USA Politics

I don't think there's such a thing as a free lunch, or a free education. I don't mind paying higher taxes to pay for my education retroactively, or to pay for my kids' education. Or to invest in my retirement, or future health care costs, etc.

I recognize that the government mismanages funds, but so does private business. The difference is that if a private business goes out of business, the money is often simply gone. If the government goes out of business, we probably have worse things to worry about than CPP.

I'd like for government to handle money more efficiently. I think that often times they try. But the bureaucracy is what it is. You either have the cold efficiency of business who really have no interest in keeping you educated and alive beyond the level needed to participate in their funding process, or you have the more inefficient government that is trying to buy your vote. It's a rough choice, but I go with the one where I can influence more easily and where I think more stability lies.
 
The government inherently is not going to handle money efficiently because it is not incentivized to do so.  In any public vs. private debate, whether it is about education, health care, or whatever, it is essential to go to first principles.  We know what typically motivates private enterprise: profit.  Sometimes the focus is on short-term profit goals, sometimes the focus is on the long-term, but it is always on maximizing profits. If you are running a private school, for example, you are incentivized to provide an education that satisfies the parents who pay tuition, who are your customers.  If the school has a great reputation, the higher the demand, and the more that the school can charge, thus the greater the profits.  Note that even non-profit schools are similarly (albeit not identically) incentivized because, if they provide a bad product, they go out of business completely.  Compare that to governments.  What do you think motivates governments?  Is it solely the public good?  There is considerable literature on this theory, and generally the answer is no.  Government entities are motivated to protect and extend their own power.  Now, education is a public good, and for that reason it is generally regarded as appropriate for governments to educate its citizenry.  But the key is to properly incentivize the government to do so, and that has eluded policymakers. Who is accountable if the schools fail?  Can administrators be fired for poor performance?  By whom?  Who can fire that person, in turn?  Can bad teachers be fired?  In California and many other states, generally the answer is no, due to unions and tenure.  An administrator or politician is more likely to be ousted by angering the union vote rather than by failing to educate children effectively.  And therein lies the root of the problem of public education in the U.S.  If schools do a poor job educating children, there is not much to incentivize them to teach better.  So, the government adopts standardized testing and ties funding allocation to test scores, which on its face seems like it might work, but in truth this just leads to unintended consequences such as "teaching to the test" and sometimes outright cheating,  (Again, read Freakonomics). It is obvious to me that this debate has strayed from the core principle of what the government's incentives are. 

And, to Onhell's point about better education in more affluent neighborhoods, that may be true comparing one district to another district.  However, it does not explain striking differences in schools within a district, such as L.A. Unified School District.  Do affluent neighborhoods generally have better schools?  Yes.  Is it because the government funnels more money to more affluent neighborhoods?  No.  It is because parents are more involved, either in the classroom or in fundraising or both.  Our son goes to public elementary school, and a very good one, and the reason it is so good is that parents voluntarily pump additional funds into the school, far beyond what the government allocates.  Often, the reason poorer neighborhoods have bad schools is that the constituents aren't as committed to education.  People who value education tend to be more affluent, because they are well educated, and they are affluent because they were well educated.  Of course, it is not a kid's fault if his parents are poor and/or don't value education.  But that is a fundamental problem. 

Of course, none of this explains the case of University High School in West L.A.  It has Westwood and UCLA immediately to the east, Santa Monica immediately to the West, Brentwood immediately to the north, and Bel Air and Holmby Hills nearby.  These are some of the wealthiest neighborhoods in the world, and predominantly Caucasian. All those neighborhoods are within the geographic boundaries of University High's service area, meaning that if the folks in those neighborhoods sent their kids to the assigned public high school, it would be Uni High, and would be one of the wealthiest (and whitest) public schools in California, indeed the entire U.S.  One would also expect it to be one of the best.  Yet, it is one of the WORST public high schools in California, and the student body is less than 10% white.  It effectively services only the poorer, mostly non-white families to the south.  If the rich kids went to school there, presumably it would benefit the poorer kids, because the rich families would support the school, be more effective at pressuring the district to assign good teachers there, etc.  Instead, the rich families opt out of public school to send their kids to private school, at a cost of over $20k or even $30k per student per year.  This is the clearest indictment of the government's ability to run the schools I have ever seen.  To me, that is the test of any school admnistrator: if you can't turn University High School around such that even half of the affluent white families in the neighborhood will send their teenagers to that school, then how can you possibly hope to turn around schools in the poorer parts of town. 
 
Genghis Khan said:
@ bearfan

Don't bother arguing.  The problem is they don't understand that there is no such thing as free lunch.  There is certainly no such thing as free education.  They don't understand the source of money, and the nature of the economy.

EDIT: Or the nature of The State.

