USA Politics

[Vaenyr]

Dude,

You seem to have a really strong invested stake in arguing what you want to argue from this.

I’ll continue posting my opinions and observations.

You continue posting yours, of course.

But, given your tone with me and insistence that I bear a “burden of proof” that you do not, then I’m done talking with you.

Not because you’re making any relevant or compelling points but because you’re acting like a tw*t.

Eh, my only interest is that people who try to throw minorities under the bus to try and back up their claims with facts. It's fine if you don't wanna continue talking, I can't force you. If me calling out and scrutinizing arguments that don't really make sense or conform with the data makes me twat, then so be it.

Up the Irons! At least we can agree on good music.

Oh, you haven't seen my Maiden takes yet. Virtual XI is unironically my favorite album lol

 

[Perun]

My expat German friends here seem fixated to a degree on it.

They’re liberal.

Maybe it’s expat self-consciousness not evident at home.

All of that is anecdotal.

I will say this: from a peaceful protest perspective, I think East Germany got it right when the wall came down. Such self-restraint and effectiveness in a mass movement is admirable and hopefully a tactic that won’t be lost to history.

That said, there are some parallels to collective guilt culture between Germany and the U.S. The U.S. objectively has a pretty nasty history but modern generations (except a few very old) weren’t directly complicit.

I'd need to talk to your German expat friends to be able to tell you how representative of the German mindset they are. I also assume you mean "liberal" in the American sense (as in, they would vote Democrat), because in Germany, the attitude of liberals is more leaning towards the right, as in constructing a straw man collective guilt culture.

If me calling out and scrutinizing arguments that don't really make sense or conform with the data makes me twat, then so be it.

Hey, you got off easy. Last time I had this talk here, I was called a "pompous antisemitic ass".

 

[Sheriff_of_Huddersfield]

I'd need to talk to your German expat friends to be able to tell you how representative of the German mindset they are. I also assume you mean "liberal" in the American sense (as in, they would vote Democrat), because in Germany, the attitude of liberals is more leaning towards the right, as in constructing a straw man collective guilt culture.

I mean Liberal in the American sense (progressive on social issues). Beyond understanding some of the basics, I won’t claim to be informed on the nuances of German political nomenclature.

 

[Perun]

I mean Liberal in the American sense (progressive on social issues). Beyond understanding some of the basics, I won’t claim to be informed on the nuances of German political nomenclature.

No worries, I just wanted to make sure there's no misunderstanding here. In Germany, liberalism is arguably the most right-wing ideology in the moderate democratic spectrum. And to make things more confusing, it is most adjacent to conservatism.

 

[Vaenyr]

No worries, I just wanted to make sure there's no misunderstanding here. In Germany, liberalism is arguably the most right-wing ideology in the moderate democratic spectrum. And to make things more confusing, it is most adjacent to conservatism.

I'd actually argue that's the case with most democratic countries. Liberalism is a center-right ideology, which makes sense considering how intertwined it is with capitalism and the "market". In most countries (that I'm aware of), when you talk about a liberal political party, it is a center right to right party, not a left wing one.

 

[Sheriff_of_Huddersfield]

Eh, my only interest is that people who try to throw minorities under the bus to try and back up their claims with facts. It's fine if you don't wanna continue talking, I can't force you. If me calling out and scrutinizing arguments that don't really make sense or conform with the data makes me twat, then so be it.


Oh, you haven't seen my Maiden takes yet. Virtual XI is unironically my favorite album lol

I’ll regret this reply, I’m sure (where’s the ignore button).

Virtual XI? Now I know you’re not sane j/k.

I take exception to being cast as someone who’d “throw minorities under the bus” if that’s what you’re trying to say. If it wasn’t, express yourself more clearly.

My statement was that the US Democrats themselves saw their messaging as a problem and are trying to recapture moderate appeal.

That is an opinion inherently. There’s no data scientist out there gathering intel on what every voter’s exact thought was when they cast a ballot.

Where are your stone cold, irrefutable facts to the contrary of my statements?

Burden of proof is on you now. Go back it up.

Oh, it’s just another wall of text you came up with and your opinion.

Sure.

 

[Sheriff_of_Huddersfield]

No worries, I just wanted to make sure there's no misunderstanding here. In Germany, liberalism is arguably the most right-wing ideology in the moderate democratic spectrum. And to make things more confusing, it is most adjacent to conservatism.

