Dennis Wilcock

I promote anyone from the band who has a raw deal Barry Purkis didn't play one gig he also got asked to rejoin before Clive Burr but if you watch or read the 2004 stuff it's bullshit I speak to Bob Sawyer, Barry Purkis, Dennis Willcock, Tony Moore Tony Clee Smiler and Paull Sears, (Gypsys Kiss, Smiler and 2 Maiden songs at a festival). My questions to them are my desire to find out who actually wrote the songs Charlotte, Phantom of the Opera etc The Early Days DVD states Dennis left spring 77 but this was Stolen when Dennis was in the band why cut out a year in the official histories why the lies.....
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@Chudmyster, you're in the right place if you want to share stories about early Maiden, and clarify/correct parts of the Early Days history/Run To The Hills bio, etc. We're definitely all ears. But please, post the stories. Share the audio if you can. Get a discussion going. This is a friendly place to do it.

But your posts here and on Facebook have a bit of attitude to them. You ask "why the lies...", don't ask us, we didn't write any "lies"! If you're raising awareness, or even money, for ex-members who have been, you feel, badly treated, then great. Do it!
 
Chudmyster said:
The proof that the bootleg is real is in this photo they guy at the front Martin recorded it the guy in the middle is Dennis Willcock and I am the person at the front Dennis has heard it the quality is great
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I didn't question whether it's real - I questioned why you keep posting the same picture of it. What are we supposed to do with the knowledge of its existence?
 
I'm willing to believe there's definitely another side to the story as far as Willcock and some of the other early days guys out there, but as long as I've been following this (admittedly recent) story with Dennis reemerging and the Maiden77 page, so far it's a lot of claims and very little to back it up. It's early in the story, so I'm reserving judgment, but for example--Everybody's been clamoring to hear even a snippet of what this alleged bootleg sounds like, but it was said on that page that that particular boot won't be shared due to what is probably a small chance of a legal reprisal from Maiden's camp (particularly small if it's shared without anyone profiting). My question is, why bandy this bootleg around; why gather all this attention around a recording if the proof will never be heard? It just kind of smacks of getting attention for attention's sake.

Don't get me wrong--I have no doubt recordings of this era exist. I'm not saying this one is fake. But there's simply no reason to wave it around in the faces of the fans, claiming its authenticity when there isn't any intent to let anyone hear it. My question would be, why not approach Maiden with it? Why not make a deal with them to release this incredible rarity and share the profits with those who were involved with its recording? Maybe even donate some to the profits to the cancer benefit the Maiden77 page is kindly supporting?

But like I said, it's early, and there's obviously a lot of info that is supposedly being held back at this point. I certainly hope the information is noteworthy, and not members of a bygone age of a now-massive band hoping to get a few more minutes of fame. I may sound skeptical at this point (because thus far it's a lot of claims and little else), but I am open to any revelations they might have to bring forward.
 
^ My thoughts, exactly, plus I'd like to understand what kind of proof a recording could bring on which matters. Nobody denied that Maiden had many different members before the current ones, but a live recording cannot, as far as I know, give any clue about their actual contribution to the composition of the songs. Yes, we would be given the chance to hear an early version of, say, Phantom..., but how could we learn something about who actually brought this bit or that section ?
The only clear exception I can think of, is that well-known Soundhouse Tapes controversy : while Davey is supposed to be the only guitar player, the solos on Strange World seem to point to the opposite (to my ears at least). And, in that case, if there is a plot to hide the truth, Maiden have been stupid enough to unveil it themselves by publishing that particular version.
That said, I'm dying to hear that bootleg.
 
CA Bryers said:
I'm willing to believe there's definitely another side to the story as far as Willcock and some of the other early days guys out there, but as long as I've been following this (admittedly recent) story with Dennis reemerging and the Maiden77 page, so far it's a lot of claims and very little to back it up. It's early in the story, so I'm reserving judgment, but for example--Everybody's been clamoring to hear even a snippet of what this alleged bootleg sounds like, but it was said on that page that that particular boot won't be shared due to what is probably a small chance of a legal reprisal from Maiden's camp (particularly small if it's shared without anyone profiting). My question is, why bandy this bootleg around; why gather all this attention around a recording if the proof will never be heard? It just kind of smacks of getting attention for attention's sake.
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I disagree with you. Imagine, you want to play something, you want to show something, you want to show, prove, that you've been part of Iron Maiden in a certain time and place, on a certain recording, but at the same time you have the idea (or message) that you will be sued if you're going to share the audio.... then the only thing that's left is posting a picture and tell a story about it.

