Any Ideas On A New Album

Nah, you just had to be condescending about it. Why does the internet bring out all the trolls?
 
That's a bit discourteous (Chris R.), given how much of your own opinion you've just posted (--twice! :p). The guy's just saying what he thinks. (He's not trolling, is he?) But, yeh, I agree with quite a lot of your analysis. Problem is when anyone just talks about one member (or a few) they inevitably underplay the role of others; & it doesn't come across very well i.e. you come across as a Adrian fanboy. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing...

But I don't honestly care that much, provided Maiden still produce a couple more albums, the line up stays the same, & they all retire happy.
 
Fair enough, though I tried in my first "long post" to be fair to the band members that were at the heart of the discussion (Adrian and Steve). I am an Adrian fanboy, admittedly, but I also acknowledged this up front and state what I saw were his weaknesses and that he does his best work with Steve or Bruce (or Mikee). It wasn't all rah-rah, mind you. Maturin's issue seems to be with a perceived slight to Gers. But, I didn't say anything negative about Gers (unless you count that I consider him a minor contributor, and that is in comparison to Adrian, Steve, and Bruce), whereas he said quite a bit negative about Adrian. I was trying to calm the waters, not stir them up. Since the reunion, Gers has had diminishing songwriting credits, whereas Adrian has had more and more input as time as gone on. I see that trend continuing, as Steve has relied more and more on Adrian's contributions.
 
I only said that jokingly ("fanboy"); your analysis is pretty sound, & I agree.
(You can be an Adrian fanboy if you like. I'm just a bit more of a Dave fanboy myself...)

Anyway, the counter argument might be --is this good? i.e. Gers not being able to contribute perhaps as much as he'd like. It's not like the guy can't write a song.
 
No worries, I didn't take offense to the "fanboy" comment. It's probably pretty accurate, seeing as how I follow where he, H, goes. And, I love Davey- I wouldn't have named my #2 son Adrian David if I didn't think highly of Mr. Murray as well! As for the "Is this a good thing?" query- I think so, but then (obviously) it is a matter of opinion. Well, to a degree. Take a poll of relatively unbiased Maiden fans and most will agree that songs like "22 Acacia Avenue," "Flight of Icarus," "Two Minutes to Midnight," "Wasted Years," and "Can I Play With Madness" are classics, and that's just picking one from each of the classic-era albums. Those songs have held up over time and figure in the modern-era setlist. Granted, other Smith songs aren't as good, but by and large, his track record is pretty good. He writes strong melodies, will write songs that break out of the Maiden box (not an opinion, just look at Isle of Avalon or Starblind), and Bruce has said in the past that he enjoys Adrian's writing b/c it's easier for him to sing over/to/with. Maiden's resurgence in the past 6-7 years coincides with more writing credits for Adrian, so it could be argued that the fans, worldwide, have responded with their wallets. So, to some extent it's subjective, but there are indicators that Steve and the majority of the fans like what he's done so far.

As for Gers, I will agree that can write a song (I like "Be Quick or Be Dead," "Blood Brothers," "Montsequer," and "No More Lies") but they sometimes seem derivative of either his earlier work ("The Legacy" vs "The Talisman"), or Adrian's earlier work (i.e.- "The Fallen Angel" vs "Montsequer"). He tends to rely on the sort of Celtic figure/riff ("Dance of Death," "The Pilgrim," etc.) too much. From the 90s CDs, I can't find a Gers-penned song that remains in the setlist since the reunion. That can't all be put on his songwriting, but where are his classics from that era? Also, how much of the success of the post-reunion Gers songs can be attributed to him (since Steve says he and Dave only bring in bits of ideas, whereas Adrian brings in full demos and will contribute lyrics, also) and how much can be attributed to Steve, or Bruce? Have there been any Gers-only songs? Again, I'm not necessarily bashing, just answering the question put to me. I do like a few of his songs, just not other aspects of his playing.
 
Hmm... problem is literally nothing now remains on live setlists from the 90's; not just Gers tracks. I mean, what do we have left?: FotD & Blood Brothers --that's about it. I agree, that kind of folky element to Gers style is a little over-prevalent, but at least it's brought something that nobody else in the band is writing. The Talisman is a very good track. But, I'd agree, he's hardly prolific, recently anyway. I have to say though (as others point out) --anything that Dave does put his name to (no sure, as you say, how much he brings to the table) is usually very, very good. TFF is very Adrian song credit heavy. I suppose we'll see how it stacks up in thirty years when Maiden are long gone. I agree about his Janick's playing.
 
