Canadian Seal Hunt Controversy

[LooseCannon]

Alrighty, that's fine and dandy, but I would like to summarize my side of the debate. as well.

First of all, I would like to say that when done properly, there is no medical evidence to suggest a seal cull is inhumane. It is certainly gory, and gross. But not inhumane. Veterinary experts have testified that it is well within the same standards of regulation as used for slaughterhouses worldwide.

Having said that, I am more than willing to agree that it is not always done right. That sealers can occasionally mess it up. That some are certain to be cruel and petty men. However, I object to the small percentage of such being applied to the whole. It's not logical.

Onto the legalities of things: Forostar, I think I was particularly insulted that you suggested that Canada had seized the Farley Mowat to stop it from recording the hunt and airing Canada's dirty laundry. The point I tried to make is that (at the time), nobody other than the members of the Sea Shepherd group had claimed that their documentation, recordings, etc. had been seized. The crews have since been released and Watson said on TV last night that they have all the video and documentation they wanted, though the ship remains impounded.

A point I wanted to make firmly but don't think I did is that quotes from Watson and the story from his point of view can't be considered credible. Nor do I think any presentation of this issue should be considered balanced when it comes from Sea Shepherd. Watson & his group have made a career of piracy. They claim to have attacked and sunk 10 ships engaged in whaling. There are claims that the Farley Mowat tried to disrupt the integrity of manned ice floes during their cruise. And when a Coast Guard cutter got too close, they collided with the ship. I don't think they should be considered, by any ways or means, as a "good" group of people, and I don't think anything they say should be seriously considered. They went to document the hunt with the stated objective of exposing how cruel it is. I don't think that they can ever be called on to be objective.

I am all in favour of the EU, or whoever, sending delegations of veterinarians and of scientists to observe the hunt (as regulated by the Coast Guard due to safety reasons) and to go out after and examine the carcasses and such. I think that is very important to the ongoing health of the hunt. To me, the world's largest and most recognized body for wildlife preservation has time and time again sanctioned the hunt as humane, and this should very much affect people's opinion of it. It hasn't.

One of the things that really upset me about this thread, Forostar, is that it started out as being very "emotional". When we argued about whether or not the cull is humane, when I suggested it was, it felt like you ignored that point. I'd like to say it again: most times the animals don't suffer. You can disagree with that, but studies suggest that they are. As I had posted one, for instance. When you argued it was from 2005, I felt very insulted. A 2005 report is a very modern report, and most of the suggestions taken from the report are now in place. Regulations have not become more barbaric in 3 years; indeed, methods have been altered to attempt to achieve a higher level of humane treatment. These new methods are in their first year, but the old ones were working fairly well. I expect this year or next we will see a new report from the WWF on this.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All that aside, I want to explain my emotions around the thread.

First of all, Forostar said something that is taboo in my region. Calling Newfoundlanders & Cape Bretoners "dumb" and "losers" is extremely insulting. I would, without exaggeration, consider that sort of criticism based on the economic situation akin to a politician calling a black man the n-word. It's ended political careers in Canada. Forostar couldn't know this, but it is still absolutely infuriating to me and to Atlantic Canadians from all walks of life.

What made it very difficult to me to believe Forostar was arguing objectively was that he seemed to be discounting any evidence suggesting an opposite viewpoint. By which I mean, veterinary evidence. The report I posted was ridiculed as being old. I agree that the videos are brutal and hard to watch, but again, they are being posted by groups who have a stated objective of documenting the cruelty of the hunt; not documenting the hunt. To me, that looks like propaganda.

It is propaganda.

I have no problem with my country taking criticism for this particular activity. I welcome international criticism because it is what will ensure we keep the hunt tightly regulated and as humane as possible. But I want the international community to weigh in with something more than YouTube videos and the angered protests of people who value the lives of seals & whales above human life. I think that's fair.