If you're not doing that, you'd be denying your own history, or at least part of it. So, no CA Bryers, it's not that logical what your saying.
CA Bryers said:
But there's simply no reason to wave it around in the faces of the fans, claiming its authenticity when there isn't any intent to let anyone hear it.
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That's your opinion. I think there is. It's the need to show you've been part of something.
CA Bryers said:
My question would be, why not approach Maiden with it? Why not make a deal with them to release this incredible rarity and share the profits with those who were involved with its recording? Maybe even donate some to the profits to the cancer benefit the Maiden77 page is kindly supporting?
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That's a good idea. Who knows this is already in process, and meanwhile, it's still not wrong to show a picture. It's annoying perhaps, but look at it from the side of the people who were involved.
CA Bryers said:
But like I said, it's early, and there's obviously a lot of info that is supposedly being held back at this point. I certainly hope the information is noteworthy, and not members of a bygone age of a now-massive band hoping to get a few more minutes of fame. I may sound skeptical at this point (because thus far it's a lot of claims and little else), but I am open to any revelations they might have to bring forward.
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Call it minutes of fame or not, but when somebody was part of something, I find it normal to hear (and tell) a realistic as possible story about that.
harrisdevot said:
^ My thoughts, exactly, plus I'd like to understand what kind of proof a recording could bring on which matters. Nobody denied that Maiden had many different members before the current ones, but a live recording cannot, as far as I know, give any clue about their actual contribution to the composition of the songs. Yes, we would be given the chance to hear an early version of, say, Phantom..., but how could we learn something about who actually brought this bit or that section ?
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That's entirely personal. I definitely am interested how an early version of a Maiden song sounds, and I'd be interested to know who plays on it and who have contributed to it.
 
Why would there be legal issues over a live bootleg? People upload bootlegs all the time, what would make this one any different?

There seem to be a lot of assumptions in this thread. I'm willing to believe that Wilcock had a larger role in contributing to songs sand the like, but for the time being there's no proof of that. I'm not going to believe Wilcock had a larger role just because some guy said so on the internet, sorry.
 
Mosh said:
Why would there be legal issues over a live bootleg? People upload bootlegs all the time, what would make this one any different?

There seem to be a lot of assumptions in this thread. I'm willing to believe that Wilcock had a larger role in contributing to songs sand the like, but for the time being there's no proof of that. I'm not going to believe Wilcock had a larger role just because some guy said so on the internet, sorry.
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Unauthorized bootlegs are inheretly illegal. Under normal circumstances nobody cares, because there are no money lost in the bootlegging. But, suppose this bootleg is real. Their existence could imply that the songwriting credits on the songs aren't truthful, and if former members had contributed to the songs they would be entitled to payments per sold album where the songs are performed, as well as payment for the songs being performed live.

Now, the bootleg itself wouldn't prove that even if it was the case, but it would be interesting.
 
Yax said:
Unauthorized bootlegs are inheretly illegal. Under normal circumstances nobody cares, because there are no money lost in the bootlegging. But, suppose this bootleg is real. Their existence could imply that the songwriting credits on the songs aren't truthful, and if former members had contributed to the songs they would be entitled to payments per sold album where the songs are performed, as well as payment for the songs being performed live.
Now, the bootleg itself wouldn't prove that even if it was the case, but it would be interesting.
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Maybe I'm wrong, but I assume all those legal matters have been solved a long time ago. I can't imagine those ageing musicians who didn't all have a successfull career waiting till 2014 to get the royalties they think they deserve. And, as Yax pointed out, credits on a bootleg booklet can't prove anything. But, putain de merde, I really hope that we will be able to buy this stuff.
 
Yep, there's simply no way to prove songwriting credits with a bootleg. It might prove certain ex-members played on early versions of songs (and with an audio recording, vocals aside, it's a long shot to nail down who's playing what on it), but, unless I'm mistaken, Harris has songwriting credit on most of the first two albums, IIRC. So far the talk is all "lies, this, lies that," and not anything that's indicating someone's going to take Maiden to court to fight for songwriting royalties. Unless someone has some actual documentation, good luck with that if all this talk does go that way. Without documentation, it would probably take Harris coming clean and admitting that some old songs were written by others.