What LC said. And what in my posts gives you that impression? I talk about taxes, which come from the people, so obviously I know where the money comes from. When I say "free health care/education" I obviously don't mean literally free. As Invader says, do you really think us that stupid?

cornfedhick said:
And, to Onhell's point about better education in more affluent neighborhoods, that may be true comparing one district to another district.  However, it does not explain striking differences in schools within a district, such as L.A. Unified School District.  Do affluent neighborhoods generally have better schools?  Yes.  Is it because the government funnels more money to more affluent neighborhoods?  No.  It is because parents are more involved, either in the classroom or in fundraising or both.  Our son goes to public elementary school, and a very good one, and the reason it is so good is that parents voluntarily pump additional funds into the school, far beyond what the government allocates.  Often, the reason poorer neighborhoods have bad schools is that the constituents aren't as committed to education.  People who value education tend to be more affluent, because they are well educated, and they are affluent because they were well educated.  Of course, it is not a kid's fault if his parents are poor and/or don't value education.  But that is a fundamental problem. 

YES! Thank you, I considered mentioning this in my post, but it wasn't the main point I was trying to make, but I'm very glad you mentioned it.
 
cornfedhick said:
Of course, it is not a kid's fault if his parents are poor

@cornfed: I'm trying to understand the school/funds-system you are taking part in.
When you support your school, does that mean:
A: that you support your child only with this money? You pay, and your child can be allowed.
B: that you support the school, and the school can decide what to do with the money, and e.g. also use it to pay costs for parents who can't afford good education for their children. In other words: the rich (indirectly) support the poor.
C: the money is only meant for increasing quality, e.g. to attract good teachers, and has nothing to do with who can join the school, or not.
D: a combination of (some of) the other options.
E: something else (please explain).

Thanks in advance!
 
This will vay from state to state, but take Texas for example and the "Robin Hood" court decision, which addresses the very thing you mention.  It was ruled that funding of schools (which in Texas are done primarily through property taxes from each district), that is is un Constitiotional to have different levels of funding from district to district based on the property values in that district.  For over 10 years now, the richer districts have been sending money to the poorer districts to even it out. 

My point is that just funding the schools does not solve the problem, as there are clearly some horrible schools in Texas despite this.  When schools are failing the students they are supposed to be serving, there needs to be a way to turn over the schools administration and some (or all of the teachers) rapidly and take more drastic measures to correct the problem instead of saying we'll toss in another $200 a student and hope the problem goes away, history has shown it will not.
 
Hey, I agree that there are big problems with schools, many schools, in the USA. And even many schools elsewhere in the western world. And money isn't the problem. This phrase is the problem:

"Those who can, can. Those who can't - teach!"

My best friend, the Iron Duke whom the old timers know, is a very, very smart man. He got his BA Honours and his MA in history. People pressured him to go get his PhD, because he was "too smart" to go teach. He got his BEd and is now a history/english teacher, and he pretty well seems to love it.

The idea that we should be investing our smartest people elsewhere than teaching is the reason these schools suck. Yeah, it's tough to be a teacher, but it's tough to be the ONLY teacher among 100 in an inner-city school who care passionately about what they do. When 99 in 100 just want to get their paycheck, go home, and to hell with the kids, then the schools will suck.

I think public education is a right. Period. Increasing the level of education is something society needs to do - too many people wouldn't be able to afford private school if we went to an all-or-mostly private based system, even with vouchers. Plus, while the governments are not an unbiased group (lookin' at you, Texas school board and your crazy textbooks), their influence is not constant, as governments rise and fall. Businesses will have biases they can teach constantly.

We can fix it, and throwing money isn't the way to do it. You have to throw money at people who want to teach, and get them teaching! Help prospective teachers pay for their university education. Find innovative ways to pass the messages along. Engage kids at all levels...
 
Forostar said:
@cornfed: I'm trying to understand the school/funds-system you are taking part in.
When you support your school, does that mean:
A: that you support your child only with this money? You pay, and your child can be allowed.
B: that you support the school, and the school can decide what to do with the money, and e.g. also use it to pay costs for parents who can't afford good education for their children. In other words: the rich (indirectly) support the poor.
C: the money is only meant for increasing quality, e.g. to attract good teachers, and has nothing to do with who can join the school, or not.
D: a combination of (some of) the other options.
E: something else (please explain).

Thanks in advance!