 

[Forostar]

First of all, Forostar said something that is taboo in my region.  Calling Newfoundlanders & Cape Bretoners "dumb" and "losers" is extremely insulting.

Well, not really. I haven't mentioned Newfoundlanders & Cape Bretoners. I used those terms about those involved in that hunt. If it took place somewhere else, it would have been the same. So my words had more to do with the job than with the nationality and/or location.


BTW: good that the equipment was given back.

I also just read an update:

Cornelissen (who was set free and sent to the Netherlands) told after his release, that the ship was 35 miles (almost 55 kilometers) from the cost, and thus outside Canadian territorial waters. The captain plans to "knock on the door" of the Dutch government because of this action of the Canadian authorities.

 

[LooseCannon]

I am sure that you meant no specific insult to the region, Forostar, but regardless, it is extremely insulting, because those people are from this region.  It's a touchy subject.

And Mr. Cornelissen has every right to protest, but the Dutch gov't was warned this might happen beforehand.  Again, you don't have to be in the territorial waters to be subject to Canadian jurisdiction...

 

[Onhell]

As yet, I honestly haven't done any of those options.

You personalize things too much. If I meant that statement to be about you I would have said so...

 

[Forostar]

I just wanted to be clear. Since you have not said who you meant, you could have meant anyone.

Besides, if you read the rest of my post, you could understand that I wanted to give an explanation. That part was just a small part of it.

 

[Dr. Eddies Wingman]

I've sure had an interesting read in this thread. Both because the two sides here stand far away from each other regarding the topic itself, and because a topic which is not really seen as controversial where I come from (Norway) starts something reminding me of a flame war.

Of course, it is not 100% true that seal hunt is totally uncontroversial in Norway. Seal hunting is going on in Norwegian waters as well (especially in the areas around Svalbard) and there is some opposition to it here as well. But, as LooseCannon states about the opposition to the hunting in Canada, it seems to me to be reasoned more in emotions than in biologic facts. The seal stock has to be controlled and hunting is the only way to do it. We cannot lead their food, the fish, away from the seals.

And if I'm not mistaken, hunting whitecoat is not allowed. They were hunted earlier because of their skin, but this kind of hunt ceased decades ago. And yes, they are cute. So are roe deer, but yum, they taste good 

An end note about Sea Shepherd: I feel nothing but contempt for Paul Watson and his organization. They have actually sunk whale boats in Norway and Iceland. One thing is to be against whaling/sealing, sabotage is something completely different. I would enjoy the sight of Paul Watson's crew being picked up by a Navy ship after being sunk themselves, and having to peel potatoes for the rest of the two month voyage 

 

[Onhell]

I just wanted to be clear. Since you have not said who you meant, you could have meant anyone.

Besides, if you read the rest of my post, you could understand that I wanted to give an explanation. That part was just a small part of it.

I did, that much was clear

 

[Forostar]

Well, I guess most of our skins have become a bit thicker. We all learned from what happened earlier on in this topic. Myself, I'll try to be less emotional on this subject. I am especially interested to see how politics will handle this issue.

So I guess it's allowed to post this update:

Seal Campaign Update: Seal Hunt Gets Failing Grade From EU

A new IFAW report concludes that Canada's commercial seal hunt fails to meet most of the European Commission's standards for animal welfare. The Commission is proposing a ban on seal products that originate from countries which practice cruel hunting methods.

IFAW's report found that Canada's commercial seal hunt failed to meet at least 7 of the 10 standards set forth by the European Commission.

"Canada's commercial seal hunt does not begin to meet the European requirements on paper, let alone in practice" said Sheryl Fink, Senior IFAW researcher and author of the report.

While IFAW welcomed the news of the proposed ban, it warned that loopholes in the legislation could still allow seal products to enter the markets.