So that value of the bootleg, when it comes down to it, is more or less a curiosity for die-hard Maiden fans who want a peek at what the old songs sounded like with Wilcock on board. If it got cleaned up for some kind of official release, yeah, I'd buy a copy. But more than likely, no official release, no plopping it onto the net for free. The guy who owns it owns it, we're not entitled to hear it if he doesn't feel like sharing for whatever reason. If it does exist,that is. :ahhh:
 
Mosh said:
Of course not, but nobody has to believe whatever claims the guy makes if he isn't going to share it.
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This is true. Just trying to be diplomatic and not trollish, but you're right--the burden of proof falls on whomever makes the claims. Anybody here or elsewhere the Maiden77 guy has run into who are skeptical have every right to be skeptical. Nobody has to believe him, but if he's making claims he knows who owns and has heard a legit Wilcock-era bootleg and that ex-members wrote songs, etc., it's more or less his duty to make people believe, otherwise why bring it all up in the first place? Sure, it's vaguely interesting, but with all the talk of "lies" and stirring the pot with mysterious conversations with this guy and that, thus far it's all been tease and no payoff.

That being said, I am giving the guy the benefit of the doubt. There probably is a legit bootleg, and he probably has been told by ex-members some stories about "I wrote this," and so on. Not saying those ex-members are lying either--just saying. Like I said, it's sort of interesting, but unless something a little more concrete comes along information-wise, people will lose that little bit of interest and along with it their open-mindedness to these claims.
 
Just adding my two cents worth here. The bootleg is real enough but isn't up for public grabs as that is the wish of the owner. And there are other bootlegs around from that time so this is not the only one. As for who wrote what songs and when is another matter entirely. As we're now slowly discovering, Den's contribution to the band was more than the official and unofficial biographies have let on and for the IM management to freely admit to that and more now is highly unlikely given the embarrassment it would cause them. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's more to come...
 
The point of the picture is the track listing showing what songs were in existence some not all early members were paid off for songs what I am interested in is who actually wrote what Sanctuary was a Nitro song that was bought by Rod Smallwood but the credit says Harris Phantom of the Opera was named such because of it's original keyboard intro by Tony Moore that is now played on guitar, Dennis said the Ides of March was a keyboard intro written by Tony Moore the idea of Maiden77 was to find out what actually went on Steve's diary shows Dennis joining Maiden in 76 press adds prove he was there in 78 but Steve talks about it being a short while where as Paul Todd is what I call or many of the others that were in the bands for weeks or a couple of months. A large amount of writing was done songs that appeared on Iron Maiden and Killers most fans think they were written during the Dianno era that is all we are trying to disprove..... The other stuff that was taken as gospel by myself and other's the logo etc are being picked apart....... Rod Smallwood rewrote the history in Running Free and he wasn't there in the early days he even said the 1978 line up of Iron Maiden was Smiler because he had never met that line up and only recognised Dennis and Steve in the picture the 40th anniversary is coming up it's about time we got the truth.
The bootleg proves the songs were around the most different being Sanctuary still being played in it's Nitro form that is a song Dennis and Bob played before Maiden and no it is not as good as the later polished version musically the lyrics are the same but a majority of the songs were the same as they were later recorded Wrathchild had a more Sabbath guitar rift where as the recordings later had was bass led.
The recording will probably be heard next year Dennis just want's to speak to Steve first but as Steve never paid Dennis off and Dennis never signed a contract so it is messy when regarding song writing credits etc as in theory there could be money involved... But Dennis has rejoined Gibraltar and has a CD coming out with the original Demo's of V1 featuring Terry Wapram and his next group that had Maiden connections Ron Rebel played live with them and Tony Parsons recorded some great demo's.. Rememer this Dennis did the Sound for Maiden after he stopped singing for them at the Ruskin Arms because V1 had already played there and Barry Thunderstick Purkis was invited to rejoin before Clive Burr was given the gig if Dennis really had let them down why would they let him do the sound this info was on the net years before Dennis resurfaced and if Barry was that bad why ask him back at all....
 
Thanks for the info, also interesting what you say on the songs. Let's hope the stuff will be shared one day, and I hope all people concerned will come to turns (best before 40th anniversary indeed).

Good that Dennis wants to speak to Steve about, let's hope that will go well.
 
I have discussed this matter in great lengths on the IMFC so I don't want to repeat myself here. But I do want to comment on somethings that are commented by Chudmyster to see if he can clarify what he is saying.

