the sake of the band. When they saw an opportunity to get rid of him, they took it.
JudasMyGuide
Ancient Mariner
Am I already drunk or has it really been seven years?
However, Portnoy - for all his faults - was definitely the one who held them a bit down to earth ("eat my ass and balls"). We'll probably agree upon that one
EDIT: Also, the question's fair - I became a fan in 07 with some overlap with 06, how about you?
However, Portnoy - for all his faults - was definitely the one who held them a bit down to earth ("eat my ass and balls"). We'll probably agree upon that one
EDIT: Also, the question's fair - I became a fan in 07 with some overlap with 06, how about you?
Last edited:
SixesAlltheway
Ancient Mariner
I first heard DT in 1999 with the Scenes release. Which was a big album at the time,..A big concept metal album of that magnitude was pretty unheard of. Truly a mind blowing metal album at the time.
Collin
Chasing Ponce De Leon's Phantoms
The overall song quality has dropped without him. He was a very good writer. Petrucci does alright, but there's no question that Portnoy helped the band immensely when it came to songs. He was that heavy edge that sent DT over the top. A Dramatic Turn of Events was good but everything else has been below subpar without him. He needs to come back and save this band!That's all on @Collin though..
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
However, Portnoy - for all his faults - was definitely the one who held them a bit down to earth ("eat my ass and balls"). We'll probably agree upon that one
That's a good assessment. One difference I get from comparing Portnoy era and Post-Portnoy era is that the band became more "methodical". They were still a very technical band and did a lot of wankery in their music, but current DT comes off more as a "group of proficient technicians" than a "great prog metal band" to me.
Detective Beauregard
Leviathan of Doggerland
I think Portnoy as a drummer fit Dream Theater better than Mangini does because he played with more passion. His energy and eccentric nature actually made the music a bit more interesting to me. However, as a songwriter and lyricist, he was getting VERY stale and it was clear that the band needed A New Beginning (har har). Those Portnoy vocals were getting way out of hand...
It started with Glass Prison, the first DT song I fell in love with just months after the album was released. I became a huge fan of their back catalog at that point and wondered how I had never heard of the band before. But while his barking vocals on that song were fresh at the time, they soon became stale. I can't deny that Train of Thought is one of my favorite DT albums (with the only part I dislike being some of the Endless Sacrifice instrumental), but Portnoy's childish lyrics on a few of the songs became irritating.
After Train of Thought I wondered how they'd ever top it, and honestly the only album I think that has even come close is DT12. Octavarium was practically a cover album, Systematic Chaos was somewhat enjoyable but suffered from MMS (Masturbating Monkeys in Space) syndrome, Black Clouds is a candidate for their weakest album by far, and Dramatic -- while easily the strongest effort at its time since Train of Thought -- suffered from too much ill-timed wank and no clear direction (although I still think the last two tracks are gems).
Then came DT12, which doesn't seem to get a whole lot of love around here. It's in my top 3 for sure, and to me has no filler whatsoever aside from some sections of Illumination Theory (which aren't really filler, but I don't think they fit). Maybe it's because I was in a difficult life situation when it was released, but I think DT12 is an amazing album with more feeling and groove than they've had since the pre-Jordan days. The Astonishing isn't my cup of tea but I must admit that it is well-done, and respect the band's decision to try something radically different.
As for the drumming, I can honestly say that nothing Mangini has done outside of maybe a few parts in Breaking All Illusions has caught my attention. Now if you ask me what Portnoy has done drumming-wise that I think is interesting, I could talk for hours. Aside from Jason Rullo of Symphony X, I don't think I've heard a drummer who has written more interesting and off-time yet still catchy drum parts. But does that mean I think he could fit in Dream Theater again? Absolutely not.
It started with Glass Prison, the first DT song I fell in love with just months after the album was released. I became a huge fan of their back catalog at that point and wondered how I had never heard of the band before. But while his barking vocals on that song were fresh at the time, they soon became stale. I can't deny that Train of Thought is one of my favorite DT albums (with the only part I dislike being some of the Endless Sacrifice instrumental), but Portnoy's childish lyrics on a few of the songs became irritating.
After Train of Thought I wondered how they'd ever top it, and honestly the only album I think that has even come close is DT12. Octavarium was practically a cover album, Systematic Chaos was somewhat enjoyable but suffered from MMS (Masturbating Monkeys in Space) syndrome, Black Clouds is a candidate for their weakest album by far, and Dramatic -- while easily the strongest effort at its time since Train of Thought -- suffered from too much ill-timed wank and no clear direction (although I still think the last two tracks are gems).