Chris R. said:
Since the reunion, Gers has had diminishing songwriting credits, whereas Adrian has had more and more input as time as gone on. I see that trend continuing, as Steve has relied more and more on Adrian's contributions.
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We'll see. I clearly remember a comment from Steve that he "coincidently" went to Adrian first.
Chris R. said:
Those songs have held up over time and figure in the modern-era setlist. Granted, other Smith songs aren't as good, but by and large, his track record is pretty good. He writes strong melodies, will write songs that break out of the Maiden box (not an opinion, just look at Isle of Avalon or Starblind), ....
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Great songs, not in the setlist.
Chris R. said:
From the 90s CDs, I can't find a Gers-penned song that remains in the setlist since the reunion. That can't all be put on his songwriting, but where are his classics from that era?
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Not sure what you mean by classic, but some people hear great tracks by Gers from this era, others don't. I do: E.g. The Unbeliever, and more from TXF -> Great songs, not in the setlist.

To be frank, the question you ask is not that fair, because this era has just one remaining classic when you rely on the setlist. Maiden is allergic for their nineties material. His material from this unpopular period didn't have the same chances as later material from the "metal is popular again" period. That does not mean that the songs from that period are so bad. They are perhaps more difficult to digest compared to the more easy listening material that Adrian wrote in the 1980s. Some remained in the set, and Maiden lately prefers to do it the easy way. Easy songs to play, easy songs to digest. Big part of the audience = happy.

But boy, I wouldn't mind to get some darker and more complex stuff from the nineties.
If only Maiden would have the guts to do that again. Then we're talking.

Actually, the fact that some stuff from more recent albums has been more often in the setlist than the nineties influences many peoples' opinions. I can't prove it, and it works differently for every individual, but I seriously think that a large number of people are very enthusiastic about a song after they've seen it live. If they haven't, they need to use their own imagination, and their taste and open mindness, to fully appreciate a never heard work.
Chris R. said:
Also, how much of the success of the post-reunion Gers songs can be attributed to him (since Steve says he and Dave only bring in bits of ideas, whereas Adrian brings in full demos and will contribute lyrics, also) and how much can be attributed to Steve, or Bruce? Have there been any Gers-only songs?¨
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Apparently you don't know if there have not been either. Did you actually know that he wrote the lyrics for The Pilgrim? And I am pretty sure he wrote a big deal of Dance of Death (focusing on your arguments: a song that lasted longer and better than Paschendale).
Chris R. said:
Again, I'm not necessarily bashing, just answering the question put to me.
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You're not answering questions about Gers. You ask questions. I'd say, let's find answers and we'll how unimportant he has been for Maiden's success in recent years (in comparison to Adrian and Dave).

By the way: I am not a Gers fanboy, and I dislike The Talisman (worst song in ages), but I really like The Alchemist, and previous recent songs he contributed to. On Brave New World he totally outshone Adrian in songwriting, but indeed, on the last two albums Adrian is the man.

I am very curious how this will be on the next album. As long as songs are good it doesn't matter that much of course, but I am nerd about song credits and keep all possibilities open. Gers had one song for Virtual XI and look at what he did two years later.
 
I agree, again, with the "heard live" argument (--that's actually live, or on live albums.) Loads of stuff from the 90's would undoubtedly compare favourably with some of the live favourites of today (or any other era). Of course, it can go too far i.e. FotD, with people now sick of hearing it.
 
Forostar said:
On Brave New World he totally outshone Adrian in songwriting
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This comparison is not fair. Janick had four writing credits on the album, two of which were actually written for Virtual XI. Janick had been in the band for a while whereas Adrian had only been in the band back again for about a year or so. He still came up with the main riff and the great solo in The Wicker Man, which is my favorite off that album.

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When I see the name Adrian Smith on song credits before the release of the album, I get excited about that song and most of the time, it doesn't turn out to be disappointing. The more the Smith, the more the specialness and excitement, at least for right now.

Even though I don't like Jan's soloing style, I do like his creative input and he's one of the reason why this lineup is the best of the band's history.
 
Smith's writing style is certainly more exciting. Gers has been following the same sort of formula since Virtual, and it's starting to get old. Talisman is a huge bore, and a lot of fans seem to have a distaste for The Alchemist although I think it is fantastic. Pilgrim, on the other hand, is my least favorite from AMOLAD.
 
I like Talisman... And I think that a lot of songs from the 90's would be adopted by the audience id they played them. For example I think that the best songs in Rock in Rio DVD are Sign of the Cross and the Clansman. Only those 2, maybe some from NPFTD or FOTD and you would have an awesome setlist that could still have a lot of classics from other eras.
 