In the U.S., we tend to have our own political vocabulary different from much of the rest of the world.

Not unlike our need to call football “soccer” or our insistence on using imperial weights and measures (officially, we have both the metric and imperial measurement systems but few exclusively use metric).

 

[Vaenyr]

I mean, it is undeniable that the Dems are spiraling and don't really know in which direction they want to steer the party. To make my own stance very clear:

I'm a leftist. The Dems are already far too right wing for my tastes, but they are the best choice the US has at the moment (in my opinion of course).

Some prominent Dems like Newsome did try to throw the trans community in particular under the bus. Something that polling consistently showed to now have had any meaningful impact on the election, and he (as well as other Dems) were racing to capitulate to the framing of the conservatives on this matter.

There are certainly Dems who'd like to move to the center. There are others who's like the party to move further left instead. Why is only the former a valid position and not the latter?

To put it in other words: The same arguments that are being used nowadays against campaign for trans rights (for example) are the same type of arguments used a decade ago against gay marriage or half a century ago against the Civil Rights movement. Progress takes hard work and a ton of time. And as I mentioned previously (and other posters have mentioned this as well), left wing policies are popular across the board with voters from all sides. It's the team colors that dictate if they'll end up approving of them or not.

Sorry if this is seen as another wall of text, but I wanted to make my views on this clear, give you some context on my views since we don't know each other yet, and to make sure my point comes across as best as I can present it.

 

[Perun]

I'd actually argue that's the case with most democratic countries. Liberalism is a center-right ideology, which makes sense considering how intertwined it is with capitalism and the "market". In most countries (that I'm aware of), when you talk about a liberal political party, it is a center right to right party, not a left wing one.

By and large, yes. I think what all of us (including myself) need to be more aware of the fact that "left" and "right" take different meanings almost everywhere. In former socialist countries, for example, anything that is moderate democratic is considered "right", whereas the term "left" is reserved for the remnants and successors of the authoritarian socialist dictatorship; however, this also leads to a general suspicion of anything that is labelled "left" in the west. This is why you and @Magnus have had such major run-ins. Given that he is a close personal friend of mine I can tell that you aren't as far apart politically as both of you think (and I don't even know who of you two will be more offended by me saying this!), it's just that you view things from irreconcilable pretexts. How can you find common ground if to the one side, "right" means Dachau and to the other, "left" means Gulag?

In the U.S., we tend to have our own political vocabulary different from much of the rest of the world.

Not unlike our need to call football “soccer” or our insistence on using imperial weights and measures (officially, we have both the metric and imperial measurement systems but few exclusively use metric).

And that's normal. There have always been cultural and dialectal differences. Quite frankly, I get annoyed by people criticising the US for these things. What's the big deal with using your own unit of measurement within the world's biggest market? The only problem is when it leads to problems or misunderstandings when dealing with externals. Which is really the reason I brought it up in the first place - avoid misunderstandings. I'm aware of what "liberal" and "conservative" mean in the US, I just need to know we're on the same page.

 

[Sheriff_of_Huddersfield]

And that's normal. There have always been cultural and dialectal differences. Quite frankly, I get annoyed by people criticising the US for these things. What's the big deal with using your own unit of measurement within the world's biggest market? The only problem is when it leads to problems or misunderstandings when dealing with externals. Which is really the reason I brought it up in the first place - avoid misunderstandings. I'm aware of what "liberal" and "conservative" mean in the US, I just need to know we're on the same page.

Thanks for the awareness there.

I would say (not directed at Perun), this is the US Politics thread, so assumption would be discussion is based on US political nomenclature.

I do see the argument that, from a global perspective, the Democrats already are pretty moderate and, when the term “left” is used from US-centric perspective, we don’t mean Trotsky — we mean maybe something that is still to the right of Corbyn in the Uk or Trudeau in Canada.

Bernie Sanders is about as close to a class conscious politician as we have on the main political stage.

 

[Vaenyr]

By and large, yes. I think what all of us (including myself) need to be more aware of the fact that "left" and "right" take different meanings almost everywhere. In former socialist countries, for example, anything that is moderate democratic is considered "right", whereas the term "left" is reserved for the remnants and successors of the authoritarian socialist dictatorship; however, this also leads to a general suspicion of anything that is labelled "left" in the west. This is why you and @Magnus have had such major run-ins. Given that he is a close personal friend of mine I can tell that you aren't as far apart politically as both of you think (and I don't even know who of you two will be more offended by me saying this!), it's just that you view things from irreconcilable pretexts. How can you find common ground if to the one side, "right" means Dachau and to the other, "left" means Gulag?

