Canadian Seal Hunt Controversy

[Anonymous]

Re: O Canada, we stand on guard for thee...

S U F F E R

I N H U M AN E way of hunting

No monitoring

No witnesses allowed

From what I understood, those are claims by groups who were not allowed to observe for the reasons LooseCannon mentioned in a previous post:

However, you can't approach sealing vessels for a *reason*.  It's really dangerous.  Earlier this year our own Coast Guard fucked it up, and while towing a disable vessel, caused it to flip and kill four sailors.

Until they provide something called PROOF, I'm not going to pay attention to them.

 

[Forostar]

Re: O Canada, we stand on guard for thee...

Keep your heads in the sand if you will, others are paying attention as long as they have the chance.

Those econut-cameras have proven otherwise, LC. Not cool but it's true, just read my posts, coming from 2008 sources (not a 2005 report you posted) again.

And why not react on this sentence:

The US bans this crap already since the seventies but Europe will follow soon enough. You think Europe wants to risk a trade war with Canada, without looking well into it?

The world can't forbid Canada doing there thirsty work, but at least it's gonna cost them a lot of money using so many people, and selling less and less. Maybe the hunt is a good training for Afghanistan...

 

[LooseCannon]

Re: O Canada, we stand on guard for thee...

Forostar, there are no PhDs or DVS (is it DVS for Doctor of Veterinary Science?) or anything who sign off on these reports.

Sea Shepherd is a terrorist organization that attacks vessels by ramming, with explosives, acid, and dropping nets into propellers. They are absolutely not credible by any way, shape, or means.

And yes, I do think the EU will risk a trade war with Canada without doing appropriate research; this issue is run by emotions and high-ended morals that should not apply.  Report, after report, after report by actual scientists have signed off on the hunt.  And I don't think you understand how many people participate in the hunt: 2,500.  That's it.

Even if nobody buys the items made from sealing, it'll continue, because the sealing byproducts aren't the purpose of it.  So if you aren't interested in buying seal products? Go for it.  I'll pay the extra nickel to preserve the ecosystem.

And to suggest a 2005 report isn't valid because of 2008?  These reports take years to formulate; one of the big introductions in 2008 was the forced addition of blood-letting after an impact from a club, primarily recommended due to the major 2005 report I posted.  Which many sealers say helps the quality of the pelt, by the way.  We'll see, after 2008, a report (or reports) by people who observed the hunt as it was occurring, and who examined seal carcasses afterwards, and they will say how successful this was or wasn't.

Again, a video where an animal is being struck on the head, cut open, dripped of blood, and then skinned is going to be brutal no matter which way it is presented.  And if there is constant evidence that the methods officially sanctioned as appropriate are being ignored on a widespread scale?  Then we'll go in and deal with it.  If it's isolated incidents?  Then we'll go in and deal with those sealers.

 

[Forostar]

Re: O Canada, we stand on guard for thee...

That photo that I posted about that pig-scandal, you truly think it was taken by a scientist? Or by someone of the company?

It was someone else. Just someone who thought something should be done about it. Bring it into the news was THE way to change things. Excellent method!

 

[LooseCannon]

Re: O Canada, we stand on guard for thee...

Right, and that's good.  You're looking at pigs being over-stuffed in containers to the point wherein they are forced against bars and cut.  That's wrong.

Sealing is when you strike an animal on the head, ensure it is dead by checking to make sure the skull has been crushed, then you slit the skin, bleed it out, and skin it.  Taking videos of that and saying it's "inhumane" without educating someone on what the seal hunt is; that's wrong.  There's no context for the amount of blood, for instance.  There's no context for the actions.  Everyone knows the context of putting too many pigs into a box, and that they shouldn't be stuffed that much (on their way to be culled, no doubt).  But people don't know the context of the aftermath of sealing.

Some of the behaviour being undertaken by the sealers is certain to be wrong; I wish the government enforced it more.  But regardless, the basic practises and the majority of behaviour seem to be correct.  Reports do vary from year to year on how correct, but mostly suggest that well over 90% of cullings are handled appropriately.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: O Canada, we stand on guard for thee...

Sea Shepherd is a terrorist organization that attacks vessels by ramming, with explosives, acid, and dropping nets into propellers. They are absolutely not credible by any way, shape, or means.

WHOA! Hold on there! You may not agree with Sea Shepherd's methods, and what they are doing may sometimes be stupid, and they may even not be credible- but unless their actions are aimed at harming other people for the sake of harming them (note: actions aimed at, not their general goals), they are not terrorists.

