Saapanael
Ancient Mariner
Kevin Shirley wasn't on A Dramatic Turn of Events, Andy Wallace did the mixing. Or did you mean FII?
I disagree. I'm not saying anything about Nicko's drumming, I'm talking about the production which is uneven af.
Diesel 11
As you scream into the web of silence...
Right, that’s why I said his drumming sounds massive. Also you like the Images and Words drum sound and every time I hear it it sounds so lifeless and clinical and cold.
JudasMyGuide
The resident reactionary recalcitrant
Wut? I genuinely didn't know such people existed. I mean, the Images and Words drum sound probably doesn't like the Images and Words drum sound.
Saapanael
Ancient Mariner
Since we’re talking drum sounds, one of the things I’ve missed about DT is having that Portnoy drum sound, let’s say from Scenes up to Black Clouds. His kit sounds really organic on those albums and I like it more than really “modern metal” sounding drums like we’ve heard on the Mangini albums. Compare Train of Thought with the self-titled album for a sharp contrast. I don’t necessarily expect this classic Portnoy sound to come back now that he’s returned, because production standards might have changed in the meantime and everything sounds kind of similar in newer metal albums, but it would be refreshing for sure.
JudasMyGuide
The resident reactionary recalcitrant
I agree. Also, although I was never a part of the "bring Portnoy back" crowd, I'll give him credit where it's due - although there are IMHO "better" drummers, either overall (Bruford, Barlow, Mangini or even Collins in the 70s) or in the particular shtick they do (Nicko, Michael Shrieve, Airto), Portnoy is definitely one of the most "fun" and captivating drummers I've ever known.
I may dislike his personality - as it used to come across - I may think he has no quality control and not everything he's giving his attention is worth it - and he'll never be able to play stuff Mangini did, to be honest, but he's the drummer to make you want to play air drums. He's the drummer to make you want to at least consider taking up drums.
In that regard he may be my favourite drummer (well, at least after Bruford), because I've been toying with taking up drums for the past 8 years mainly because of him.
There's just something to air-drumming along to The Test That Stumped Them All and having the time of your life.
And I'd say that the sound is a part of it - like I said, I dislike the cold, artificial sound of IandW, but beginning with Awake, which still has some issues - the drums still sound a tad too cold and "fake", but it's incomparably better - the drums are "juicy". You want to bite into them and chew on them. You want to cuddle with them. To me that's partially Portnoy's... "swagger" and "feel" (fuck, I hate that word), but also the sound.
JudasMyGuide
The resident reactionary recalcitrant
Also - and this is only marginally connected with the "sound" issue I wrote above, so I'm putting this into a separate post - I have once again given a spin to Awake today, since it's such a fan favourite and I'm the traitor for having it relatively low in my ranking...
...and my problems are still exactly the same. The production is a bit dated (more on that below), but it's not really a problem - most of the time.
In fact, the first 6 tracks - up to the end of A Mind Beside Itself - are one of the better DT sequences overall and if the entire album was like this, it would be quite possibly my favourite 90s album (yes, possibly even edging out SFAM) and quite possibly in my top 5 or something.
It's amazing, almost flawless, actually. But then...
The "Mirror-Lie" combo is kinda okay, but more "meh" than anything - the first song doesn't know whether it wants to be heavy or atmospheric, it's ridiculously hollow melodically and quotes SDV (more on that later)... Lie is marginally better, but LaBrie is kinda terrible here - from the Sprechgesang at the beginning (though it's something I commended Paramore for in the past - but quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi, as they say... not that Paramore are any type of deity, but I'd much rather hear the edgier redhead to talk-sing to me, thank you very much) to the incredibly redneck-sounding (?) chorus to the "Mother Mary what-ev-ery", it's just incredibly annoying and I'm one of the bigger LaBrie apologists in general, I'd say.
Also, throughout both of these songs (and probably elsewhere, but here it's where I couldn't overlook it) Moore uses some really vile keyboard sounds - I mean, it's pretty ghastly, people complain about Rudess and his "ants-twitching", but Moore sounds very dated and is actually distracting in his choices - and it's a pity, because purely as a keyboardist, he's really good.
Then you get Lifting Shadows, which - besides some more terrible key effects in the beginning - is just... awkward. The harmonic switch in the chorus, the overall buildup... I undestand that it's that type of song that is rather bold in a way and either you're a fan or you're not ... and usually I probably would be, I like the overall style in theory - but the execution... there's just something off here for me.
Scarred has a great beginning - the bluesy guitar is awesome - but as a whole it's a jumbled, disjointed, irrational mess; it's like putting this pile of dissected limbs and eviscerated torsos in front of someone and "hey, it's those 5 people you asked for".
