USA Politics

You're certainly allowed to make fun of various public figures if you see fit, as long as it's not driving the conversation down a rabbit hole of yelling back and forth, or in the case of Iron Maiden, going to make a moderator invoke the RLonger rule for lessening overall enjoyment. However, don't get upset when someone calls out an hominem, either, especially if you're trying to have a serious political debate.

However, you will all post with a modicum of respect towards one another, and I feel this conversation is trending towards that not being true. That is true of multiple people over the last little bit, so I'm not singling each other out. If you cannot post calmly and politely, without snide comments at each other, then I will thread ban you. And that's not based on who I think is right or wrong, but who cares for this community and treats it with respect.
 
Azas said:
Vaenyr often repeated that Kamala didn’t run on a woke or progressive agenda—and that’s fair. But it’s also fair to acknowledge that, for some people, the situation in the country had already gone too far.
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My one counterargument is that this is not a result of reality, but rather a result of propaganda from outlets such as Fox News and the campaigns of Trump and other Republicans.

I live in what’s considered the South and I can tell you that ‘woke’ barely exists here. My partner (a trans man) was discriminated against at work and nothing was done about it despite his HR report (long story). Minorities in America have far from taken over and if ‘woke’ actually exists then I’d love to see it.
 
iu
 
I actually do think there is a conversation to be had about political correctness and how some people on the left engage with ideas that they aren’t comfortable with.

But…

1: The right has problems with this too.

2: I can’t take any argument that uses the term “wokeness” unironically seriously.

3: This all seems secondary to the civil rights violations happening now and the party in power conducting the biggest wealth transfer in history to destroy the middle class. This nebulous discussion on wokeness is the argument that the aristocracy wants you to have because it’s a distraction.
 
I think that entertainers, particularly those in comedy, film, tv, or music who thrive on pushing the envelope on what’s offensive can be hyper vigilant on censorship.

Growing up in the US, I noticed it was almost always the religious right wing who wanted to censor. The PMRC was an exception but I don’t think it reflected the broader Liberal/Dem views on free speech.

So, public figures fought that battle and, by the mid-90s-early 2000s, it looked like they won.

But, emerging around 2014 or so, the left started wanting to shame, but not ban necessarily, some types of speech they considered offensive.

I think the reflexive reaction among many of the Gen X or Boomer generation celebrities was to be against what they considered a new wave of censorship only coming from the left this time.

It’s probably less a stand against the values of the left or the right and more about the free speech principle regardless of where they perceive the threat to it coming from.

Hence, you have someone like Alice Cooper complaining that people are too easily offended these days.

But, they were also too easily offended for different reasons back during his 1970s career peak.
 
Diesel 11 said:
My one counterargument is that this is not a result of reality, but rather a result of propaganda from outlets such as Fox News and the campaigns of Trump and other Republicans.

I live in what’s considered the South and I can tell you that ‘woke’ barely exists here. My partner (a trans man) was discriminated against at work and nothing was done about it despite his HR report (long story). Minorities in America have far from taken over and if ‘woke’ actually exists then I’d love to see it.
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Minorities have largely fallen through the cracks of modern civil rights debates.

True action, in my opinion, boils down to improving material conditions for disadvantaged people rather than corporate ESG messaging that professes progressive causes but still adheres to corporate profit as its guiding principle.

On a personal note, I am sorry to hear about what you and your partner are experiencing. No one should be subjected to harassment or discrimination.
 
Mosh said:
I can’t take any argument that uses the term “wokeness” unironically seriously.
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I could continue to put it in quotes every time I use it, but the reality is that the right wing has successfully co-opted the term and changed its standard definition. We can keep pretending that isn’t true, or we can accept it and move on. I’ve chosen the latter.

Mosh said:
This nebulous discussion on wokeness is the argument that the aristocracy wants you to have because it’s a distra
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I feel compelled to point out that you just used the word “wokeness” unironically seriously in the very next argument you made after complaining about it. (And the quotes here are a literal quote, so I’m not being hypocritical in my own use of them.)

As far as the substance of the conversation is concerned, the left needs to have this discussion much more broadly and openly if they want to start winning elections again. One could argue that avoiding that discussion also plays into the hands of the aristocracy.
 
Was I calling something woke or accusing someone/something of wokeness? I think my point was made, as much as you would like to attempt to obfuscate.
 
Mosh said:
Was I calling something woke or accusing someone/something of wokeness?
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I don’t see where you called that out in your initial complaint as a caveat, but we can all pretend you didn’t make a mistake if that makes you feel better.

