Dream Theater

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I'll skip this one, full album is right around the corner. I'd rather hear it all in context anyway.

Saapanael said:
I went for a lurk on the DT forum today and found out that most people think of Black Clouds as one of their worst albums. I for one love it and honestly can't see why it is not received better. Can someone enlighten me?
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I don't hate the album, I think it's more middle of the road for them, but I definitely recognize its flaws. I think the biggest issue is that it's very long winded, lots of overly long instrumental sections that seemingly go nowhere. Extended solos from both JP and JR that sound very uninspired. My favorite example is A Nightmare To Remember. Great song for the first half, all the way up to the Beautiful Agony section (one of the best moments in the whole DT catalog), and then it just takes a nosedive from there. Bland riffing + bland solos makes me wonder if they forced it to be a really long song. A lot of people also complain about MP's cookie monster vocal thing but that doesn't really bother me. But this issue comes up in a lot of the songs, Rite of Passage also has a long winded instrumental section (although JP at least has a few more interesting ideas for that song) and The Shattered Fortress could also probably use a bit of trimming. Every minute of TCOT is perfect though IMO.

A lot of people (especially on DTF) really go after the lyrics too. I don't think this breaks the album, but there are quite a few silly lyrical moments. Especially from JP on ANTR and TCOT. TBOT also gets its fair share of mockery. I think JP had good ideas for all 3 songs, but just like the previous album he failed to execute them properly. Which is what has me worried about this new concept album (from a lyrical stand point). Also not one of JLB's finest hours.

It's also one of DT's heavier albums and I don't think DT's heavier side goes down well with the general audience. And admittedly, they're not very good at it. ToT was a bit of an anomaly with that and their heavier stuff before that worked pretty well too. But once they started to try keeping up with the newer Metal bands it didn't really work as well. There's some good things there, like MP doing blast beats was cool, but MP doing cookie monster vocals not so much. And that heavier sound just doesn't gel with JLB and JR has no idea what to do there. To me it's usually pretty bland, if they're going to take contemporary influences (Which I'm all for) I'd rather them look outside of Metal for that.

I think the fact that it's only 6 songs doesn't help either. If there's one song you dislike, unless it's Wither, that ends up being a huge chunk of the album. And unlike Six Degrees, it mainly sticks to one sound so there's less variety within the songs. If you dislike what they're doing on ANTR, there isn't much hope for the rest of the album.

All that aside, I still like about half of it. TCOT is awesome, TBOT has an epic guitar solo at the end, and (as I said earlier) about half of ANTR is really good. The Shattered Fortress drags the album down where its placed I think, but on its own and as a conclusion to the 12 Step Suite I think it's pretty satisfying.
 
Saapanael said:
I went for a lurk on the DT forum today and found out that most people think of Black Clouds as one of their worst albums. I for one love it and honestly can't see why it is not received better. Can someone enlighten me?
Click to expand...

I think it's for similar reasons as Systematic - too heavy and too heavy on the so called "wanking side", Portnoy's "tough" vocals...

As for the songs themselves, everybody seems to dislike ANTR, but for the love of God I don't know why, I guess it's the combination of long instrumental parts -> blastbeats -> harsh vocals.

Rite gets a lot of flak because of the lyrics and the Bebot solo (which I actually somewhat like - as someone who sat through all of Zappa's discography and various other weirdos, I can definitely appreciate that idea "if atonal, then at least short"). Overal, the song is just great and catchy, so I don't get it.

I think the hate for Wither is pretty self-explanatory. It's the same as Answer, Forsaken, Walk Beside... people think it's too simple and too catchy. You know, the "radio song".
Maybe also because it borrows the intro from Lifting Shadows, however I have not yet met anyone saying this specifically.

Shattered Fortress - some questionable lyrical choices ("INVENTORY!") that make sense in context but not taken alone, re-using a lot of older riffs and melodies from the rest of the 12 Step Suite seems to be the main problem. I actually like the idea, but some take it as a shameless self-plagiarism.

TBOT - I don't know. People seem to dislike it, but I'm not sure why. Too sentimental, maybe? I don't know, beats me.

At least most people agree that Count is great, however some still complain about the "silly" lyrics and your usual "Portnoy's tough vocals".

But mainly the combination of too much metal and too much "wankery" + maybe the fact it's actually very similar to Systematic.

Bear in mind that I'm just trying to explain - I love the album dearly.
It's mainly the classic debate "old" vs. "new" Dream Theater, "Moore" vs. "Rudess", "feeling" vs. "wanking", how much metal are you willing to tolerate/enjoy etc. Since my favourite album is SC, I guess it's obvious where I stand... however I think people like me are the minority here.

Just like in Maiden, there's a living, breathing "Play Classics" crowd of people who like mostly only Images and Words, Awake and Scenes. Maybe not even on DTF (there's a lot of people liking pretty much every album bar WDADU there, similar to the situation here concerning Maiden), but the overall DT fandom/general public probably feels that way mostly. Or so it seemed to me.

EDIT: Didn't see the Mosh's response, sorry. :D
 
Good melodies on that new track's chorus. Maidenish as in e.g. Gates of Tomorrow.

The Astonishing sounds pretentious for an album title.
 
Saapanael said:
I went for a lurk on the DT forum today and found out that most people think of Black Clouds as one of their worst albums. I for one love it and honestly can't see why it is not received better. Can someone enlighten me?
Click to expand...

I think that it's their weakest, along with Octavarium.

