Dream Theater

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Mosh said:
In general, this really feels like the Petrucci and Rudess show. I read on the booklet that the music was written by JP and JR. This is the first time the music isn't credited to Dream Theater. I'm wondering if the other 3 guys were involved at all in the writing, especially Myung and Mangini definitely take a back seat compared to the last two albums.
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A popular prog band gets "hijacked" by its most amitious member
+ with less and less input from the rest of the guys
+ releases a conceptual double album
+ which is really heavy on the story
+ with some undeniable musical inspiration
+ almost without the long instrumental passages the band was famous for
+ where most songs don't work that well outside the context?

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:ninja:
 
JudasMyGuide said:
I respectfully disagree. This is anything but your standard DT. Whether it's good or bad, I don't know yet, but whether "recent DT" means BCSL-DT12 or SDOIT-DT12, there's nothing really similar, I give them that. In fact, I believe this is as far from typical DT as possible for it to be still considered "their" album.
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Fair enough. It sounded awfully similar when I was browsing the tracks but I guess I won't understand your point fully until I actually listen to the entire album :)
 
I love Three Days. Ravenskill has a really, really good part as well.

Brace yourself, bow down to Nefaryus...
 
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I really like the end of A New Beginning (not so much the first half) and The Gift of Music. Lots of cool stuff happening in Three Days as well.
 
Mosh said:
I really like the end of A New Beginning (not so much the first half) and The Gift of Music. Lots of cool stuff happening in Three Days as well.
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My main irritation with A New Beginning is the whole "bug" part. Most annoying part of the whole album for me.

Does anyone else feel Moment of Betrayal is the most "traditional" song on the album? It always stands out to me because it feels like less of a departure than the rest of the music.
 
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The bug thing reminds me of my biggest gripe with the album so far: there are vital bits of the story that are just missing. If you go to the DTF discussion on the album you'll notice people are asking a lot of (valid) questions about the story and they're almost all answered with "it's on the website". It kinda reminds me of the way some things went unexplained in the Star Wars prequels and the answer was to read the books. The album assumes that everyone listening is going to go check out the write up on every song on the internet. It's good that JP left some things open for interpretation or outside explanation, I think that's the sort of thing that makes for strong world building, but you can't pay off a mystery that was never presented to the audience in the first place like that. There are a few parts of the story that don't make any sense without reading the stuff on the website, which shouldn't be the case for a story this simple.
 
Mosh said:
The bug thing reminds me of my biggest gripe with the album so far: there are vital bits of the story that are just missing. If you go to the DTF discussion on the album you'll notice people are asking a lot of (valid) questions about the story and they're almost all answered with "it's on the website". It kinda reminds me of the way some things went unexplained in the Star Wars prequels and the answer was to read the books. The album assumes that everyone listening is going to go check out the write up on every song on the internet. It's good that JP left some things open for interpretation or outside explanation, I think that's the sort of thing that makes for strong world building, but you can't pay off a mystery that was never presented to the audience in the first place like that. There are a few parts of the story that don't make any sense without reading the stuff on the website, which shouldn't be the case for a story this simple.
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I am less worried about the vital parts of the story left out (because I feel it still makes sense to listen to as it is) - that line just irritates me. I can deal with cheese (as said, Three Days is a contender for my favourite song even though I feel you could fit it into so many Disney films without it feeling out of place) but that line is just too much, even for me. I did notice the "read it on the website" crowd when I googled what on earth the line was supposed to mean though.
 
I think I know what you're talking about, because I get that vibe from several lines on the album. I don't think it's cheesy though, more that it works better as dialog than lyrics. I think there are a few moments where JP had a hard time progressing the story a bit more creatively than just straight exposition. "Bug" is one of them.

Anyway I'm currently on my 3rd listen.
 
Btw, I think A Better Life might be the best example of furthering the story while still being musically interesting. I love all the twists and turns it takes, as well as how dynamic it is. Plus it tells us pretty much everything we need to know about Arhys, probably the most developed/interesting character on the album IMO.
 
Mosh said:
Btw, I think A Better Life might be the best example of furthering the story while still being musically interesting. I love all the twists and turns it takes, as well as how dynamic it is. Plus it tells us pretty much everything we need to know about Arhys, probably the most developed/interesting character on the album IMO.
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At the same time I think it's important twists aren't too sudden.

Best example for me is Lord Nefaryus - specifically when it very suddenly switches to "Arabella means the world to me" it feels very forced compared to a lot of the album.

Whilst I have these niggles with the first act more (presumably because of the greater amount of exposition there) I do prefer the first act. The entire run starting from " A Saviour in the Square" and ending in "The X Aspect" is stellar.
 
DJMayes said:
Best example for me is Lord Nefaryus - specifically when it very suddenly switches to "Arabella means the world to me" it feels very forced compared to a lot of the album.
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I disagree, it establishes that Nefaryus is more than a one dimensional bad guy (despite the stupid name).

It also helps me buy his turn to good later on. It isn't a sudden shift but something they build up to, with the seeds being planted as soon as the character is introduced. That was well done IMO.

Either way, they've got me talking about the story, I really didn't expect to be that interested. So I have to give them credit for that.