And I responded to the substance of your argument too, so I’m not sure where this accusation of obfuscation is coming from.
 
What do people really believe? That is the fundamental question, I think.

Here’s an example of a group of professed anti-racists shooting two Black teenagers, killing one of them, in the incident that ended the CHOP occupation in Seattle’s Capitol Hill district in 2020.


While the act itself was tragic and could be considered an accident, these anti-racist “street fighters” not only never owned up to their culpability but actively tried to obfuscate it.


But wait, here’s a group of “patriots,” many wearing or flying flags with “Blue Lives Matter” on them beating the shit out of the police in DC in 2021.


Hypocrisy? Did they never actually believe in the things they say they believe in and just want to be seen as people with strong convictions? Are their beliefs simply discardable when convenient to them?

I just file it all under “people are dumb.” To me, civil rights and civil liberties for all, an effective economic safety net, and environmental stewardship are important.

But people using their beliefs to justify their bad behavior are jackasses.

I think, too often these days, debates are polarized to the point where each side sees the other as these bad extremes. While these bad extremes exist, most people don’t fall under those categories. They’re somewhere less extreme on the political spectrum.
 
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Diesel 11 said:
My one counterargument is that this is not a result of reality, but rather a result of propaganda from outlets such as Fox News and the campaigns of Trump and other Republicans.

I live in what’s considered the South and I can tell you that ‘woke’ barely exists here. My partner (a trans man) was discriminated against at work and nothing was done about it despite his HR report (long story). Minorities in America have far from taken over and if ‘woke’ actually exists then I’d love to see it.
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I'm sorry to hear that — that sounds incredibly frustrating and unfair.
 
Lost in a lost world said:
What do people really believe? That is the fundamental question, I think.

Here’s an example of a group of professed anti-racists shooting two Black teenagers, killing one of them, in the incident that ended the CHOP occupation in Seattle’s Capitol Hill district in 2020.


While the act itself was tragic and could be considered an accident, these anti-racist “street fighters” not only never owned up to their culpability but actively tried to obfuscate it.


But wait, here’s a group of “patriots,” many wearing or flying flags with “Blue Lives Matter” on them beating the shit out of the police in DC in 2021.


Hypocrisy? Did they never actually believe in the things they say they believe in and just want to be seen as people with strong convictions? Are their beliefs simply discardable when convenient to them?

I just file it all under “people are dumb.” To me, civil rights and civil liberties for all, an effective economic safety net, and environmental stewardship are important.

But people using their beliefs to justify their bad behavior are jackasses.

I think, too often these days, debates are polarized to the point where each side sees the other as these bad extremes. While these bad extremes exist, most people don’t fall under those categories. They’re somewhere less extreme on the political spectrum.
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You raise some good and interesting points. I can mostly agree with the "people are dumb" sentiment.

What I disagree with is the indirect (and maybe not intended?) notion that both extremes are comparable or similar.

For the sake of transparency: I'm obviously very biased on this matter. I'm not American; I'm Greek, but grew up and am living in Germany. I am invested in US politics due to their effect on global politics. Whether we like it or not, what happens in the US ends up directly influencing what happens in my home countries.
I am part of one of those "extremes". I'm a leftist and a socialist. I dislike the effects of late stage capitalism, both on humans (wealth disparity, exploitation of the lower class and the global south) as well as on the planet itself (anthropogenic climate change). These things could probably happen under a different economic system as well, but it's difficult seeing how hyper capitalist endeavors are directly causing destruction all around us, while pretty much all "worst case scenario" predictions by scientists are coming true, much faster than even their most alarming warnings.

I wanted to talk about how, according to the Department of Homeland Security, the largest source of domestic terrorism in the US is by the far right. I used to link to their findings quite often, but I can't find the link at the moment. Haven't looked for it since Trump became president again, but it wouldn't be the first time that useful information was withheld. I guess you'll have to take my word for the following, but you are free to look it up: Left wing extremism in the US is negligible; far right extremism abundant and responsible for most violent incidents in the last decades.

To put it in other terms: The right is championing a man and an administration that is constantly violating the Constitution. ICE got such enormous funding that overshadows most militaries of other countries. Unmarked militias are going through streets kidnapping legal US citizens to get them deported, violating their rights, because they "look foreign". Fascism is on the rise; globally and domestically. And despite all the "we need the 2nd amendment to overthrow a tyrannical government" type arguments that many who are pro-gun brought forth over the years, there's now a large chunk of Americans who are openly cheering for a dictatorship, as long as it's their side doing it.