 

[LooseCannon]

Re: O Canada, we stand on guard for thee...

Alright.  I apologize.  They are violent activists who will harm or kill humans to protect animals.  Fair?

(Though you could argue that they are attempting to use fear of their reprisals to stop humans from participating in certain activities.)

 

[Forostar]

Re: O Canada, we stand on guard for thee...

“The Canadian Government can spin all the stories it wants in Europe, but our observations reveal the truth - no new condition of licence will make this hunt more humane”

So, yes we (Europe) have heard all the arguments, we have heard what goes on in the seal hunt. We just don't agree with it. 

 

[LooseCannon]

Re: O Canada, we stand on guard for thee...

What about the muskrat?

The muskrat is an animal indigenous to North America that was introduced to Europe and now runs rampant in many areas including Germany and the Netherlands.  Because it has no natural predators, it is an overpopulous species.  It's rounded up and killed by the million by drowning, generally.  This is done to protect natural ecosystems.  Indeed, the muskrat shouldn't be in Europe at all.  But it is still not done in a humane method (I don't think anyone can argue drowning is humane), and it is done only to try and restore balance.  The animals are incinerated and are not utilized in *any* way.

“The Canadian Government can spin all the stories it wants in Europe, but our observations reveal the truth - no new condition of licence will make this hunt more humane”

So, yes we (Europe) have heard all the arguments, we have heard what goes on in the seal hunt. We just don't agree with it. 

That was a quote not from a head of a government or a government representative, but from the IFAW UK head.  IFAW doesn't speak for Europeans.  Though they may represent the bevy of opinions.  IFAW has been constantly granted observations permits and are an important regulatory body.  But they are one of the only regulatory bodies that speak out against the hunt.

 

[Forostar]

Re: O Canada, we stand on guard for thee...

Muskrats dig passages and holes in dikes, so in the Netherlands they form a safety threat.

Animals break their legs, dikes are sacking. That's why a lot of effort is being taken to catch and destroy that beast. It has no natural enemies. It can multiply very fast.

In Germany they don't do much against the rat, that's one of the reasons why in Zuid-Drenthe en Noord-Overijssel there are even more rats than the average number.

Not humane, but a direct threat, also to men. Therefore I find it not that comparable.

 

[LooseCannon]

Re: O Canada, we stand on guard for thee...

The method by which the beast is disposed of is inhumane.  True or false?  A pest, yes; I am not opposed to eliminating it.  But it is killed by drowning, then incineration - those that live through the drowning (very few, likely), would then be burnt.  Just because an animal can cause harm to men doesn't mean it shouldn't have a humane death.  Indeed, despite the fact that it is a pest, the muskrat pelt could be sold.  Right now it's just senseless in that the beasts are disposed of automatically, whereas many people could be put to work in the industry.

It is comparable, because both are being culled due to overpopulation.  Hell, the muskrat shouldn't even be there!  But it *is* there, so it is to man to control it.

The seal also has no natural enemies.  It too can multiply very fast.  When it does that, as it has in the past, it eats more fish eggs than it is supposed to.  This throws off the entire balance of the Gulf of St Lawrence/Grand Banks ecosystem because now there are very few fish.  Thus, it comes to man to control the population.

I am asking you - is drowning humane?

 

[Forostar]

Re: O Canada, we stand on guard for thee...

It is. And I understand that fishing is important.

But I wouldn't mind if someone would take images of the process. I would mind if someone's tools would be taken, someone's location- and communication tools, which can prove where that person was, when he was captured. If someone's transport would be rammed, if someone would be threatened by weapons, if someone would be taken as a prisoner.


I see this rat (plus some other animals by the way) as a more direct threat.

Dikes are really important overhere. Without them we can change the name to The Under Waterlands.

 

[LooseCannon]

Re: O Canada, we stand on guard for thee...

I'm not saying you shouldn't exterminate them.  And Canada allows pictures of the process.  Even from people who oppose it.  Where do you think the pictures and videos that are out there came from?  It's not from sneaking up on the sealers.

But maybe you're not clear on how dangerous the hunt is.

It takes place on ice floes.  Not on solid pack ice.  On ice floes.  Ships travel to small chunks of floating ice to do their culling. They land, go onto the ice floes.  Etc.  The ice can crumble and is in many cases unsafe.  Especially in recent years due to global warming.  It is also a very dangerous environment for ships due to the amount of ice.