Thanks for the thorough and thoughtful reply. You are correct, of course. And I'm certainly not offended by the statement; I've misunderstood Magnus's comments and misread his tone on more than one occasion. That's on me, I had difficulty parsing the intended message from words on a screen. I'd love to some day get the chance to have a (friendly and civil ) real life discussion. I'm sure it would be quite interesting.

 

[Sheriff_of_Huddersfield]

How can you find common ground if to the one side, "right" means Dachau and to the other, "left" means Gulag?

Right, and I think that’s why a rightward shift of an already right-leaning (used to be a more libertarian right, shifted to a more authoritarian right under G.W Bush and back to what we’d consider moderate-left under Obama, then batshit crazy populist right under Trump) US can alarm people in particularly social-democratic leaning countries.

That said, while we’re not even socialist enough to have universal public healthcare, a lot of what’s considered “left” in the U.S. is what Marx called “Bourgeois Socialism” (I think of it more as bourgeois activism because it doesn’t seem very socialist).

It focuses on lines of identity and elevates niche social issues above any conversation that may further class consciousness or address material conditions.

As a 22-year old Political Science student I had more universally leftist ideas. Not an orthodox Marxist, but critical of capitalism. Now in middle age, while still acknowledging the validity of a more egalitarian society, I just want the noise and bullshit to stop and will accept a boring, moderate government.

Post-2015, I think certain US special interest lobbies didn’t know how to gracefully claim victory, and their continued need for attention eclipsed many more fundamental issues affecting society like income inequality, oligopoly economics, and neglect of workers’ rights.

Edit: Although SATIRE, this article from the Onion illustrates an example of how pushing an agenda too far can set acceptance and progress back.

It’s also a distraction from material economic and class issues, just like Marx said of bourgeois socialism.

 

[Flaming Blimp Crash]

Right — so they’re moderates, then?

Good case study of Missouri, by the way. Thanks for the thoughtful post.

I don't know if you can really throw a political affiliation label on it, in a sense. But, to me it's more psychological than necessarily political and a sign on how US politics (and perhaps for the world as well) has become more about tribalism. I've read multiple surveys (unfortunately I don't have any links handy) where - when presenting issues and solutions to voters - more (US) left-wing ideas were supported by the populace. Now, when the same solutions were proposed but labelled as "the Democratic solution", support dropped.

When put on the ballot in Missouri, voters wanted Democratic ideas, they just didn't want Democratic leaders.

 

[Sheriff_of_Huddersfield]

I don't know if you can really throw a political affiliation label on it, in a sense. But, to me it's more psychological than necessarily political and a sign on how US politics (and perhaps for the world as well) has become more about tribalism. I've read multiple surveys (unfortunately I don't have any links handy) where - when presenting issues and solutions to voters - more (US) left-wing ideas were supported by the populace. Now, when the same solutions were proposed but labelled as "the Democratic solution", support dropped.

When put on the ballot in Missouri, voters wanted Democratic ideas, they just didn't want Democratic leaders.

That sort of cognitive dissonance and tribalism tracks on any side of the political spectrum but seems more evident with conservatives.

It’s how people end up voting against their own interests.

 

[Vaenyr]

Finally found a post from last year that I was looking for. Back then we also talked about the left "going too far" and I'd genuinely like to hear your input on this @Sheriff_of_Huddersfield. No gotchas, I'm not looking to fight or an argument. I'd like to hear your opinions on what I wrote back then, if you're interested.

Also, can we be honest for one minute please? How exactly did the left "go too far"? What exactly does that mean?

Is asking for people to be treated the same way regardless of the colour of their skin too much? Is giving lesbian and gay couples the same rights as heterosexual couples too far? Is it too much to treat the trans community with the same respect and dignity as everyone else and to respect their gender identity? Is it such a dealbreaker to take down statues of confederate generals, per definition traitors who rebelled against the United States, and to rather see them in museums than celebrated openly? Is it such a radical idea to want billionaires to pay their fair share in taxes, just like all other citizens already have to do? Is the desire for the police to not have unfettered power and the ability to essentially execute civilians without due process or any kind of meaningful consequences so unreasonable? Or is women having full bodily autonomy and keeping the government out of your bedroom a sign of the left going too far - despite this being popular across the political spectrum and many conservative women supporting that too.