"Other than a complete ban, there is absolutely no way to guarantee that products from seals that were killed inhumanely will not continue to enter the EU" said Fink.
---------

More on the site of the European Commission:

Here you can find several documents such as:

Regulation banning the trade of seal products within, into and from the EU (July 2008)

Summary of the impact assessment on the potential impact of a ban of products derived from seal species:
---->
...8.
A total prohibition of imports and exports would have medium economic impacts on the EU Member States, although those impacts could be significant for Finland and Germany, if such ban would also cover transit trade. The impacts would be slightly higher for the non-EU range states. This is again a result of the fact that the size of the seal hunts in non-EU countries is much larger than in the EU range states, and that the EU market - apart for Russia - is of some importance. However, if the ban is extended to transit trade Canada will in particular suffer, unless this trade can be shifted from Germany and Finland to outside of the EU e.g. Norway. Hence, Norway may actually strengthen its position as a transit trader. With regard to the consumer, he/she would only have a very limited choice of seal products derived from seal species hunted in the EU and offered for sale on local markets only. Denmark and Italy are by far the two largest EU importers of raw fur skin from seal for further processing / sales on the EU market, and will thus also be affected by such regulation. Denmark imports the raw fur skins directly coming from Canada and Greenland (that are not categorised as goods in transit), while Italy imports the raw fur skins from Russia, Finland and the UK (Scotland). Greece also has a noticeable trade in raw skins originating in the two latter range states.
....

 

[LooseCannon]

Well, that sucks, but we'll still have to do a hunt to keep the harp seal population down.  Not too much you can do about the fact that they have no natural predators anymore.  Economic considerations aren't the origin of the (greatly expanded) hunt.  Though I hope they can find a more acceptably humane manner.

Perhaps a virus would be more acceptable to the EU.

 

[NewsModerator]

User SinisterMinisterX has posted incorrect information regarding Seal Hunt

Oh fer crying out loud, not this again. Why can't these idiots leave the hunters alone?

The acts committed by Newfoundland Canadian Sealers are criminalized in more than 40 countries. It is considered a Federal Crime. So, YES, this. Again. Get used to it because it is not only going to continue, it is going to increase geometrically against these hunters who are now considered Felons in multiple continents.

Also, as stated, the acts committed by these Seal Clubbers are now considered crimes across the entire rest of the North American continent. You just referred to those who are against these criminals as "idiots". Well, the UNITED STATES of AMERICA is against them. So are most of the good Canadians, sealers represent merely a tiny extremist faction of less than 0.00015 of Canada who commit this, 99% of Good Canadians are against this tiny fraction of less than 0.015% of this handful of extremist sealers. And you just called 99% of good Canadians idiots. And since there are people from the US here, you've just called everyone from the US idiots. Not only that, ALL of Canada's NAFTA partners have banned the acts of these sealers, so you've called the rest of the entire North American continent idiots. And the UK. And Europe. The entire 27-member bloc of the EU has banned the illicit products of these sealers, this includes the UK, where iron maiden is from, so you've just included the band member of Iron Maiden who hail from the UK as idiots, in fact nearly the entire continent of Europe and any Europeans here, you've implied are idiots because the people of Europe are against that small pack of slaughterers that help bring shame onto Canada's good name. So apparently entire continents, plus nearly everyone here, plus the band that this site is about and nearly the entire world are idiots according to SinisterMinisterX, and a tiny insignificant handful of men who fish and beat seals on the head are geniuses smarter than everyone else.

And unfortunately for any of the tiny portion of 0.00015 of the population, who are located in one of a limited number of remote areas in 1 to 3 out of the entire 10 provinces of Canada who think that it's going to be a good job prospect for them to embark into the profession of Canadian Seal Clubber, this is going to be a fact that such an individual had better get used to, for the rest of their entire life. Because more and more countries are enacting laws against these men, and revulsion against such individuals is mounting and growing and is not going away, so it will be the case for 5, 10, 20, 50, 80years or longer if it even takes that long. 27 more countries have just criminalized the illicit products of these individuals this year alone. So if one is going to choose either to conduct these acts, or become a cheerleader for a small sect of dwindling persons who continue to shame their country, the one better get used to hearing about it, again, and again, and again, and growing more and more against it, for their entire life. So get used to it.