Portnoy's "tuf guy" vocals and the 12 minutes of Glass Prison regurgitation really bring the whole thing down for me. Wither and Tuscany are probably the two best tracks here, although I think Rite is somewhat decent and dig the Opeth parts in Nightmare. As a whole, the album isn't bad -- but there's just something about it that keeps it from being among even their most average material. Maybe it's the Portnoy-driven aggression that was beginning to really show here.
 
Saapanael said:
I went for a lurk on the DT forum today and found out that most people think of Black Clouds as one of their worst albums. I for one love it and honestly can't see why it is not received better. Can someone enlighten me?
Click to expand...

It's not my least favorite album from them (Systematic Chaos). But it's the only DT album that I don't keep on my library because there isn't a single song on there that I go back to listen to from time to time. Systematic Chaos has "The Dark Eternal Night", When Dream and Day Unite has "Ytse Jam" and "Afterlife".

Nightmare to Remember is cringeworthy after the first parts.
Rite of Passage features my favorite riffs and melodies on the album but Rudess ruins the track halfway by masturbating on it.
Wither is pretty forgettable.
Shattered Fortress is just a reworking off the same stuff.
Best of Times tends to stray towards the "too sentimental" road for me and tends to come off cheesy.
Not a big Count of Tuscany fan, I think it's way too long without enough exciting material.
 
Can this be compared with the kind of criticism Janick has had over the years. "I love Maiden, but I can't stand Janick's playing".
Isn't Rudess an integral part of Dream Theater (as Gers is to Maiden), since 1999(!)? The DT sound consists of his input (and that includes leads).
Remove such input and you will have another band.
 
Forostar said:
Can this be compared with the kind of criticism Janick has had over the years. "I love Maiden, but I can't stand Janick's playing".
Isn't Rudess an integral part of Dream Theater (as Gers is to Maiden), since 1999(!)? The DT sound consists of his input (and that includes leads).
Remove such input and you will have another band.
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Yeah, but most of the people saying that (not necessarily Det., just overall) are the people who like mostly only their older stuff anyway, so it's the same as the "play classics" crowd with Maiden ("how dare they play the whole AMOLAD and no TNOTB? Gers butchers H's solos!")...

Quote from a different corner of the internet

"I love Iron Maiden (especially everything from before the 1993'ish time period).

...But, that Janick Gers has GOTS TA' GO! :mad:

They have Adrian Smith back. WHY? WHY? Just... WHY?

Nothing is worse than seeing them live and he plays the Adrian Smith solos and totally butchers them. It's like, "Dude! Pick a f%cking key! ANY key!" He just goes, "BloopityBlippityBlooBlaBli!!!" as fast as he can. No sense of melody or rhythm to his solos. No regard for the way it was originaly played. And, that stupid thing he does where he stands really straight and holds the guitar up towards the ceiling as he plays the solo. I can't stand it. I mean, Adrian is standing right --- there! Why do they need that guy? The leads that he butchers far outweigh the few moments where it's beneficial in any way to have the third guitar. And, not only do we have to suffer through his leads... But, it also means that we have fewer solos to hear Adrian (the best and most interesting guitarist in the band) play."

Same goes for Rudess/Moore. Just for the record, I can't stand Moore. I don't like him as a lyricist, musician... but most people seem genuinely obsessed with him and/or the albums he played on.
 
Forostar said:
Can this be compared with the kind of criticism Janick has had over the years. "I love Maiden, but I can't stand Janick's playing".
Isn't Rudess an integral part of Dream Theater (as Gers is to Maiden), since 1999(!)? The DT sound consists of his input (and that includes leads).
Remove such input and you will have another band.
Click to expand...

I think it's very similar in nature. The difference being that when Janick plays a solo it usually lasts for a maximum of 30-40 seconds. When Rudess plays a solo, it often derails the mood or theme of the song for a good 3-4 minutes.
 
But people who dislike that are still following (every step?) the band (takes). Eagerly waiting for someone's resignation? :D
 
Sure, because when he does something tasteful, it's phenomenal. It just doesn't happen that often. And one member's contributions will not make me write off a band unless they are glaringly upfront (basically only a bad lead singer). I like Petrucci, Myung, LaBrie, and Mangini enough to forgive the occasional Rudess wank, but I wouldn't be sad to see him go in favor of a more restrained player.
 
I agree with Judas that the Rudess thing is closer to the PlayClassics crowd than the people who don't like Janick, mostly because of when Rudess joined the band. You can split Dream Theater into two rough eras: pre Rudess and post Rudess, with Scenes as a sort of in between album. Just like you have fans who only like 80s Maiden. The only difference is that I think Rudess has had a much larger influence in DT's direction since joining than anybody has in Maiden apart from Steve. I remember seeing an interview with JP where he said that having Rudess around makes him want to do more technical instrumental sections. The guitar/keyboard unison went from being something that elevated an already pretty great song to an almost obligatory staple.

But there is definitely a similarity with the Janick thing. If you like everything in a Maiden/DT song except Janick/JR's solo (which I find often to be the case for me with both players), then it's something that can easily be ignored. Doesn't break the rest of the band.

I really loved JR on DT12 btw. He did quite a bit more with acoustic piano sounds and used keyboards more for texture/atmosphere. I wouldn't mind if they bumped up his role a little bit in The Astonishing, as long as he contributes to the music more in that way again.
 
Rudess' only truly great work with DT was Six Degrees. Great textures, atmospheres, soloing that actually sounds exciting. He had some bright moments on Scenes as well.

I'll take Moore over Rudess in DT any day of the week. Moore excelled at textures, his work on Awake is stunning. Outside of DT, Rudess is the superior musician. He's brilliant in Liquid Tension Experiment. (Though, OSI is also pretty damn good).
 
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