Foro, the answer is C, though the first part of B is also accurate.  Anyone within the geographic area assigned to the school, rich or poor, may attend the school. As it is a public school, there is no tuition.  So there is no need for "financial aid" to allow children to attend, though less fortunate families do get assistance for transportation (busing) and a free lunch.  A small percentage of poorer students are bussed in from outside the district, which is a government initiative.  I don't know whether donations are used to fund that effort, though I assume it is mostly if not completely covered by State funds.  State money is used to pay the core, required teachers, which apparently is required by law.  Parent donations cover additional teaching and other staff, such as a librarian, physical education teacher, art and music teachers, and special aides for math, science, and children with special needs, as just a few examples, as well as the latest equipment, books and other technology and infrastructure.  Obviously, this benefits all the kids, even those who can't afford to donate money.  As a result of all this, teachers from all over the state want to teach at this school, so the school basically has its pick of the top teachers.

Bear in mind that, beyond monetary contributions, parents in the better school districts are far more involved in the school in non-financial ways, as well.  They volunteer their time to supervise field trips or special events, or to help in the classrooms if such help is needed.  They know exactly what their kids are doing in class, they supervise homework, and if there is a perception that not enough is being done by the teacher to challenge the children, they will speak up, first to the teacher herself and, if needed, to the headmaster.  In my view, this constant feedback and active involvement of the parents is at least as important as the monetary contributions, which frankly aren't all that large (FAR less than the cost of private school tuition!), in ensuring a top-notch elementary education. 

Note that, at least in L.A., this happens a fair amount at elementary schools, but does not carry over to high schools, which are much bigger and would draw on a much wider socioeconomic cross-sector.  This results in the shameful University High School situation I mentioned in my earlier post.  I'm not entirely sure why that is.  Again, if collectively the affluent parents who could afford private school decided instead to enroll their kids in public high schools, and commit the time and money needed to make the high schools better, I imagine things would be very different.  But in choosing schools, parents are not concerned about social change or the public good, they choose what is in the immediate best interest of their children, as well they should.  And that typically means going to private school, where not only is the education better, but even more important, it is perceived as safer.  Parents don't like seeing metal detectors at little Joey's school. 
 
It does not matter what is in the school books if the teachers will not teach it any way.  People on all sides try to turn schools into social experiments and get their own view in there in social studies/English/History.  But go to non-social classes like science and math, you have teachers get promoted and get raises based tenure versus any achievement and the teachers unions more interested in protecting their own than actually teaching kids.  There are programs now that will forgive student loans for people who go teach in the inner cities, but who would want to when in some cases you are taking your life in your own hands.  We have allowed the inmanted to run the asylum and need to restore some order.
 
LooseCannon said:
Hey, I agree that there are big problems with schools, many schools, in the USA. And even many schools elsewhere in the western world. And money isn't the problem. This phrase is the problem:

"Those who can, can. Those who can't - teach!"

...

The idea that we should be investing our smartest people elsewhere than teaching is the reason these schools suck. Yeah, it's tough to be a teacher, but it's tough to be the ONLY teacher among 100 in an inner-city school who care passionately about what they do. When 99 in 100 just want to get their paycheck, go home, and to hell with the kids, then the schools will suck.

...

We can fix it, and throwing money isn't the way to do it. You have to throw money at people who want to teach, and get them teaching! Help prospective teachers pay for their university education. Find innovative ways to pass the messages along. Engage kids at all levels...

I agree, and perhaps ending tenure rules would allow young, eager, competent new teachers like Duke to replace the incompetent, jaded ones you describe in your post.  The opposing argument is that the idea of lifetime tenure attracts people to the teaching profession and helps retain experienced teachers, though I don't agree: lots of people want to be teachers, and education would be better off if merit matters to pay and longevity.  Now, it doesn't, in many parts of the U.S.  This is contrary to the American ethos, and I think most parents would support the idea of rewarding teachers based on merit rather then mere tenure, but unions everywhere will support the teachers' unions and punish politicians who propose to disrupt the stale established order in public education.  

I do think parent involvement, more than anything, even cash, is the key to a good school.  But involvement and money are not totally unrelated.  You tend to see more parent involvement in public schools in affluent neighborhoods for at least a couple of reasons.  First, as I wrote above, the affluent tend to be well-educated themselves, and thus income is positively correlated with a strong emphasis on education.  Second, affluent families are often single-earner households, where one spouse works and the other has time to devote to the child's education, or where a spouse works part-time.  A single mother who must hold down two jobs can be very committed to education and can emphasize it strenuously at home, but still doesn't have the time that full-time mothers have to be the "squeaky wheel" who essentially supervises and gives regular feedback to the teacher and school.
 
bearfan said:
It does not matter what is in the school books if the teachers will not teach it any way.  People on all sides try to turn schools into social experiments and get their own view in there in social studies/English/History.   But go to non-social classes like science and math, you have teachers get promoted and get raises based tenure versus any achievement and the teachers unions more interested in protecting their own than actually teaching kids.  There are programs now that will forgive student loans for people who go teach in the inner cities, but who would want to when in some cases you are taking your life in your own hands.  We have allowed the inmanted to run the asylum and need to restore some order.