It's part of the culture and the tradition. If one person doesn't understand or approve of the culture and tradition of another person, but that culture and tradition doesn't hurt anyone, let it be.

This is not tradition. This is a commercial industrial operation. This user has just insinuated that either this has something to do with Native aboriginals, which it does not, or, that simply because a small faction of individuals have committed an atrocity for some time, that constitutes some sort of tradition and that justifies committing acts that are considered a Federal crime across most of the civilized world. This is no more any kind of tradition than is strip mining, or the slave trade. Some people conducted slavery for hundreds of years, too, however, today *most* people know that is wrong, and have banned it. Likewise, human sacrifice of infants was a "tradition" practiced by the Mayans. There are Mayans still living today. Is human sacrifice of babies allowed for them? No. Burning witches was traditional in the Dark Ages, do we say, hey, you're decended from people who practiced that act for centuries, it's your "tradition" passed on from forefather to offspring for hundreds of years and generations for centures! So you should be allowed to continue!--No. Sorry. Tradition is rejected and is no longer accepted as sufficient justification for the commission or the perpetuation of atrocities.

And don't gimme crap about "killing seals inhumanely". We, the human race, are at the top of the evolutionary ladder. The seals aren't. They lose. End of story.

No you're not. Try using simply what DNA and genetic Evolution has given you, and fight a bear. And see who wins. It shall be the bear. And remember, evolution did not provide you with any such thing as hands in the shape of a Rifle, or any such thing. Every single one of the items you are thinking of such as guns, explosives, etc that you mistakenly think are part of your genetically evolved tissues are not. They are artificial constructs. And before you begin attempting to try to type that you or humans have evolved your brain such that you have the right to claim the use of such things as Guns to prove that you are genetically and evolutionarily greater than anything, let you be reminded that Your brain does not have this ability. In other words, you are taking credit genetically, for something like a gun, that is neither biologically part of your DNA, NOR are you capable of even making a gun! You are taking credit for the work of someone elses brain, not Yours! If you yourself were put out in the woods, given everything that evolution and DNA has bestowed you with, you would not be able to detect ore, forge iron with the proper proportions of ore, coke, and limestone, smelt copper into bullets and produce the powder compounds in the right chemical ratios to create bullets, and then cast and construct such a thing as a gun yourself. A gun is not something that YOU have growing genetically as part of your tissue as a result of evolution to the "top" of anything, nor are you personally able to construct such a thing as what you are arrogantly attempting to take credit for. So if it were a fight between what you are bestowed genetically through evolution, against what a bear comes with when it's born, YOU ARE NOT AT THE TOP. YOU WILL LOSE. In fact, your genetics would lose against a majority of animals out there. Including a crocs, elephants, rhinos, snakes, even a platypus and a hippo would send you to the grave and stop your genetic line in its tracks.

So this type of antro-centric prejudice arrogantly taking credit for things attributable to others, and artificially made non-genetic items to gloat that you are at the top of anything would end you in a matter of minutes against what a majority of animals come genetically and evolutionarily equipped with.

Your post is discredited. And from all indications, your genetic development indicates that as far as humans go, you are toward the bottom of the human evolutionary ladder.

 

[NewsModerator]

User LOOSECANNON has posted Falsified information regarding Seal Hunt

Well, as you might guess, I have a lot to say on this particular subject.

First of all, the seal hunt is generally run by the government in order to reduce the population of seals off Newfoundland and the Great Banks. 

The user LooseCannon has just attempted to post incorrect and falsified information. This is FALSE.