Flash: not only in quantity, but also in quality. I'm not a big fan of OOTSP but I'd take the other three over Adrian's contributions any day.
The Flash said:
He still came up with the main riff and the great solo in The Wicker Man, which is my favorite off that album.
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That main riff is not that great when you know Running Wild (a 1978 Judas Priest song). Wicker Man has a great solo indeed, but not as great as Janick's in the following song on that album.
 
Forostar said:
Flash: not only in quantity, but also in quality. I'm not a big fan of OOTSP but I'd take the other three over Adrian's contributions any day.

That main riff is not that great when you know Running Wild (a 1978 Judas Priest song). Wicker Man has a great solo indeed, but not as great as Janick's in the following song on that album.
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I didn't object to quantity in my post. I objected to the fact that Janick had been in the band for 10 years, did four consecutive albums with them. Adrian had only just returned and still managed to pull off my favorite of the album. I find Dream of Mirrors overrated on this forum, The Mercenary is my least favorite off the album (along with The Fallen Angel). I like The Wicker Man better than Ghost of the Navigator. Out of the Silent Planet may only make the comparison equal. But due to the fact that Adrian had been in the band for a short amount of time, props to him.

I know Running Wild and I think the discussion about it being ripped-off is complete nonsense. It's a basic chord progression and it has a bit of variation, too. The Wicker Man's main riff sounds great on its own, I don't need to pass on its greatness just because it sounds similar to an old song. The main riff of Hallowed Be Thy Name sounds really like the riff on the second part of Genghis Khan, but I'm not mad about it.

The Wicker Man's solo crushes Ghost of the Navigator's solo, at least for me.
 
Forostar said:
We'll see. I clearly remember a comment from Steve that he "coincidently" went to Adrian first.

Great songs, not in the setlist.

Not sure what you mean by classic, but some people hear great tracks by Gers from this era, others don't. I do: E.g. The Unbeliever, and more from TXF -> Great songs, not in the setlist.
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(re: Isle of Avalon and Starblind)- I didn't say they were setlist staples, I mentioned them because they "break out of the Maiden box"- i.e.- 4/4 time, a gallop. They've got the hallmarks of classic Maiden songs, especially the nice harmony section on Starblind, but both songs are not exactly typical. That was one of my main points about Adrian's creative writing style- that he's willing to go into territory not normally, or often approached by the other songwriters. As for "classic" tracks, I mean songs that are emblematic of Maiden, their "hits" as it were. "FOTD" is a classic, but Steve wrote it by himself. What other Gers songs from the 90s compare favorably with any of the songs I mentioned from the 80s? I'll answer, since I've been asking questions- IMO, none. What is the reception like in concert? Answer- I saw them this summer and there was a noticeable dropoff in crowd reception to "ATSS." Now, that could simply be a factor of the American audience. In South America it might have gone down a storm. I acknowledge that the 90s was a bad time for metal, but that doesn't mean good music wasn't being made (and often overlooked, like AoB, TCW, Fight/Halford, some stuff by Flotsam and Jetsam, Megadeth, King's X, etc.).

But it's still a matter of taste- we may never get to the answers you're looking for because everyone has different tastes. I hear the 90s material from Maiden, especially from X-Factor and VXI and find it lacking. Yes, my opinion, but obviously others held the same opinion, judging from record sales and reception to the tours. And, as I said earlier, I don't think Gers is necessarily to blame, but there was enough drop off in talent between him and Adrian, Blaze and Bruce, and the music environment to cause Maiden to fall off the radar. Environment of the 90s aside, I don't think Maiden made strong, quality music, overall. I don't think it's that the material is overlooked for current tour setlists, I just don't think it compares well. Not sure what other questions about Gers I was supposed to answer (can't sift through all the others posts to find them while I'm replying here), but suffice it to say that in my opinion, he's not as strong a songwriter or guitarist as Adrian. Personal opinion? Probably, and I'll acknowledge as much.

As for Gers lyrics contributions, I stand corrected. I did not know he contributed the lyrics to "The Pilgrim," though I do wonder why the music has a Middle Eastern flavor to it and the lyrics are about the "New World" and early European intrusion into the Americas.
 
Chris R. said:
(re: Isle of Avalon and Starblind)- because they "break out of the Maiden box"- i.e.- 4/4 time, a gallop.
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That Maiden box you're talking about ended quite a while ago. There's a reason why many (including myself) consider this band more as a progressive heavy rock band now rather than a heavy metal band.

I consider Starblind to be the greatest song ever written, but that's another story.
 
I don't think Maiden has turned into a progressive rock band. For every Isle of Avalon, there is a Final Frontier and I'm perfectly happy with that.
 
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