A lot of prog-metal bands used to have this problem early in their discography (or later, in fact, for example Seventh Wonder had their biggest "disjointed ideas without any logic" mostly only about the Great Escape era), but this is definitely an example. Compared to Voices... eh...
And then the album ends on the seven and a half minutes Space-Dye Vest and it's one of the only (maybe in fact the only one) DT tracks that I just can't stand.
Like I said before
It's just ... icky. Unpleasant. Foul.
Anyway, like I said, I tried.
...and my problems are still exactly the same. The production is a bit dated (more on that below), but it's not really a problem - most of the time.
In fact, the first 6 tracks - up to the end of A Mind Beside Itself - are one of the better DT sequences overall and if the entire album was like this, it would be quite possibly my favourite 90s album (yes, possibly even edging out SFAM) and quite possibly in my top 5 or something.
It's amazing, almost flawless, actually. But then...
The "Mirror-Lie" combo is kinda okay, but more "meh" than anything - the first song doesn't know whether it wants to be heavy or atmospheric, it's ridiculously hollow melodically and quotes SDV (more on that later)... Lie is marginally better, but LaBrie is kinda terrible here - from the Sprechgesang at the beginning (though it's something I commended Paramore for in the past - but quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi, as they say... not that Paramore are any type of deity, but I'd much rather hear the edgier redhead to talk-sing to me, thank you very much) to the incredibly redneck-sounding (?) chorus to the "Mother Mary what-ev-ery", it's just incredibly annoying and I'm one of the bigger LaBrie apologists in general, I'd say.
Also, throughout both of these songs (and probably elsewhere, but here it's where I couldn't overlook it) Moore uses some really vile keyboard sounds - I mean, it's pretty ghastly, people complain about Rudess and his "ants-twitching", but Moore sounds very dated and is actually distracting in his choices - and it's a pity, because purely as a keyboardist, he's really good.
Then you get Lifting Shadows, which - besides some more terrible key effects in the beginning - is just... awkward. The harmonic switch in the chorus, the overall buildup... I undestand that it's that type of song that is rather bold in a way and either you're a fan or you're not ... and usually I probably would be, I like the overall style in theory - but the execution... there's just something off here for me.
Scarred has a great beginning - the bluesy guitar is awesome - but as a whole it's a jumbled, disjointed, irrational mess; it's like putting this pile of dissected limbs and eviscerated torsos in front of someone and "hey, it's those 5 people you asked for".
A lot of prog-metal bands used to have this problem early in their discography (or later, in fact, for example Seventh Wonder had their biggest "disjointed ideas without any logic" mostly only about the Great Escape era), but this is definitely an example. Compared to Voices... eh...
And then the album ends on the seven and a half minutes Space-Dye Vest and it's one of the only (maybe in fact the only one) DT tracks that I just can't stand.
Like I said before
It's just ... icky. Unpleasant. Foul.
Anyway, like I said, I tried.
Ascendingthethrone
Ancient Mariner
His incredible talent aside, I was never a fan of Portnoy’s personality. Everything was just a bit much. Hopefully he has chilled out a bit in the last 13 years.
It seems like has chilled out - I imagine that has made it possible for the band to welcome him back into the fold. It also seems highly likely that his role in the band has been negotiated in advance and he agreed that he wouldn’t have as much decision making power as before, which seems like a huge thing considering his personality.
Personally I actually liked the DT12 drum sound, I know it’s an unpopular opinion but I liked the oomph of the drums better than when they lacked definition on ADTOE or The Astonishing. I also liked the playing and felt like that was the closest Mangini got to bringing his personal style to the band. ADTOE obviously was him interpreting Petrucci’s demos and then The Astonishing was once again working under the confines of prior written music although he did have some cool moments. I would have to listen to the last two albums more to have an informed opinion, neither of them really did anything for me.
There has been a bit of a mixed reaction online about how the Mangini situation was handled. It seems like potentially a Blaze Bayley type of thing where he was let go out of nowhere and maybe blindsided by the whole thing. One thing that has come up a lot that I am curious about is whether Mangini was really intended to be an interim drummer until the band got Portnoy back. It’s hard to tell. I remember seeing them on the Distance Over Time tour and by then it really felt like Mangini had settled into his role a bit. We were also starting to get past the point where I was really expecting a Portnoy reunion to happen (although once he started appearing with them again I knew it was inevitable). At the same time though, Mangini’s selection over other drummers is starting to make a lot of sense in retrospect. Of all the drummers they auditioned he best fit the “caretaker” role and was never going to challenge the band or force them into new directions. I can't imagine them going with someone like Aquiles Priester or even Marco Minneman and continuing sounding pretty much the same as with Portnoy to the extent that reuniting with him a decade later works.