In fact, this user LOOSECANNON has even posted information in direct contravention of Seal Hunters, the Department of Fisheries DFO which is the government operation that runs the seal hunt, and in contravention to Science. LooseCannon has attempted a common trick used by a group of special interest lobbyists in Newfoundland that have concocted a series of plausible-sounding myths in order to dupe the govt into allocating them funds, and of course to dupe the public, and all readers here into supporting them. The user LooseCannon has even lied to all of you here about the objectives of the seal hunt in direct contravention to the Assistant Deputy Ministor of the agency which enforces, authorizes and runs the seal hunt! In other words, he is telling lies that are not even held by the officials that run the entire seal hunt:


NOTICE:
This is a direct quote, recorded into evidence, and provided under direct testimony in front of Canadian Parliament during the official meeting of the Standing Committee on Fisheries & Oceans, at the 39th PARLIMENT, 1st Session, CANADA:

"The objectives for the hunt are sustainable use, conservation, use of the killed animals. One thing we want to make clear is that we do not have an objective to limit the size of the population ...

"We could not determine any rationale to limit the size of the population."

SUBMITTED INTO EVIDENCE

Thursday, June 15, 2006

by Mr. David Bevan (Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Aquaculture Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans):



ok. That is direct testimony, logged into the official record, by the Assistant Deputy Minister of very government agency that is responsible for the Enforcement, and all operations of the Canadian Seal hunt.

Just to be clear... Once more time! THE SEAL HUNT IS NOT FOR CONTROLLING, REDUCING, OR ADJUSTING THE SEAL POPULATION!

And if you ever see anyone attempt to write that or say it, that person is in direct contravention to the DFO, and the Assistant Deputy Minister of the hunt itself.

Mind you, this is not simply protesters or something saying this, this comes from the Officials responsible for conducting the hunt itself that he is lying about.


Sealers and pro-sealers often try to post this, because most people will not have the official and scientific information regarding this, and will buy into it. Because it seems "plausible". Oh, yeah of course, population "needs" to be controlled. yes. I see. Yes aha---NO. In fact, reducing the population actually causes severe DAMAGE. As you will see in a moment.

Once again, if you ever see anyone attempt to post that the seal hunt is conducted, or "needs" to be conducted for the objective of population control, that user is immediately debunked and unreliable. And is defying even the agency that runs the hunt itself!

The seal population had exploded over the last 4-5 decades due to the reduction of its natural foes, and government studies commissioned in the aftermath of the 1991-93 moratoriums on federal fishing suggested that a prime cause of the reduction of fish was the fact that baby seals were eating fish eggs; indeed, many baby seals were dying of starvation due to their over population.--THIS ENTIRE ITEM IS COMPLETELY FALSIFIED INFORMATION

This entire line, by LooseCannon is False. This ruse is used so often you'll see this lie everywhere and it is easy to detect. It should have it's own entry on SNOPES next to the spam email that tells you microsoft will give you hundeds of dollars to forward it-BOGUS!

Here is the trick that sealers and cheerleaders for seal hunters try to pull on you. They get you to believe that the seal population was 2 million in the 70's, and then tell you it's 6 million now, and then try to get you to believe that means seals are exploding and coming out of everywhere! Tripled! Coming out from your bathtub or something.

Here's what they DONT tell you. ORIGINALLY, the seal population was over 40 MILLION! That is the seals natural populaton! And it was at this same time when the seals were 40 million, that the fish and the cod were burgeoning! It is when the seal population was up at 30 40+ million that the stories of legend were told! About having so many fish at the Grand Banks that you could practically walk across the water on their backs! It's when the seals were at 40 million in times past that they helped the fish and the Grand Banks were legendary, practically the richest source of fish on the entire earth!

Enter Sealers and Fishermen... They won't tell you what happened before the 1970's because they want to conceal this part of it from you. Sealers, killed so many seals, that they nearly decimated the entire population! Canadian Seal hunters slaughtered them so badly that they drove them from 40 million down to only 1.9 million! They destroyed them! Until the seals became nearly extinct! It is near this time that the United States of America BANNED Canadians and told them to stop it and criminalized the act of commercial sealing. Europe followed. And this will surprise you as well... Canadian sealers have NEVER officially banned the hunt. To anyone who thinks it stopped at any point, that is Not true for Canada. Fewer may have gone out, but it was never banned.