Ships purposefully avoid each other to avoid the likelyhood of landing on the same ice floes.  When you land you reduce the integrity of a chunk of ice.  The water is very cold and hypothermia can set in very quickly before any help is available.

Contrary to popular belief, the seals are not defenseless.  Sealers have to approach them very carefully. Their bite can crush bones and people have had limbs amputated after a seal bite.  In the famous photoshoot last year, or 2 years ago, with Heather Mills, in order to make it safe for her to approach the baby seal they took pictures with, they had to tranquilize the seal.  Otherwise it would have bit her in the leg.  Possibly even the good one.

Other people on the ice flows can cause, accidentally or purposefully (as there have been accusations against the crew of the Farley Mowat of doing), a reduction in the integrity of the ice floes.  Similarly, observation ships without experienced pilots are at risk of hitting ice and doing substansive damage to their vessel.  Observers who are unaware of the dangers of a seal may approach one and be harmed.  They will not be familiar with ice and may disembark onto a very unsafe piece of it.  And of course, they might alert seals who are about to be culled, who may then cause harm to the sealers.

Every time the sealers go out they take their life in their hands before you add in other organizations.  That's why the government organizes observation tickets and such, because without an escort, these people are going into very dangerous conditions, likely without the skills needed to survive in it.

There's no cover up.  There's stupid government ministers, but there's no cover up.  The crew of the Farley Mowat violated Canadian economic law within our economic zone and in doing so, endangered both sealers and Coast Guard personnel.  Yes, we arrest people who do that.

 

[Forostar]

Re: O Canada, we stand on guard for thee...

That hunt is a voluntary undertaking, and I do not grieve much for people who take part. Do I have to see them as martyrs? Not in a lifetime. It's sad they take part into this. Why not emigrate if the situation is so bad?

About the reasons for the arrest, and the location, it solely depends on who you like to believe.

A blundering and not very convincing Minister who "has not even read Managing Fisheries for Dummies and in his zeal to kiss the bottoms of the seal-killing crowd he has thrown reason out the window", or the other party who likes to prove where the location was, but can't since everything is taken from them. They say "We were in international waters. We're a Dutch-registered vessel and had the right of free passage."

 

[LooseCannon]

Re: O Canada, we stand on guard for thee...

Foro, you can't quote these extremists and assume it is legit.  It doesn't matter where they were - they *were* inside the 200 mile economic zone where Canada enforces Canadian economic law.  They weren't outside of that.  They were in international waters for shipping, but they sure as hell weren't shipping.  They were interfering with Canadian economic activity and thus are subject to sanctions according to Canadian law - as upheld by international organizations on previous occasions.

And I am pretty sure that you have no concept of Newfoundland or Nova Scotia, so I will ask you to please not insult people who are in very difficult economic situations, people whom you think you don't even know.

 

[Forostar]

Re: O Canada, we stand on guard for thee...

I have changed that post. The small concept of that area that I possess is not the most positive one.

 

[LooseCannon]

Re: O Canada, we stand on guard for thee...

I'll remove the words losers and "dumb" but I still find it very sad.

At the moment the small concept of that area that I possess is not the most positive one.

I'm done.  When you want to discuss this instead of preaching, call me.  Till then, I'm done.

 

[Forostar]

Re: O Canada, we stand on guard for thee...

That's ok, but don't forget, I also had to hear a lot of preaching, and I stood pretty much alone (apart from Raven's contribution) in most of my views.

I'll keep the thread alive as long as there are related updates about it.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: O Canada, we stand on guard for thee...

That's ok, but don't forget, I also had to hear a lot of preaching, and I stood pretty much alone (apart from Raven's contribution) in most of my views.

Are you complaining about the fact that other people have different opinions from you?

 

[LooseCannon]

Re: O Canada, we stand on guard for thee...

That's ok, but don't forget, I also had to hear a lot of preaching, and I stood pretty much alone (apart from Raven's contribution) in most of my views.

I'll keep the thread alive as long as there are related updates about it.

Then I am changing the name of the topic to something less sarcastic and insulting to something that represents what's being posted about.

As for everything else, when you decide to learn a little about the region and about the hunt, maybe we can discuss.  Till you stop doing a Bill O'Reilly or Keith Olbermann-style "Talking Points" based on the news articles posted, there's nothing more to be said.