On the other hand, what exactly are the extreme positions of the left? I won't deny that there have been instances of anti-semitism on the left as well, but support for Palestine doesn't equal support for Hamas. Criticizing the government of Israel for enacting a genocide in broad daylight (as recognized by multiple human rights groups, including Israeli ones) does not equal championing the eradication of Israel or Jewish people.
Then there's obviously all the "culture war" issues. The left wants the LGBTQ community to have the same rights as everyone else, while anti-LGBTQ hate crimes are rising year over year. They want the trans community to have access to live-saving healthcare, as supported by the medical consensus worldwide. Biased source? Maybe, but a good list of statements by a variety of medical organizations on the matter. They want people of colour to be able to live their lives without fear of being harassed or even attacked or murdered. We're living in a time where even the existence of characters who aren't straight, white men in movies, tv shows and video games is decried as "woke", "pushing agendas" or "shoving them down our throats", while Trump and his goons are deporting US citizens and building concentration camps.

The most frustrating thing is that none of what is happening is in any way surprising. The left has been screaming and warning about all this for years. We had someone in this thread painting himself as an apolitical, regular guy with normal, regular problems. He was informed multiple times, in good faith, that the specific policy issues he raised were addressed much better by Harris's campaign than Trump's. He still ended up voting for Trump. He also went mask-off and shared straight up neo nazi rhetoric. It's this disingenuousness that gets me. On one hand playing the "I'm just a normal dude, I want to grill and drink beer", on the other hand revealing deeply political and far right talking points, probably from 4chan or another similar board that radicalizes people. In other words, there was no interest in discussing or learning. There was no interest in debating policies and positions. The lines were drawn, the colours chosen and there was no interest in actually talking about any of this.

This all might seem very one-sided and convenient to you. And honestly? It probably is. But I genuinely can't see how someone could think that what is happening on the far left is in any way comparable to what is happening on the far right, at the moment. Not saying that you are saying that by the way, I just took your comment as an excuse to put my thoughts in order and context.
 
Vaenyr said:
You raise some good and interesting points. I can mostly agree with the "people are dumb" sentiment.

What I disagree with is the indirect (and maybe not intended?) notion that both extremes are comparable or similar.

For the sake of transparency: I'm obviously very biased on this matter. I'm not American; I'm Greek, but grew up and am living in Germany. I am invested in US politics due to their effect on global politics. Whether we like it or not, what happens in the US ends up directly influencing what happens in my home countries.
I am part of one of those "extremes". I'm a leftist and a socialist. I dislike the effects of late stage capitalism, both on humans (wealth disparity, exploitation of the lower class and the global south) as well as on the planet itself (anthropogenic climate change). These things could probably happen under a different economic system as well, but it's difficult seeing how hyper capitalist endeavors are directly causing destruction all around us, while pretty much all "worst case scenario" predictions by scientists are coming true, much faster than even their most alarming warnings.

I wanted to talk about how, according to the Department of Homeland Security, the largest source of domestic terrorism in the US is by the far right. I used to link to their findings quite often, but I can't find the link at the moment. Haven't looked for it since Trump became president again, but it wouldn't be the first time that useful information was withheld. I guess you'll have to take my word for the following, but you are free to look it up: Left wing extremism in the US is negligible; far right extremism abundant and responsible for most violent incidents in the last decades.

To put it in other terms: The right is championing a man and an administration that is constantly violating the Constitution. ICE got such enormous funding that overshadows most militaries of other countries. Unmarked militias are going through streets kidnapping legal US citizens to get them deported, violating their rights, because they "look foreign". Fascism is on the rise; globally and domestically. And despite all the "we need the 2nd amendment to overthrow a tyrannical government" type arguments that many who are pro-gun brought forth over the years, there's now a large chunk of Americans who are openly cheering for a dictatorship, as long as it's their side doing it.