Canada continued even to kill the neonatal infant seals. These are called whitecoats and these were killed by the hundreds of thousands over decades by these men until FINALLY in the 1980's under pressure from Activists and Defenders, Canada was forced to ban the practice of killing ONLY the infants that are younger then 12 days old. This was not something chosen by the Sealers, this was accomplished by pressure from defenders. This is important because it's sealers today that "brag" about this law saying they don't kill the whitecoats. They also use it to dupe people into thinking they don't kill "babies" anymore which is another falsified myth. They'd still be killing whitecoats too if it were not for the victory of defenders. As it stands, they still kill babies aged from simply 12 days old onward! In fact, they target them since their fur pelt is younger, and comands a higher wallet fattening lump for them since it hasn't had time to get scratched, or scarred or anything. (these men going after and killing the virgins). As soon as they moult, from white to gray, at about just 12 days, they end their lives.

So what happened was Sealers had killed the seals so badly that they decimated their population from 40 million down to just 1.9m left.

They, and this user LooseCannon, and similar minions and seal clubber cheerleaders will neglect to tell you that.

Instead, they will BEGIN at that destruction point, and attempt to tell you that since it has taken over 30 years ( 3 DECADES! ) for them to go from 1.9m back up to 5.5 million, somehow that means they are EXPLODING! Remember, this has taken probably longer than many of your entire adult lifetimes than some of you reading this for the seals to even go from 1.9 to 5.5.

And at 5.5 million, sealers will attempt to balloon that up, sometimes to 6, and even attempt to get you to believe that is a lot. Let's see what the actual information is:

Compared to their ORIGINAL, natural equilibrium population of 40 million, their population now of less than 5.5 million is ONLY 0.14 of their original native population!

Currently, as we speak, seals are only 0.14 of what they were! And this has taken them over 30 years to accomplish!


So now you see why even the Agency in charge of the hunt DENIES that the objective of the seal hunt has anything to do with reducing their population! That is a bogus line concocted by a small special interest lobbyist group of sealers and spread around much like cigarette companies told you cigarettes never caused cancer. Remember these sealers are NOT involved in doing this for subsistence food! These people are not the Natives. These are white, anglo european fishermen, who already have a 2nd job fishing, who are involved in an industrial operation and conducting the Largest Marine Mammal Slaughter on the face of the Planet.

If you ever see anyone attempt to post that "seals are exploding!" or the other line is "the seal population has tripled!" etc, that person is willfully posting deceptive information in direct contravention to the operators of the hunt itself in order to trick you into perpetuating falsified information. You can use that to spot any pro-sealer scam user and immediately know he is unreliable and debunked.

However, you can't approach sealing vessels for a *reason*.  It's really dangerous.  Earlier this year our own Coast Guard fucked it up, and while towing a disable vessel, caused it to flip and kill four sailors.

In the entire history of the seal hunt, NO ACTIVIST, DEFENDER, PROTESTER, or Animal Rights Advocate ever seriously hurt or lead to the death of ANYONE. In the entire history of the hunt. In contrast to this, the incident described above, was a result of the OPERATORS of the Seal hunt!

The Seal Hunt is operated by a militant organization known as the DFO. The DFO is in control of military vessels. That includes the Coast Guard. (Yes, in Canada, an entire branch of the military is put underneath the seal clubbing department! For those of you Americans, this would be like putting having the AirForce being run by the Department of Chicken farmers or the Marines under the Departement of Tuna or something. There is no precedent for this)

