America: Land of the Free or Home of the Dangerous?

My advice:  stick to the major cities.  In Los Angeles, for example, you would be hard-pressed to find one in twenty people who believe in strict creationism.  In Chicago, the same.  In Kansas City, which is a fairly cosmopolitan place notwithstanding its location, the number may drop to one in five or ten, though you will find that most residents would consider themselves Christians, maybe even what you call "fundamentalist."  Go about an hour west, though, to Topeka, Kansas (my hometown, and also that of the infamous Fred Phelps), and things change -- even more so in the rural areas around that town.  People have views that I find totally irrational, and often offensive.  Still, things have progressed quite a bit since I was in high school.  Then, a student dare not come out of the closet lest he get the crap kicked out of him.  Now, there are quite a few openly gay people in my former neighborhood.  Indeed, it is partly because of American society's generally increasing acceptance of less "traditional" lifestyles that you have a reactionary, highly vocal element of society that tries to speak out against such lifestyles, usually for religious reasons.  Yeah, they're nut-jobs, but that's part of what makes America great.  More on that in a moment. 

What is troubling about some of these comments is that some people seem to regard "fundamentalist" Christians as stereotypically intolerant, ignorant and perhaps even evil.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Most devout Christians I know -- my wife's family included -- are some of the kindest, friendliest and most forgiving and accepting people you will ever meet.  (You know, kind of how Jesus Christ actually taught people to be.)  Just because someone reads the Bible daily does not make them a racist or homophobe or bigot.  I know, I know, no one on this thread actually wrote that, but Forostar's implication that the existence of a large number of devout Christians is a reason NOT to like the United States is seriously misguided. 

Yes, we have our share of bigots.  So does everyone.  And yes, the Constitution expressly protects people who say things that other people might find offensive, so occasionally the bigots and religious nut-jobs get a forum here that they might not get elsewhere.  For example, you could publicly insist that the Holocaust never happened and not get prosecuted criminally, which apparently is not the case in some European countries.  You'd get hooted down as a deluded evil bastard, but you wouldn't be thrown in jail.  In my view, not only is this not a bad thing, the ability to openly speak your mind about any ideology, religion or persuasion -- no matter how misguided -- is actually one of the best things about America.  It is not without its costs, but I wouldn't trade it for anything.  Similarly, the fact that Americans have such diversity of opinions and beliefs is one of its greatest strengths.  The "marketplace of ideas" truly exists here. 
 
wasted155 said:
If I am reading correctly, the idea is that a gay couple could go to Canada to get married and the state in which they reside would have to accept that.  I'd love to see that court battle!

The problem is that gay married couple has to go to Canada to get a divorce.
 
cornfedhick said:
What is troubling about some of these comments is that some people seem to regard "fundamentalist" Christians as stereotypically intolerant, ignorant and perhaps even evil.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Most devout Christians I know -- my wife's family included -- are some of the kindest, friendliest and most forgiving and accepting people you will ever meet.  (You know, kind of how Jesus Christ actually taught people to be.)  Just because someone reads the Bible daily does not make them a racist or homophobe or bigot.  I know, I know, no one on this thread actually wrote that, but Forostar's implication that the existence of a large number of devout Christians is a reason NOT to like the United States is seriously misguided.

Well, it wouldn't be the (only) reason to not like the U.S., but I indeed believe that most "fundamentalist" Christians and their moral issues are not tolerant towards anyone who deviates from their biblical values.

Someone who reads the bible daily doesn't have to be a "fundamentalist" Christian of course. Perhaps we have different definitions for the term, but I see "fundamentalist" Christians as people who take the script in a literal way, and who try to force their ideas on others by indoctrination and who provide small or no room for other thoughts.
 
I agree with Foro, also, of course there are exceptions, but it is safe to say that most fundamentalist are bible thumping, homophobic, intolerant individuals...
 
Especially if you neatly put them into a package, first.

I've known some fundamentalists who are exactly how the public describes them, and I know some who are rather less so.  I grew up with a few fundamentalist baptist girls who were very nice people.  One of them absolutely SNAPPED on me in 2004 when I said I'd probably vote for Kerry if I was an American.  It was rather comic.