On the other hand, what exactly are the extreme positions of the left? I won't deny that there have been instances of anti-semitism on the left as well, but support for Palestine doesn't equal support for Hamas. Criticizing the government of Israel for enacting a genocide in broad daylight (as recognized by multiple human rights groups, including Israeli ones) does not equal championing the eradication of Israel or Jewish people.
Then there's obviously all the "culture war" issues. The left wants the LGBTQ community to have the same rights as everyone else, while anti-LGBTQ hate crimes are rising year over year. They want the trans community to have access to live-saving healthcare, as supported by the medical consensus worldwide. Biased source? Maybe, but a good list of statements by a variety of medical organizations on the matter. They want people of colour to be able to live their lives without fear of being harassed or even attacked or murdered. We're living in a time where even the existence of characters who aren't straight, white men in movies, tv shows and video games is decried as "woke", "pushing agendas" or "shoving them down our throats", while Trump and his goons are deporting US citizens and building concentration camps.

The most frustrating thing is that none of what is happening is in any way surprising. The left has been screaming and warning about all this for years. We had someone in this thread painting himself as an apolitical, regular guy with normal, regular problems. He was informed multiple times, in good faith, that the specific policy issues he raised were addressed much better by Harris's campaign than Trump's. He still ended up voting for Trump. He also went mask-off and shared straight up neo nazi rhetoric. It's this disingenuousness that gets me. On one hand playing the "I'm just a normal dude, I want to grill and drink beer", on the other hand revealing deeply political and far right talking points, probably from 4chan or another similar board that radicalizes people. In other words, there was no interest in discussing or learning. There was no interest in debating policies and positions. The lines were drawn, the colours chosen and there was no interest in actually talking about any of this.

This all might seem very one-sided and convenient to you. And honestly? It probably is. But I genuinely can't see how someone could think that what is happening on the far left is in any way comparable to what is happening on the far right, at the moment. Not saying that you are saying that by the way, I just took your comment as an excuse to put my thoughts in order and context.
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Good point. First, I’m pretty far left myself. I think we’re well aligned in our political views.

It’s not equivocating of the merits of left or right it’s more a comment about how people behave.

What frustrates me on the left is people who claim to be “left” but really just parrot corporate ESG talking points or, worse, run around like lumpenproletariat giving the left bad optics. I think a lot of what passes for leftism in the US is what Marx would call Bourgeoise Socialism.

The CHOP example upset me because people who raised a leftist banner basically acted like hooligans, effected no change, gave the reactionaries propaganda fodder, made the city of Seattle more conservative (relatively) than it was, and cost the lives of several young Black men despite the protestors professing to be for racial equity.

I couldn’t find a video I saw from 2020 that showed a closer view of the incident but, from my recollection, people thought they were firing on “fash” trying to breach their barricades. But, when they realized their mistake, rather than rendering aid and holding themselves accountable, they delayed emergency responders, and covered up their actions.

Here’s a more recent article about the incident’s aftermath.



For the far right — goes without saying that I find them very, very dumb as I watch all 3 branches descend into a reality TV show rather than a functioning government.
 
Yeah, I can agree with that. It's why I like to differentiate between leftism and liberalism. In my experience leftists tend to criticize things like rainbow capitalism (corporate brands pandering to LGBTQ folks because, as it turns out, "the gays" also have money to burn!) while many liberals praise these companies and pretend that them using a rainbow coloured logo during Pride Month is worthwhile activism.

Having said that, given the current political climate and how Trump chooses to outright punish corporations that are "pro-DEI", "diverse", "woke" or whatever, I have to put my cynicism aside for a minute and applaud those, who still choose to support the LGBTQ crowd. Even if it's just performative, when these actions can result in monetary harm to a brand (which is what they care about the most, obviously), it is commendable that they are still going for diversity and representation. Credit where credit's due and all that. On the flip side there are brands like Disney, who somehow has this public image of being diverse and "woke", while actively cutting out LGBTQ themes out of recent productions. Elio was supposed to heavily involve queer themes, got entirely neutered and apparently turned into an unfocuse mess.

As for the general point about not taking accountability and instead doubling down, yeah, that's something I've struggled with before as well. Thankfully my mistakes in life so far haven't caused any harm or damage, but there have been plenty of personal interactions that I could and should've dealt with in a different way. It's something I'm working on. I'm trying to be better about saying "my bad" and acknowledging wrongdoing, rather than finding excuses and trying to lawyer-speak my way out of a situation on some technicality, to absolve me of my mistakes. I'm not sure if that's something that comes with certain political views or if that's more due to the internet, social media and having a couple of generations now that grew up in those environments.
 
Vaenyr said:
Yeah, I can agree with that. It's why I like to differentiate between leftism and liberalism. In my experience leftists tend to criticize things like rainbow capitalism (corporate brands pandering to LGBTQ folks because, as it turns out, "the gays" also have money to burn!) while many liberals praise these companies and pretend that them using a rainbow coloured logo during Pride Month is worthwhile activism.