I actually do think the classic Portnoy sound will be back to a large degree. From what I understand a lot of the challenges with mixing Mangini was just properly miking his kit to account for his weird setup. The DT sound hasn’t really changed that much since the Portnoy era save for the drums. Assuming Portnoy has the same kit (anyone know anything about this?) we can probably expect a similar sound to the last two albums he did with them.
Personally I actually liked the DT12 drum sound, I know it’s an unpopular opinion but I liked the oomph of the drums better than when they lacked definition on ADTOE or The Astonishing. I also liked the playing and felt like that was the closest Mangini got to bringing his personal style to the band. ADTOE obviously was him interpreting Petrucci’s demos and then The Astonishing was once again working under the confines of prior written music although he did have some cool moments. I would have to listen to the last two albums more to have an informed opinion, neither of them really did anything for me.
There has been a bit of a mixed reaction online about how the Mangini situation was handled. It seems like potentially a Blaze Bayley type of thing where he was let go out of nowhere and maybe blindsided by the whole thing. One thing that has come up a lot that I am curious about is whether Mangini was really intended to be an interim drummer until the band got Portnoy back. It’s hard to tell. I remember seeing them on the Distance Over Time tour and by then it really felt like Mangini had settled into his role a bit. We were also starting to get past the point where I was really expecting a Portnoy reunion to happen (although once he started appearing with them again I knew it was inevitable). At the same time though, Mangini’s selection over other drummers is starting to make a lot of sense in retrospect. Of all the drummers they auditioned he best fit the “caretaker” role and was never going to challenge the band or force them into new directions. I can't imagine them going with someone like Aquiles Priester or even Marco Minneman and continuing sounding pretty much the same as with Portnoy to the extent that reuniting with him a decade later works.
matic22
Ancient Mariner
I think if they have gone with Minneman (who was actually the 1st choice according to some reports), he would have been gone in 2014.
Marco stated that he wants to do other projects too after the audition and DT guys wanted someone commited 100%. So they went with Mangini, while Marco ended up in that Satriani mega-band (Satriani-Minneman-Beller-Keneally).
JudasMyGuide
The resident reactionary recalcitrant
Interesting take. I agree that as a caretaker MM was great, although way back when - at least from how I understood the situation and the atmosphere - that was beside the point, because the tension was high, the emotions were raw and I'd say the least of their concerns was "how easily might Portnoy come back". But yes, of the drummers they tried out MM felt like the "safe" choice - the most willing to be aping Portnoy and maybe do just a little thing or two on his own; the most conforming one.
(I find it funny that Jason Rullo allegedly declined - or was it just a rumour? - when, considering how "inactive" Symph X mostly are, it would be hardly a hindrance to be in both bands at the same time, even).
I could see Virgil with his jazz-leaning background (which is in general full of impersonal "projects" and unstable lineups and hired guns) to be a good fit as well, precisely for this reason, the "impersonal" nature and acceptance of this "interim" position; he was also my overall favourite back in the day, for what it's worth.
I felt betrayed a bit afterwards, because I really loved ADTOE (still do) and I was hoping this would be the next course of the band. In particular, it is possibly the only album where Mangini's drums don't sound like shite (i. e. - the only one where he doesn't sound like a drum machine) and I really loved his work there - Lost not Forgotten is one of my favourite NuTheater tracks partially because of him.
MrKnickerbocker
clap hands
I don’t ever remember hearing about this, seems like a rumor. I love Rullo, but I don’t see that as a fit at all.
JudasMyGuide
The resident reactionary recalcitrant
Like I said, might be a rumour, but I vividly remember reading something along the lines (that he was offered an audition or something) and that he declined, and the source must have been at least somewhat credible/trustworthy, otherwise I'd have dismissed it and wouldn't even think of it as "possibly true", but what do I know.
Also, I see it as a better fit than Aquiles Priester, Derek Roddy or even Peter Wildoer, myself.
Rullo isn’t a great fit but then again most of the drummers they auditioned were not great fits. I’ve assumed that there were maybe 2 or 3 serious contenders and everybody else was there to make an interesting documentary/the opportunity for some cool jams with other drummers.
JudasMyGuide
The resident reactionary recalcitrant
As good time as any to come back to DTF
I couldn't not share.
I couldn't not share.
No, seriously, I would really love if they started fucking around a bit again
Saapanael
Ancient Mariner
Yeah, best track of the album.
KidInTheDark666
What's yours is mine and what's mine is mine too
I would personally pick Barstool Warrior, but AWE is a close second.