In any case, the Canadian Coast Guard, is commanded and operated by the DFO. EVERY single year, the DFO disregards safety and entices sealers to go out in Arctic ice regions, using little unfit boats. These are NOT ice class vessels! These are little rickety aluminum boats, and boats made out of wood! Remember, we're talking about waters here that sunk the TITANIC. The DFO does not have any rule whatsoever for inspecting or certifying these vessels before allowing them to go out. This would be like if the US DMV told kids with mopeds or skate boards they were encouraged to go out on the SuperHighway. So inevitably, what happens EVERY single year, is that due to the DFO pushing the continuance of this seal hunt, humans get hurt, there are accidents, their boats get crushed, they manage to catch some of their own vessels on Fire, they get stuck and frozen in the ice pack as the water freezes around them, they get overturned, flipped, marooned, stranded, etc, and then Canadian taxpayers have to pay the canadian Coast Guard to go fish them out and rescue them! Recently over 400 boats got stuck in the ice! hundreds! Accidents. People get hurt due to the seal hunt, and this seal hunt is about more than crying inhumane for killing animals, make no mistake about it, this thing called the seal hunt even causes HUMAN DEATH!

And NOT due to any activists either. The actions of the Canadian Coast Guard CCG under the orders of the DFO who run the seal hunt itself are the ones who KILLED THEM!

This was due to incompetence, and poor maritime skills. The DFO told the sealers to GO. With NO regard for safety, EVERY year there are accidents and deaths! And this time the DFO gave the orders to the CCG to conduct a so-called "rescue" mission, the CCG huge ice-class vessel tied a rope to the vessel and began pulling it, without regard for proper safety they let the sealers stay ON the damaged boat! and pulled it into an ice berg, flipped it, it filled with water and killed them.

Watch out, as well, if you EVER see anyone (not here. (yet.) not this user) who says activists killed 4 sealers, that's another lie that they like to try to post.

I don't care for Sea Shepherd anyway, but it seems very stupid to me that they are patrolling Canada's economic zone and don't expect to be subject to Canadian laws.  The international community has held up our rights within the 200 mile limit before and will do so again.

It was Paul Watson and SeaShepherd that HELPED Canadian Newfoundland Fishermen and sealers by discouraging FOREIGN mechanized trawler fleets from poaching in Canadian Waters and helped try to save the cod & the fish! Newfoundland fishermen cheered and applauded Paul Watson for running them off! Because they were trawling and taking HUGE swaths of cod and Paul Watson warned about the cod catastrophe coming up. But what they went and did, is as soon as the Foreign trawlers got chased off, the Newfoundland Canadian fishermen themselves started doing it! And it was the Newfoundland Canadian fishermen themselves that took so many of the fish & cod in order to gain profits after the foreign trawlers were out, that caused the slide that resulted in the biggest maritime fisheries disaster of all time, the devastation of the entire Canadian Grand Banks Cod fishery. Just like Paul told them would happen.

Of course, when he was telling the foreigners to get out, the Newfoundland Canadians LOVED him, congratulated him, cheered him! but when he said, No, that doesn't mean that now YOU can do it, the Newfoundland Fishermen (many of whom are also seal clubbers) turned on him. Paul Watson and SeaShepherd maintained the same stance the entire time, and warned of the cod disaster, and were helping the fisheries. The DFO, along with Newfoundland and Atlantic Fishermen who were all to happy to see the dollar signs if they began trawling lead to the devastation of the entire Atlantic Canadian Fisheries Cod collapse. It was Paul Watson that warned of this before it happened, and helped. And after the Canadian fishermen disregarded it, and destroyed it, and turned, it has still NOT recoverd to this very day. In fact, they are still not listening and have made it even worse.