Having said that, given the current political climate and how Trump chooses to outright punish corporations that are "pro-DEI", "diverse", "woke" or whatever, I have to put my cynicism aside for a minute and applaud those, who still choose to support the LGBTQ crowd. Even if it's just performative, when these actions can result in monetary harm to a brand (which is what they care about the most, obviously), it is commendable that they are still going for diversity and representation. Credit where credit's due and all that. On the flip side there are brands like Disney, who somehow has this public image of being diverse and "woke", while actively cutting out LGBTQ themes out of recent productions. Elio was supposed to heavily involve queer themes, got entirely neutered and apparently turned into an unfocuse mess.

As for the general point about not taking accountability and instead doubling down, yeah, that's something I've struggled with before as well. Thankfully my mistakes in life so far haven't caused any harm or damage, but there have been plenty of personal interactions that I could and should've dealt with in a different way. It's something I'm working on. I'm trying to be better about saying "my bad" and acknowledging wrongdoing, rather than finding excuses and trying to lawyer-speak my way out of a situation on some technicality, to absolve me of my mistakes. I'm not sure if that's something that comes with certain political views or if that's more due to the internet, social media and having a couple of generations now that grew up in those environments.
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Ken Paxton, AG of Texas basically threatened to drag companies into court unless they abandoned DEI. That whiplashed a lot of corporate DEI programs after Trump came back to office.

www.mintz.com

State Attorneys General Take Aim at DEI Policies at Six Major Financial Institutions

On January 23, 2025, a coalition of Attorneys General from ten states, led by AG Ken Paxton of Texas, penned a letter to six major U.S. financial institutions, warning that their embrace of “race-and-sex-based quotas” and investment decisions made “in the furtherance of political agendas” might...
www.mintz.com www.mintz.com

But that’s reactionaries fighting corporate ESG, knowing they’ll get compliance.

My sticking point, though, is that it’s about class, who controls the means of production, and their relation to capital. All other civil rights aspects matter as part of the drive to social and legal equality but we have to be careful not to turn the working class away by hyper-focusing on things other than economic disparity.

That’s why rainbow capitalism is, in my opinion, a crock. It’s the same profit motive but with virtue signaling as a smokescreen. It’s also why anarchists on holiday for a few weeks shooting up a neighborhood are only hurting the efforts to spread awareness of the underlying economic and social disparities.
 
Vaenyr said:
We had someone in this thread painting himself as an apolitical, regular guy with normal, regular problems. He was informed multiple times, in good faith, that the specific policy issues he raised were addressed much better by Harris's campaign than Trump's. He still ended up voting for Trump. He also went mask-off and shared straight up neo nazi rhetoric. It's this disingenuousness that gets me. On one hand playing the "I'm just a normal dude, I want to grill and drink beer", on the other hand revealing deeply political and far right talking points, probably from 4chan or another similar board that radicalizes people. In other words, there was no interest in discussing or learning. There was no interest in debating policies and positions. The lines were drawn, the colours chosen and there was no interest in actually talking about any of this.
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I finally read those links. Both sounded trollish and probably not serious.

Here’s what I like to point out to people on the far right.

Imagine, you are a Wehrmacht soldier on the Russian front.

Your command sent you there with inadequate food, clothing, or other provisions to fight while your leadership live it up in Berlin and occupied Paris.

Your commanders are given maniacal, impossible orders, likely Pervitin induced, to win an un-winnable battle.

Any commander who disagrees with the political leadership based on military common sense is removed.

You freeze and starve until you’re surrounded by the Red Army. Your vehicles are out of fuel, your K98k bolt frozen shut. The last time you took a piss it froze on the way to the ground.

You, as a cohort, are blamed for the loss. A so-called disgrace to your country and the insane megalomaniac leading it. You know, you just didn’t believe enough, that was it.

Say you survive Stalingrad, Kursk, Kharkov, etc, and are pushed back through Poland into Germany.

Where the citizens you thought you were serving revile you. They capture “deserters” and perform summary executions. You, as a soldier are seen now as a looter and coward by your own people. Rations? Haven’t seen one in weeks.

Then, the leader offs himself and you’re considered a villain in the history books. Maybe you rebuild your life, but you certainly aren’t better off than before, probably worse off.

Yeah, who wants in on that action?

No thanks.
 
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