Then came DT12, which doesn't seem to get a whole lot of love around here. It's in my top 3 for sure, and to me has no filler whatsoever aside from some sections of Illumination Theory (which aren't really filler, but I don't think they fit). Maybe it's because I was in a difficult life situation when it was released, but I think DT12 is an amazing album with more feeling and groove than they've had since the pre-Jordan days. The Astonishing isn't my cup of tea but I must admit that it is well-done, and respect the band's decision to try something radically different.
As for the drumming, I can honestly say that nothing Mangini has done outside of maybe a few parts in Breaking All Illusions has caught my attention. Now if you ask me what Portnoy has done drumming-wise that I think is interesting, I could talk for hours. Aside from Jason Rullo of Symphony X, I don't think I've heard a drummer who has written more interesting and off-time yet still catchy drum parts. But does that mean I think he could fit in Dream Theater again? Absolutely not.
MrKnickerbocker
clap hands
@Detective Beauregard summed up my exact thoughts on DT's recent albums, even if I like Mike Mangini more than he does.
MrKnickerbocker
clap hands
Also, John Petrucci continuing to prove his masculinity by holding a 5KG solid steel hammer:
Apparently he holds the record so far. Because, of course he does.
Apparently he holds the record so far. Because, of course he does.
MrKnickerbocker
clap hands
Yeah, clearly filmed a long time ago.
The way DT typically writes music is by jamming together, that's why they've always credited it to the whole band (except The Astonishing). The dynamic between MP, JP, and JR was that JP and JR composed the actual music while MP acted more as an arranger, coming up with things like the structure of the songs. He may have influenced the musical direction to some degree, but I don't think any of the post MP albums have been a huge departure, so maybe his influence wasn't as big as we thought. The songs sometimes have a weird form by not having that MP stamp, but that doesn't really affect things like the riffs and melodies, all those still sound like DT. MP's biggest influence was probably in some of the heavier material, but I also think they likely deliberately took a step away from the heaviness to play it safe with the prog fans (not to mention copying the ADTOE structures, which no doubt they did). They still have songs like Illumination Theory and The Enemy Inside, which really wouldn't be all that out of place on the other Roadrunner albums with MP. They also played The Shattered Fortress live, so they clearly aren't disowning that side of the band.
The things I miss most from MP are more behind the scenes stuff: the official bootlegs, the tour diaries, the rotating setlists, etc. As far as the setlists go, The Astonishing obviously had to be played in full and the DT12 setlist was so solid that there wasn't much room to change it up, although they could've messed with the first set I guess. ADTOE is the only one that could've used more rotation, but they did change it up a bit so who knows what they'll do going forward.
I also think that post MP DT albums feel a lot less unified. With the obvious exception of The Astonishing, they have just felt like a collection of songs. I miss the way the songs connected on the old albums and there was always a thematic thing going on. DT12 was an improvement on ADTOE as far as that goes, so I hope they try to get that back a bit on the next one.
The things I miss most from MP are more behind the scenes stuff: the official bootlegs, the tour diaries, the rotating setlists, etc. As far as the setlists go, The Astonishing obviously had to be played in full and the DT12 setlist was so solid that there wasn't much room to change it up, although they could've messed with the first set I guess. ADTOE is the only one that could've used more rotation, but they did change it up a bit so who knows what they'll do going forward.
I also think that post MP DT albums feel a lot less unified. With the obvious exception of The Astonishing, they have just felt like a collection of songs. I miss the way the songs connected on the old albums and there was always a thematic thing going on. DT12 was an improvement on ADTOE as far as that goes, so I hope they try to get that back a bit on the next one.
MrKnickerbocker
clap hands
I'm alright with the songs being a little more standalone, especially in the wake of The Astonishing. And honestly, I think DT12 was the most unified the band has sounded since Train of Thought.
The behind-the-scenes stuff is certainly at a loss without Portnoy, and I do miss that.
The behind-the-scenes stuff is certainly at a loss without Portnoy, and I do miss that.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
with Devon Graves, Heather Findlay, Eric Clayton, Ed Warbie, Jeroen Goossens, Johan Van Stratum, Irene Houkes-Jansen, Magnus Ekwall, Anneke Van Giersbergen, James Labrie, Marcela Bovio, Jermain van der Bogt, Mike Toehider, Marcel Coenen, Ben Mathot, Maaike Cellist Peterse, Lisette Marije, Katinka Van Der Harst, Jose Gallardo, Radina Dimcheva, Els Prins, Jan Willem Ketelaers, Lori A. Linstruth, Brett Caldas-Lima, Pieter Kop, Joost Van Den Broek, Dick Zwart, Leon Dona, Ruth En Petra Jochems and Laura Guldemond.
+
Last edited: