USA Politics
- Thread starter Genghis Khan
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Flaming Blimp Crash
Ancient Mariner
Quote I've read while I've seen a fair amount of people having takes (some way out there) on my social media feed - "In being in a situation where you don't know anything, sometimes it's best to just shut the fuck up."
UpTheIrons
Ancient Mariner
This would have been good advice for those who made fools of themselves claiming pre-emptively, in this thread and more widely, that the killer was far-right/groyper, now that more factual evidence has been revealed and the true picture is much clearer. Unfortunately, people across the political spectrum are quick to run with stories, real or imagined, that reinforce their beliefs.
Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
That's a mischaracterization of what happened. The very first thing that happened was the right wing blaming violent leftists, without any evidence, which turned out to be wrong.
After that, based on the messages on the bullet casings and the alleged reddit account of the roommate, people said the shooter is likely a groyper. This didn't come out of nowhere, it was an educated guess based on actual evidence.
Now it seems the shooter, like so many before him, doesn't have a coherent political stance and seems to be largely apolitical.
I know it's easier to look down on others when you twist what happened, but let's stay with what actually happened, how about that?
Jer
'Til Tomorrow
Yes, let’s. To review what you said:let's stay with what actually happened, how about that?
The Vanity Fair article cited by Mosh only noted speculation that the shooter might be a groyper because of a single referenced meme. No credible news outlet reported on this theory because there was barely any substance behind it at all, but salivating left-wingers jumped all over it anyway, acting as if there were steadily mounting evidence that this was supposedly true. Both you and Mosh were caught up in the spell, but I haven’t seen any mea culpas from either of you yet. So much for intellectual honesty…
Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
Given what we know now about the shooter and the partner, him being a groyper isn't 100% off the table yet. He's very clearly an online meme edgelord, and the Venn diagram between those ans groypers has a not so insignificant overlap. So no, there's no reason for a mea culpa from the left yet.
We know that he's not a leftist. That was an accusation without any merit or evidence. The groyper stuff? There was (and is!) actual evidence for that. My point was never to prove he was far right, it was to call out the baseless lies by the right wing claiming leftists.
But once again y'all are too invested in attacking anyone left, while conservatives are getting off scott free. It's quite boring to be honest.
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If you go back and read the post where I linked to the vanity fair article, I acknowledged that nothing had been confirmed. There has been more clarity after today’s hearing and I don’t mind admitting that it seems I was wrong about this guy having a right leaning ideology. No need for Jer’s usual brand of smugness there.
I do stand by my point that the rising problem of political violence is mainly thanks to Trump and his supporters, particularly those who have/had prominent platforms such as Kirk. I also think if you look at how elected officials have responded to this (not pundits or online people), there is a pretty clear display of irresponsibility and disregard for civil rights, unity, the first amendment, etc etc coming from the right.
I do stand by my point that the rising problem of political violence is mainly thanks to Trump and his supporters, particularly those who have/had prominent platforms such as Kirk. I also think if you look at how elected officials have responded to this (not pundits or online people), there is a pretty clear display of irresponsibility and disregard for civil rights, unity, the first amendment, etc etc coming from the right.
UpTheIrons
Ancient Mariner
Nonsense. The guy has a transgender partner and he stated he killed Kirk because, as per his own words,he 'had enough of his hatred. Some hate can't be negotiated out.'
To rule out him being a leftist but claim he might still be a groyper because he's very online (something common amongst political extremists on both sides) is either extremely disingenuous or downright delusional.
Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
You are aware that trans people exist on all sides of the political spectrum? There are prominent MAGA trans people for fuck's sake.
We have his digital footprint: He is not a leftist. He's not MAGA either. He's a mostly apolotical zoomer heavy into memes. I'm not even making the argument that he's definitely a groyper; I'm explaining why one side made completely baseless claims, while the other side in this discussion had some evidence to base their claims on.
And don't even start with "disingenuous"; you're the one who tried to shame me for engaging in this thread and calling out fallacies and lies by others. Yet you never called any of the unsubstantiated (and now objectively wrong) claims by folks like @Detective Beauregard "weird and obsessive". This thread sees the progressives being attacked time and time again, yet conservatives are left to spread all their conspiracies as they please.
My main point has been proven right. This was - once again - not an example of left wing violence. So my demand for an apology for baselessly claiming the shooter being a violent leftist is still valid.
As Mosh correctly pointed out, this era of unrest is directly influenced by Trump, MAGA, and people like Shapiro, Crowder and Kirk. The right wing instantly threatened violence against the left, and your first instinct is to mischaracterize what happened in the thread to feel morally superior to others.
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Jer
'Til Tomorrow
No, but it’s a pretty solid 99% off the table.
You sure about that? You seemed pretty eager to pin some more hypocrisy points on the right, enough to amplify the thinnest of evidence into a supposed escalating drumbeat of “truth”.
That characterization doesn’t apply to me at all, but you’re so lost in your posturing that you apparently didn’t notice.
I’m center left. I despise most of what the right wing is doing, and I agree they’re responsible for a much larger portion of political violence in the U.S. than the left is. But the left isn’t blameless, and neither are intellectually dishonest people of all political persuasions. I’m just calling bullshit where I see it, and right now it’s coming from you.
Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
Which isn't 100%, thanks for agreeing. As I explained multiple times, the groyper shit at least had actual evidence behind it.
Yes, I'm very sure about that and you can easily verify it by my comments in this thread. I had two points consistently throughout the thread: To push back against the baseless accusation of this being a result of leftist violence (and by extension show that in general political violence is overwhelmingly a feature of the right wing) and to explain (not celebrate!) what an awful human being Kirk was, that the wax he died didn't redeem the way he lived (to paraphrase the phenomenal speech by a pastor) and to explain why many of us aren't mourning his death, even if it was horrific.
No, it doesn't, you're right. There are other regular users in this thread who constantly attack the left and progressives in general. You sometimes snipe at the "woke" far left, but for you this is personal. You go out of your way to attack me, because I had the nerve to call you out on your transphobia and the misinformation you were spreading. And don't even start with your trans family member; "I have a black friend" was never a valid defense for racists either.
That's absolute bullshit and you know it. If you cared about calling bullshit you'd call out Detective for spreading baseless lies about the left. Yet you don't do that, do you? You only care about scoring cheap points against me, by setting up strawmen and mischaracterizing my posts. Turns out my main point throughout the thread was correct, so if you actually have any integrity and care about calling out bullshit you'd start with the conservatives. But we both know you don't care at all about that; you have to attack me, regardless of how much this betrays your hypocrisy. At least I know, if nothing else, that you'll always be there to read my posts though; I'm almost flattered
Now feel free to clap back so that you can pretend you "won" this exchange and we can go back to ignoring each other.
UpTheIrons
Ancient Mariner
Why are you sticking to this falsehood? As per CNN and many other news sources, the killer's own mother is recorded in court documents stating that he had 'become more political and started to lean more to the left - becoming more pro-gay and trans-rights oriented'.
Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
It's not a falsehood. His family became hardcore MAGA. Of course they'd call him having a trans partner left wing. Sexuality and gender aren't exclusive to the left.
As I said: We have his digital footprint. We can plainly see that he's not a leftist. MAGA cultists are not a great judge of character when we can judge his statements and comments ourselves.
Yax
Ancient Mariner
So, in the aftermath of his assassination, the Trump administration and the MAGA cult base are cracking down on free speech and 1st amendment rights, completely at odds with 20+ years of public stances.
One example: Courts have ruled that a baker can refuse service to a gay wedding over personal belief, something Republicans hailed as common sense, as free speech and free will trumps everything. AG Bondi says that anybody unwilling to print a flyer celebrating Charlie Kirk will get prosecuted.
One example: Courts have ruled that a baker can refuse service to a gay wedding over personal belief, something Republicans hailed as common sense, as free speech and free will trumps everything. AG Bondi says that anybody unwilling to print a flyer celebrating Charlie Kirk will get prosecuted.
jazz from hell
Ancient Mariner
That's absolute bullshit and you know it. If you cared about calling bullshit you'd call out Detective for spreading baseless lies about the left. Yet you don't do that, do you? You only care about scoring cheap points against me, by setting up strawmen and mischaracterizing my posts. Turns out my main point throughout the thread was correct, so if you actually have any integrity and care about calling out bullshit you'd start with the conservatives. But we both know you don't care at all about that; you have to attack me, regardless of how much this betrays your hypocrisy. At least I know, if nothing else, that you'll always be there to read my posts though; I'm almost flattered
Now feel free to clap back so that you can pretend you "won" this exchange and we can go back to ignoring each other.
OMFGZbbq
jazz from hell
Ancient Mariner
JD Vance hosting Kirk's podcast said towards the end:
"Now, the most important truth Charlie told is this, that long ago a man begotten, not made, came down from heaven and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary and became man. For our sake, he was crucified under Pontius Pilate and suffered death and was buried and rose again on the third day. Charlie believed, as I do, that all the truth he told flowed from that fundamental principle."
All the truth WHO told? "The man" or Charlie? Both of them? Are they one?? I know it's the USA, but what the hell is this.
"Now, the most important truth Charlie told is this, that long ago a man begotten, not made, came down from heaven and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary and became man. For our sake, he was crucified under Pontius Pilate and suffered death and was buried and rose again on the third day. Charlie believed, as I do, that all the truth he told flowed from that fundamental principle."
All the truth WHO told? "The man" or Charlie? Both of them? Are they one?? I know it's the USA, but what the hell is this.
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Trevoire
Ancient Mariner
Am I the only person that finds the extreme religiosity in the US REALLY fucking weird?
I see so much of it in Republican politics "Trumps chosen by god to save America" "Charlie is with Jesus now" etc.
For them it's not just some nice fluffy thing to say. The truly believe that this stuff is actually real. It's really concerning seeing that level of belief in fairy tales not just in the general public, but in some of the most important positions of power in the country.
I see so much of it in Republican politics "Trumps chosen by god to save America" "Charlie is with Jesus now" etc.
For them it's not just some nice fluffy thing to say. The truly believe that this stuff is actually real. It's really concerning seeing that level of belief in fairy tales not just in the general public, but in some of the most important positions of power in the country.
Yax
Ancient Mariner
Yes, and this needs to be viewed in the lens of the movement of Christianity that Charlie Kirk aligned with since 2020 (and that Trump has courted) explicitly calls for Christians to take control over the 7 major spheres in society.
Seven Mountain Mandate - Wikipedia
jazz from hell
Ancient Mariner
Pretty sure Trump doesn't believe in any of it. I doubt Vance does either, and if he does, his version feels like an obscene parody.