So I guess, let's keep the package :)
 
cornfedhick said:
um, can you say "irony"?

Good one.  And i have to agree.  I think there is a gap in verbage here.  I think there may be some mistaking fundamentalists for 'christian right', which is more along the lines of closed-mindedness. 
 
Wasted makes an apt distinction beween the "Christian Right" (embodied by some political groups such as the Christian Coalition or, before that, the Moral Majority) and "fundamentalist" Christian faith.  As I understand it -- and I do not profess to be an expert -- "fundamentalists" simply believe that the Gospels are true.  Namely, Christ was the son of God, was born from a virgin mother, performed miracles, and was resurrected after his crucifixion-- it all really happened.  Many of my family members would fall within that definition of fundamentalism, and they are not at all  bigoted.  (I, for one, am skeptical of all this to say the least.  For example, I learned on a tourist trip to Rome that the question of the Immaculate Conception, and whether it would be accepted as true, was the subject of a lengthy and heated debate within the Vatican.  Hardly the unerring "word of God" if it was put to a vote by men, in my view.)  So, let's stipulate: one bad thing about America is the Christian Coalition and any other group that tries to justify repressive and bigoted political views by reference to a (warped) gloss on Christian teachings.  Back to my original point, however: a GREAT thing about America is that people who hold such views, even if I disagree with them, are free to speak them without fear of government persecution (if not civilian ridicule). 
 
It depends on what people exactly say or do. Just reciting a bible (for God's sake ;) ) isn't that bad indeed, but to connect its content with certain groups is something else.

I do not find that a great thing about America.

Something else:
I am a bit surprised that I haven't seen much (or any?) reaction on the video footage I posted 4 days ago.

I thought that this view on the voracious march of godliness was an interesting illustration.
 
Forostar said:
I am a bit surprised that I haven't seen much (or any?) reaction on the video footage I posted 4 days ago.

I thought that this view on the voracious march of godliness was an interesting illustration.

Well, I don't understand Dutch, so I just had to listen to the English coments on it.  As far as an 'interesting illustration', I would have to say that it is a small cross segment of the larger group you would call 'fundamental'.  There are people that take the bible as the literal word of god who have tried to sort out dinosaurs for decades.  There are actually archeology magazines that are devoted to 'proving' evolution and dinosaurs to be false.  One part of that bit I found interesting was the part of the anti-abortionists and their view on the candidates.  Unfortunatley, that does show how some people do vote here--there are those that are just 'one issue' voters. 

Forostar said:
It depends on what people exactly say or do. Just reciting a bible (for God's sake ;) ) isn't that bad indeed, but to connect its content with certain groups is something else.

I do not find that a great thing about America.

It mite be late, but I'm not sure what you mean by this.  Do you mean that when someone reads the bible and says 'homosexuals are evil', that is bad?  Trust me, I don't agree with those statements and I don't like to hear people say things like that, but also, one has to take the 'good with the bad' when it comes to free speech.  And, if we are soft enough in the head to be swayed by statements like that, without questioning them, then that is where the real problem lays.  Luckily, thoughts and ideas are constantly questioned and we are able to make progress because of it. (If I misunderstood your statement, I'm sorry)
 
Thanks for your reaction, and for watching that video (which contained plenty of English). I think that's indeed what I meant. E.g. such a popular museum doesn't give me a feeling of progress, but it's good that you sense some.
 
I thought about this question - What can we do to serve the world better? - and its responses the other day. Now, a few people responded by saying - elect a Democrat.

So, my question is, how will electing a Democrat help the US to serve the world better? Why would it be any different to a Republican president? We can't assume that either a]a Republican president will be another George W. Bush or b]a Democrat will not (after all, Tony Blair was very much in with Bush in the war in the middle east).

The next President, by all accounts, is likely to be a Democrat - so what if this incoming President starts to have an even greater strained relationship with some of the middle east countries and the price of oil still becomes a major factor? What if Israel is still their only concern?