My mom has been working the pat 10 years at a "poor inner city" willingly. Now she is getting her masters "for free" (GK I don't REALLY mean free ok?) as long as she stays there four more years. Many kids out of college do that too. There is a particular organization called Teach for America which is a kind of teaching peace corp started by Princeton graduate not too long ago. The woman herself is a snotty bitch (met her at one of her talks when she visited my University), but does not negate the fact that she is trying to address the very issue Cornfed and LC mentioned. The lack of good, smart, caring teachers. http://www.teachforamerica.org/
 
Very interesting conversation. I'm amazed by the fact 'that parents voluntarily pump additional funds into the school, far beyond what the government allocates'. I don't think I've ever heard anything similar for public school! This is a really great mentality.
 
Well, it's a great mentality if you ignore the fact that, absent the additional donations, the school would be woefully underfunded due to the bureaucracy and mismanagement of state and federal education funds.  Thus the discussion comes full circle: in education, as in everything else, people will pay for good service, and if the service is no good, people will go elsewhere (like private school) if they can, leaving the less fortunate stuck with the crappy schools.  This goes to the point someone made about vouchers and school choice, which gives poorer families the chance to vote with their feet and elect a better school.  Markets work. 
 
And then the government is going to pay for private school with public funds - is this a better solution?
 
cornfedhick said:
Well, it's a great mentality if you ignore the fact that, absent the additional donations, the school would be woefully underfunded due to the bureaucracy and mismanagement of state and federal education funds.  Thus the discussion comes full circle: in education, as in everything else, people will pay for good service, and if the service is no good, people will go elsewhere (like private school) if they can, leaving the less fortunate stuck with the crappy schools.  This goes to the point someone made about vouchers and school choice, which gives poorer families the chance to vote with their feet and elect a better school.  Markets work. 

It's seems more natural to you...  :) Let's stick to the good points:
1) People donate something public, instead of sending their kids in the private. There's something huge in this. Obviously not all the parents can pay, yet these who can, are enough generous to do it despite that fact. In other societies they'd say 'why to pay for my neighbor who doesn't?' I see something beautiful here, should I call it real society, or the milestone for democracy? I don't know, in any case, it's something beautiful.
2) The administration of the school and the state have enough credits /mechanisms to actually do something with that money and not just waste them due to corruption. Again something wonderful.
 
Sorry, but generosity has nothing to do with it.  It is purely self-interest (or at least the interest of your own kids). The alternative is private school (which many in my neighborhood do elect), and supplementing the public school's funding is cheaper.  You get a comparable education at a much lower cost.  It's akin to a subsidized private school.  Which, to answer Loosey's question, I do think is a better idea than the current system, at least in L.A. 

Of course, there are excellent public high schools in the U.S.  I went to public school and got a very solid education, such that I didn't at all feel behind went I went to a selective private college and attended classes with kids who went to famous private boarding schools like Exeter and Choate.  Onhell's original point that wealthier school districts have better schools ( and better roads, police, fire departments, hospitals, etc.) remains true.  My point, however, is that there are epic failures, as well.  In the public schools the epic failures are chronic and persistent, as compared to private school failures that simply go out of business quietly to be replaced by another school. 
 
I guess what I'm worried about with private school, or a subsidized private school system, is that if you use it as a primary system of education, you're going to have the exact same problems as you would with the public system, in the end, because there's not all that more money going towards it. I'm not convinced that it is an area where we can work well, especially when you look at the success of the public education system in the west with establishing new levels of education for generations.

I'm not saying that previous success justifies not changing now - I'm just saying that education is one of those things that everyone should get equal access to.
 
cornfedhick said:
Sorry, but generosity has nothing to do with it.  It is purely self-interest (or at least the interest of your own kids). The alternative is private school (which many in my neighborhood do elect), and supplementing the public school's funding is cheaper.  You get a comparable education at a much lower cost. 

Of course, I thought about those facts, how couldn't I? I still call it generous. Generosity, kindness, compassion and pretty much all social qualities, come out of self interest & deep practical thinking. Someone who believes he can live in wealth & happiness, while his neighbor's starving, is narrow minded, to put it politely. Of course self interest, what else?
 
______no5 said:
Of course, I thought about those facts, how couldn't I? I still call it generous. Generosity, kindness, compassion and pretty much all social qualities, come out of self interest & deep practical thinking. Someone who believes he can live in wealth & happiness, while his neighbor's starving, is narrow minded, to put it politely. Of course self interest, what else?

I think Adam Smith called it Enlightened self-interest... the more I do for others, the better it is for me...
 
Fantastic news, a major part of the Health Care Law, the insurance mandate, has been struck down in Federal court.  Obviously more appeals and courts to come.
 
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