If Sanctuary was played by Nitro and bought by Rod Smallwood (and knowing Rod) isn't simpler to show the contract signed by the parties or release a bootleg of Nitro playing the song before Paul joined Maiden?

Tony Moore, in Iron Maiden - Thirty Years Of The Beast: The Unauthorised Biography by Paul Stenning says that while he was in the band he worked on the song along with Terry over Steve's Grandmother's house and that Steve named the song (as many others) because of the movie. He doesn't claim or say that Steve named the song because of the keyboards or that the song was his.

I have read a lot of Dennis' interviews and nowhere I have seen such commentary about The Ides Of March, could you please give us the source of this comment?

Where is the proof (sorry my ignorance on the matter if any) that Dennis did Maiden sound after he "quit" the band? Same question about Thunderstick being invited to rejoin before Clive? I have knowledge on an interview given by Barry where he talks about what he "dropped" on a Maiden gig, but I have never seen anything where he says that he was invited to join? Could you please provide the source of this asseverations?

If Dennis and Harris never signed anything about the rights of the song and Harris registered the songs, Dennis had the legal right to confront such registration at the time and if he did not he lost all rights to it... However, he could prove that he sung such songs.

Speaking of legal matters, a picture cannot prove the existence of an audio recording, it can only prove the existence of (in this case) a tape that supposedly has an audio recording. The only way to prove the existence of an audio recording is a sample of the claimed recording or to play the whole audio...
 
Chudmyster said:
The point of the picture is the track listing showing what songs were in existence some not all early members were paid off for songs what I am interested in is who actually wrote what Sanctuary was a Nitro song that was bought by Rod Smallwood but the credit says Harris Phantom of the Opera was named such because of it's original keyboard intro by Tony Moore that is now played on guitar, Dennis said the Ides of March was a keyboard intro written by Tony Moore the idea of Maiden77 was to find out what actually went on Steve's diary shows Dennis joining Maiden in 76 press adds prove he was there in 78 but Steve talks about it being a short while where as Paul Todd is what I call or many of the others that were in the bands for weeks or a couple of months. A large amount of writing was done songs that appeared on Iron Maiden and Killers most fans think they were written during the Dianno era that is all we are trying to disprove..... The other stuff that was taken as gospel by myself and other's the logo etc are being picked apart....... Rod Smallwood rewrote the history in Running Free and he wasn't there in the early days he even said the 1978 line up of Iron Maiden was Smiler because he had never met that line up and only recognised Dennis and Steve in the picture the 40th anniversary is coming up it's about time we got the truth.
The bootleg proves the songs were around the most different being Sanctuary still being played in it's Nitro form that is a song Dennis and Bob played before Maiden and no it is not as good as the later polished version musically the lyrics are the same but a majority of the songs were the same as they were later recorded Wrathchild had a more Sabbath guitar rift where as the recordings later had was bass led.
The recording will probably be heard next year Dennis just want's to speak to Steve first but as Steve never paid Dennis off and Dennis never signed a contract so it is messy when regarding song writing credits etc as in theory there could be money involved... But Dennis has rejoined Gibraltar and has a CD coming out with the original Demo's of V1 featuring Terry Wapram and his next group that had Maiden connections Ron Rebel played live with them and Tony Parsons recorded some great demo's.. Rememer this Dennis did the Sound for Maiden after he stopped singing for them at the Ruskin Arms because V1 had already played there and Barry Thunderstick Purkis was invited to rejoin before Clive Burr was given the gig if Dennis really had let them down why would they let him do the sound this info was on the net years before Dennis resurfaced and if Barry was that bad why ask him back at all....
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Thanks for the explanation.
These are all fine and good goals, and I think that you deserve support for that. If I may make a suggestion, the best way to make it clear what your aim is and what you want to achieve is by organising everything you have so far. Both this thread and the Maiden77 Facebook page appear very messy to me, and there is too much attitude in there. If you organised the presentation of your information, I think a lot more people would get interested and provide support. For example, you could set up a blog with individual articles that are categorised, e.g. "songwriting information", "live performance information", "current projects" etc. That would be interesting to follow, and might also catch the interest of people who may be able to contribute something.
 
Chudmyster said:
Sanctuary was a Nitro song that was bought by Rod Smallwood but the credit says Harris
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Sanctuary appears on the tracklisting of this supposed june 1977 gig, but Rod only "joined" Maiden two years later. The two pieces of "evidence" contradict each over, don't they ?
 
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