A lot of talk by these candidates may remain just that after the election - words. We can't really trust any of the buggers, but one thing is for sure - at least from my viewpoint - another Bush will be a backward step. Whether they be Democrat or Republican, I don't really care, as long as the relationship with the rest of the world is not one of bullying.

Just a thought.
 
I think the "elect a democrat" was more of a joke than anything else, because I agree, who cares what party the president is from, they both suck. However, the dems supposedly are the party of the people while Republicans notoriously serve big business, hate social programs and are more trigger happy than Dems.
 
Forostar said:
Thanks for your reaction, and for wathing that video (which contained plenty of English). I think that's indeed what I meant. E.g. such a popular museum doesn't give me a feeling of progress, but it's good that you sense some.

Ok, cool-- the thing is, as to the 'popularity' of the museum, 250k people isn't all that many, really.  Wrigley Field, for Chicago Cubs baseball, probably has 250k people a week go through it.  Disney World, I bet 250k is too small a number for them to keep track of on a weekly basis.  So, 250k people seems large, but in reality, not so much.  Honestly, I'm only 6 hours from Kentucky, and there is no one that I know of that actually even knows of this museum. 

The progress that I see is for a longer span of time. 50 years ago, the civil rights movement began to have some huge momentum-- what was once common, to have seperate bathrooms and buses, doesn't happen anymore.  The equality of people is growing-- sure its not perfect, but it is getting better.  Without the freedom of speech that we have, Martin Luther King, Jr wouldn't have had a place to stand at that time.  With out it, there would be no gay pride parades.  --thats the progress that I see.  25 years ago, many people from the town I live in wouldn't talk to a black or a gay person (sad but true), now, you will find them all hanging out together with out a second thought.

So, yes, there will always be some backwards (to my thinking) people out there that are making a stand for stagnancy, but there are also many that are pushing forward.  I totally see where people outside the US think a lot of these things, because thats what the media spreads around the world, but I really wish that you could see how cool it really is on the inside.  There are people that I am forced to add to the list of 'people that can kiss my ass' everyday, but there are some here that are very cool and are really trying  to make a difference.
 
I think, even in Holland, you can find people who think evolution is wrong.  In smaller percentages, but remember...the Pilgrims came to the New World because the Old World was changing faster than they liked.  The USA has always been very fearful of change - at least, certain parts of it.
 
But we're talking about a huge, new and modern museum here. This development, this "path to isolation", is not comparable to any other conservative mass-indoctrination in any other western country, is it?
 
I challenge you to find me a western country as large and as diverse as the United States, though.  While I do continue to disagree with it, it is their right to make whatosever museums they want.  I, myself?  I ridicule them.  But people are allowed to be ignorant.
 
LooseCannon said:
I challenge you to find me a western country as large and as diverse as the United States, though.

It surprises me a bit that you skip your own country so easily (would you explain this?), but how on earth could I find such another big western country.

I think I can't find it, but could anyone find a more dogmatic country in the western world?
And which other developed country is more characterized by relatively high levels of gun violence and homicide?

Back to the topic title again:

Less than 5% of the world population lives in the USA. But from all prisoners in the world, 25% live in the United States! 2,3 million prisoners! China who have 4 times as many inhabitants are on the second place with 1.6 million prisoners. Out of every 100.000 people in the USA 751 are in jail! Only Russia comes close with 627 per 100.000. The average of all countries is 125.

Important cause is the fact that weapons are so easy to get. Next to that, in other countries it's less easy to get jailed for non-violent delicts. On the top of all this is the average length of doing time.

USA: 16 months
Great-Britain: 7 months
Canada: 5 months

According to specialists, this is because of the juridical system. A lot of judges and prosecutors are chosen, that's why they are more sensitive to the civilians, who are mostly for a strong crime policy.

I got these not very happy US facts from a 1 month old Dutch article in a major newspaper, which used the New York Times as a source.
 
There are actually archeology magazines that are devoted to 'proving' evolution and dinosaurs to be false. 

Dinosaurs are just a big misunderstanding based on the lack of knowledge early civilized humans had at the time. Those bones are dragon bones......
 
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