I agree that Act I is the best, so far II isn't clicking with me. We'll see if third time is a charm.
 
Ok so the album is starting to click more, here's some pros/cons after 3 listens:

PROS:
  • More natural piano sounds and the keyboard work is a lot more tasteful, continuing the direction of DT12 just like I hoped.
  • Production is good, like almost every DT album there are flaws but nothing that ruins the album.
  • The recurring themes, I love how the major characters have their own themes.
  • The Disney stuff
  • It feels like an actual opera/musical. The presentation, structure, everything.
  • JP's solo on A New Beginning. One of his best ever.
  • The dynamics. This was a common criticism of DT12, pretty much the entire album was loud and in your face. Personally I liked this, especially juxtaposed with the few softer moments (Illumination Theory and the ending of The Bigger Picture stand out the most for me), but I'm glad they're playing more with dynamics again. I can see how it feels ballad heavy at first, but I definitely don't feel that way after a few more listens. More that it has softer moments to create drama, it's operatic. It's still a heavy album for the most part, just more I&W heavy than Train of Thought heavy.
  • JLB's flamboyant style actually services the music this time. He does well in a more dramatic sort of role.
  • They're doing something different. The last time we saw DT really go left field was probably Octavarium and that wasn't anywhere near as left field as some of the stuff on this album for them. The swing section with the blast beats at the end of Three Days? If you told me three years ago that DT was going to do something like that I would've thought you were crazy. Plus the almost complete lack of overly technical instrumental sections, they showed serious restraint on this. Also proves DT12 was a necessary stepping stone for this album, they were already playing with conciseness on that album, but this makes even DT12 look like a total wankfest in comparison.
  • A lot of it is memorable/catchy.
  • Very few pointless interludes. Many of the tracks that act more as interludes are actually pretty enjoyable, like The Answer.
  • The "Christmas" outro in Begin Again.
  • The all orchestra sections.
CONS:
  • The NOMACS are totally non existent. Now I'm going to give the band the benefit of the doubt and assume the NOMACs are meant as more of a visual component and will be an important part of the live show/whatever other visual addition to this they make. I wish they had a bit more involvement on the actual album though, it's a cool idea.
  • Mangini and JM took a vacation while recording this. I'm especially meh on Mangini's performance. I think after three albums it'd be safe to say I don't like him in the band. He seems like a really nice guy and he's very technically skilled, but that doesn't really mean anything when hardly anything he plays resonates with me. DT12 was a bit better but we're back to the unremarkable performances akin to ADTOE and this time he doesn't have the excuse of coming in late in the writing game.*
  • The story flaws I mentioned already in other posts.
  • The vocal melodies have always been a bit of a weak spot for DT and while a lot of them are really good on this album, this flaw in their writing is more apparent on this album than usual for obvious reasons. The weaker moments stand out more.
  • Choir could've been better utilized, I'm still disappointed there weren't many more moments like the choir entrance in The Gift of Music.
  • Disc 2 still kinda loses me, both with the story and the music. It falls into the same trap that most double concept albums do: focus on music gets lost and it turns into a rushed attempt at furthering the story. The Wall has this issue too in pretty much the exact same spot. There's still some good stuff though and it's slowly growing on me. The Entr'acte really clicked with me during this listen.
  • The scream thing at the end of My Last Farewell.
  • No real conflict between Ravenskill Militia and GNE, it mostly comes down to 4 characters, which is fine but I think the story could've been told on a much grander scale. Maybe have some sort of battle and then resolve the conflict in the amphitheater.
  • The grand finale isn't as grand as it could be. Maybe it's my fault for expecting every finale to a concept album to be as powerful as Finally Free, but with an album like this I don't think it's too much to ask for. I like the last track and how it wraps up the themes and story in a very broadway sort of way, but this is still DT. They wrote the book on epic finales. Not sure how they dropped the ball on this one.
Overall, I enjoy the album. It's long but it doesn't feel dragged out. I find it especially impressive that they were able to do something like this as their 13th album, this is the sort of thing you'd expect much earlier in a career. Not sure how it'll rank for me overall, but I could see it being top 5. Kind of hard to compare it to anything else they've done though, it's totally different. Can't wait to see it live.
 
I don't mind the bug. It made me snigger, true, but didn't offend me.

The only cringeworthy line I remember was something about how he promised his son a better life because of the wife who would not survive...

Currently on my second listen and I like it much more. Funnily enough, when not reading the lyrics (thus not concentrating on the fact it's so story-driven), the album sounds much more like your regular Dream Theater. And I still think the "second act" (second half of Act I, 11-20) is a bit drowned in the ballads a bit.

Three Days and Overture are still highlights, while Ravenskill still bores me. However, just as I predicted, already with the second listen I enjoy even the ballads more.
 
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I checked out most of the tracks, can't bring myself to listen to the album in its entirety, honestly. But I'll do it one of these days.
 
I can't even begin to wrap my head around this album yet, but so far the groove at the end of A New Beginning is one of the catchiest things I've ever heard the band do. It's sad that it's one of the only Myung parts that stood out to me, though.

Petrucci and Rudess writing this album in full is not something I expected nor wanted.
 
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