This user LooseCannon above also is not familiar with the distinction between the 12-mile "TERRITORIAL" limit, and the 200-mile "ECONOMIC EXCLUSION ZONE". 12 miles is what constitutes the territory of Canada, not 200! And the vessel was NOT within that limit. In an EEZ or economic exclusion zone, the maritime definition includes economic activity. In other words, there is NO jurisdiction as far as territorial waters, and it only applies to vessels that are conducting commercial industrial operations, as in selling something! Like fish. This does not apply to a specivic vessel that is not conducting any fishing, not conducting any netting, trawling, harvesting, or other commercial operations. For example the 200 mile EEZ does NOT apply to a yacht, nor a boat passing through the St Lawrence seaway, afterall ships have to pass through there all the time, or a private vessel simply moving through the waters for through-passage! So the user LooseCannon doesn't have proper nautical and maritime knowledge of the territorial versus economic zones, and therefore the seizure of the vessel was illegal, and did not apply to the SeaShepherd vessel within that 200 mile limit!


Remember, it was the DFO and their CCG that had such maritime incompetence on the sea that they killed 4 people! So this same entity who did not have the wherewithal to operate that correctly, cannot be trusted to provide accurate information or reports or documentation regarding incidents that transpired in that area regarding their ship!

Paul Watson, you should know, is a Canadian citizen. And he grew up in Newfoundland. And mind you, not 1 person has been killed under the auspices of SeaShepherd or Paul Watson in the entire 30 year history of SeaShepherd. And not only that, he is ex-COAST GUARD. He is fully familiar with maritime operations, limits, and maritime laws including UNCLOS. He, and that vessel have made not only that trip to Canada, but he has passed through the Panama canal zone, and has dozens of voyages into both Arctic AND Antarctic waters and has all manner of experience in everything from tropical to arctic conditions.

 

[Perun]

Just so everybody knows: We never installed a News Moderator. This is a troll who should not be fed.

 

[Forostar]

I admit that he uses a confusing user name and he is pretty direct towards SMX and LC (but compared to what happened earlier in this topic it isn't that bad and I know these forummers have a thick skin).

That aside, he sure seems to know what he is talking about and was apparently motivated enough by the subject to register. It's not that bad to hear different sides of a story. Maybe I should speak for myself alone, but I thought the info he provided was interesting.

 

[LooseCannon]

Foro, a lot of what that person posted is propaganda, and a lot of it is very much a lie.  I really don't want to get back into this, so I was kinda hoping we could just close the topic and let it lie.  What do you think?

 

[Forostar]

I don't have huge objections, tho' if there's some development in the subject I hope there's still room to talk about it.

And I was curious for your answers, but don't go for it if you didn't intend to in the first place.
Still, what you said (lie / propganda) shows you're right back in it again.

 

[LooseCannon]

Allow me to be more clear then...

Aside from one (possibly out of context) quote by a Deputy Fisheries Minister, this person has not linked to any studies or articles, and if you read what they said, they make definitive statements they simply assume we will take as facts.  Personally, I am disinclined to believe anything without references and source material.

Secondly, the account was created from an anonymous mail provider and the two posts were made from wildly different IP addresses, suggesting it is being used either by one person redirecting their IP to multiple locations, or multiple people to post various replies.  This, to me, suggests a troll.  I also believe (and have no evidence for) this account was registered by an anti-seal hunt group for the sole purpose of saying their arguments and calling people liars.

 

[Dr. Eddies Wingman]

Hey, don't start a new war because some troll has written two long rants against seal hunting (and against LC) ... There is more name-calling and flaming in these posts than in the flame war you two had last year, why should we at all be discussing whether to take this person seriously or not?

I support LC's opinion on this "NewsModerator" to the full. The nick should really be PropagandaModerator.

 

[Forostar]

At the same time opponents of the hunt could say that the defenders use propaganda.
It might sure be someone (or a group) to fight this issue on a large scale. I have not much reason to disbelieve what (s)he/they say(s), but it should have been done in a more respectful way. This certainly didn't help.

So I also have no trouble with locking this topic. Go ahead.

 

[LooseCannon]

OK.  I am gonna lock it for now.  Obviously the user is being discussed by the mod team so further changes/deletions may be made.  If someone wishes to add to this discussion in a respectful and pertinent manner, they can pm a mod for consideration to reopen.