How exactly has the left gone too far? Because it often feels like the people who are saying stuff like that bemoan than they can't be openly bigoted or racist without repercussions, as they could in the "good old days". Note, I'm not accusing anyone here of bigotry, but I'm genuinely asking how the left went too far, especially within the context that the US barely has a leftist movement to begin with and that not a single currently influential politician is a leftist.

 

[Azas]

By and large, yes. I think what all of us (including myself) need to be more aware of the fact that "left" and "right" take different meanings almost everywhere. In former socialist countries, for example, anything that is moderate democratic is considered "right", whereas the term "left" is reserved for the remnants and successors of the authoritarian socialist dictatorship; however, this also leads to a general suspicion of anything that is labelled "left" in the west. This is why you and @Magnus have had such major run-ins. Given that he is a close personal friend of mine I can tell that you aren't as far apart politically as both of you think (and I don't even know who of you two will be more offended by me saying this!), it's just that you view things from irreconcilable pretexts. How can you find common ground if to the one side, "right" means Dachau and to the other, "left" means Gulag?

You definitely have a point there.
So, anyone preaching any form of socialism to us is a lunatic. To put it mildly..

 

[JudasMyGuide]

For what it's worth, coming from a post-Socialist/Eastern Bloc country, we do have quite normal "left" and "right", which quite well complement each other near the centre.

We have a lot of pro-social policies and a quite well done safety net, including various protections from discrimination and such (which is actually my daily bread and butter, as I am a labour law lawyer most of the time) and yet, thirty years later we still like to embrace the newly-found capitalism, embracing enterpreneurship, freedom to do whatever you can afford and such. I am an anti-capitalist, necessarily so through my worldview, but in moderate amounts, I can see the appeal, especially after 40 years of forced "socialism".

But we are sensitive towards the extremes - We do hate both communism and nazism, for obvious reasons (as we suffered from both, once under Germany, once under Russia) and we are very sensitive regarding leaving the center. Same goes for various mutations; most of us hate wokeness as well as US-style right-wing.

In general, US is a bit right-wing or most of us, economically, and a bit too woke, socially. But most people here (at least those I speak with) tend to differentiate between "liberal" in the philosophical / theological sense and "liberal" in the US political sense, "libertarian" and "conservative" and other such terms. I know that when I label myself as a "conservative", I have to stress it is not US-style "Conservative", for example.

 

[Sheriff_of_Huddersfield]

You definitely have a point there.
So, anyone preaching any form of socialism to us is a lunatic. To put it mildly..

I can imagine anyone from a former Soviet Bloc or Warsaw Pact nation recoiling at the thought of anything associated with the former USSR’s ideology.

On the flip side, pure capitalism is brutal. The idea of something like anarcho-capitalism brings to mind post-apocalyptic warlord societies.

 

[JudasMyGuide]

I can imagine anyone from a former Soviet Bloc or Warsaw Pact nation recoiling at the thought of anything associated with the former USSR’s ideology.

Having the experience, yes, we tend to be rather irked by Western cafeteria armchair communists/tankies, who have no idea what they're talking about.

On the flip side, pure capitalism is brutal. The idea of something like anarcho-capitalism brings to mind post-apocalyptic warlord societies.

Yeah, unless you are an anti-capitalist and anti-socialist, you can't be a friend of mine.

Like I said earlier

To paraphrase [Chesterton] for the final time (I put it together from memory, some of this he says only implicitly, but you get my drift):
Capitalism and Socialism are, in many regards, the same. They are both materialistic (meaning they know only tangible matter and deny the spiritual and the metaphysical) and both desire power, the difference is merely that under Socialism the state owns all corporations whereas under Capitalism corporations own all states. Both are inherently toxic and both should be avoided - or at least, whichever is winning at the moment, should be mitigated by the other.
If pressed and forced to choose, with a gun at my head, I would still probably pick Socialism, because there the care for the human being is at least proclaimed if never put into action. But we should love neither, because both are of this world and therefore both are fallen and deeply flawed.

 

[Azas]

In my home country, Lithuania, both Nazi and Communist symbols are equally banned. And when I see Communists marching in places like Spain or Greece — or wherever — I just want to... ....!!! IDIOTS!"