USA Politics
- Thread starter Genghis Khan
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Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison
Why is that? I'm not dis-agreeing with you, I'm just curious as to your reasoning.
Forostar said:
Why is that? I'm not dis-agreeing with you, I'm just curious as to your reasoning.
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison
Powell was lied to by the intelligence agencies. He did what Bush asked him to do. When it became obvious how very much he had been lied to, he chose to resign. I don't blame him more than I blame any Senator or Congressperson who voted to send the US into Iraq.
Forostar said:
Powell was lied to by the intelligence agencies. He did what Bush asked him to do. When it became obvious how very much he had been lied to, he chose to resign. I don't blame him more than I blame any Senator or Congressperson who voted to send the US into Iraq.
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison
Also, didn't he argue with Bushco for hours over this fiasco?
Also, didn't he argue with Bushco for hours over this fiasco?
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison
Interesting thing I found out the other day. My (ex) mother-in-law, who has always been a one issue voter (pro-life, she's catholic) is acting as if she really wants to vote for Obama, and is thinking of going against the official church 'suggestions' to do so. I find that interesting, because I have known her for 17 years and she has never deviated. Makes me wonder how many others there must be like that. ON the other hand, her youngest daughter (all of 20), is a big Bush and McCain follower, stating that it isn't Bush's fault at all over the economy, its all the Americans that waste their money at burger king. I don't talk politics to that one.
I guess, all in all, the things I have heard lately lead me to believe that most people around the country are just looking for an excuse to vote for a change in our lives.
Interesting thing I found out the other day. My (ex) mother-in-law, who has always been a one issue voter (pro-life, she's catholic) is acting as if she really wants to vote for Obama, and is thinking of going against the official church 'suggestions' to do so. I find that interesting, because I have known her for 17 years and she has never deviated. Makes me wonder how many others there must be like that. ON the other hand, her youngest daughter (all of 20), is a big Bush and McCain follower, stating that it isn't Bush's fault at all over the economy, its all the Americans that waste their money at burger king. I don't talk politics to that one.
I guess, all in all, the things I have heard lately lead me to believe that most people around the country are just looking for an excuse to vote for a change in our lives.
Onhell
Infinite Dreamer
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison
She's partially right, I think. The economy is not the president's doing, whether good or bad. The Economy has a life of it's own and all the president (congress actually) can really do is TRY and manipulate it. I think it is stupid to say that the economy failed or succeeded because of ONE man... that's BS. Now she is saying "at all"... that's bs too
She's partially right, I think. The economy is not the president's doing, whether good or bad. The Economy has a life of it's own and all the president (congress actually) can really do is TRY and manipulate it. I think it is stupid to say that the economy failed or succeeded because of ONE man... that's BS. Now she is saying "at all"... that's bs too
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison
OH, I know, he (Bush) can't control it all by himself. However, his administration, the people he puts into important places like the Federal Reserve and the Sec of Treasury, they have an impact on how things go. And his administration has an affect on other things that shape the economy, so while I may not be able to hold him personally, I can hold his administration responsible for some of the actions. I think that LC pointed to a lack of enforcement on regulations still in play. Trust me, I know that it is a total cluster fuck and many people are responsible for it. But the (ex) sis-in-law has a really warped view of the way that the world works.
OH, I know, he (Bush) can't control it all by himself. However, his administration, the people he puts into important places like the Federal Reserve and the Sec of Treasury, they have an impact on how things go. And his administration has an affect on other things that shape the economy, so while I may not be able to hold him personally, I can hold his administration responsible for some of the actions. I think that LC pointed to a lack of enforcement on regulations still in play. Trust me, I know that it is a total cluster fuck and many people are responsible for it. But the (ex) sis-in-law has a really warped view of the way that the world works.
Onhell
Infinite Dreamer
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison
ok, NOW I'm definitely transcribing the article I just read in America: The National Catholic Weekly. It's got some good stuff I'm sure will give people plenty to talk about.
As far as Religion and voting goes I'm always perplexed by Catholics voting for Republicans, they just don't fit. To what my mom said, "it fits if you're RICH Catholic."
ok, NOW I'm definitely transcribing the article I just read in America: The National Catholic Weekly. It's got some good stuff I'm sure will give people plenty to talk about.
As far as Religion and voting goes I'm always perplexed by Catholics voting for Republicans, they just don't fit. To what my mom said, "it fits if you're RICH Catholic."
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison
Ha ha, that's a good quote! I have always been under the impression (from our local priest) that they seem to base a lot of their voting recommendations on the pro-life issue. Every thing else seems to come second after that.
Ha ha, that's a good quote! I have always been under the impression (from our local priest) that they seem to base a lot of their voting recommendations on the pro-life issue. Every thing else seems to come second after that.
Cornfed Hick
Ancient Mariner
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison
Republicans tend to be pro-life/anti-abortion (depending on your viewpoint), Democrats aren't. That's why. One reason a Catholic might vote for Obama is that McCain is less strident about abortion that previous Republican candidates.
As an aside, abortion is a very unusual political issue, to say the least. It's one of the few issues in which both sides are probably right, in their own way, and yet it is more polarizing than most, if not all, other political issues. On the one hand, it seems immoral to force a woman to have a baby against her will, particularly given that it usually involves men telling women what to do with their bodies, and particularly if that baby will be born into a near-hopeless life of poverty, drugs and misery. On the other hand, it also seems immoral to scrape human fetuses out of the womb simply for the sake of convenience -- even the most adamant pro-choice advocates, once they are about to become a parent and see their own children as first-trimester fetuses on ultrasound, will at least question their pro-choice beliefs, if only for a moment, because those little fuckers look just like tiny people. And, even though both sides have a point, most people feel very strongly one way or the other. Many of those people view it as the issue most important to them: A person who would otherwise agree with virtually every plank in the Republican platform might vote Democrat just to preserve the right to abortion, whereas another person who would otherwise agree with virtually every plank in the Democratic platform might vote Republican just to limit or ban a practice they view as being akin to murder. Abortion is perhaps a bit less polarizing now than it was ten years ago, at least in the U.S., in part because Roe v. Wade is probably less assailable now than it was then. I'm curious how significant a political issue it is in other countries?
Republicans tend to be pro-life/anti-abortion (depending on your viewpoint), Democrats aren't. That's why. One reason a Catholic might vote for Obama is that McCain is less strident about abortion that previous Republican candidates.
As an aside, abortion is a very unusual political issue, to say the least. It's one of the few issues in which both sides are probably right, in their own way, and yet it is more polarizing than most, if not all, other political issues. On the one hand, it seems immoral to force a woman to have a baby against her will, particularly given that it usually involves men telling women what to do with their bodies, and particularly if that baby will be born into a near-hopeless life of poverty, drugs and misery. On the other hand, it also seems immoral to scrape human fetuses out of the womb simply for the sake of convenience -- even the most adamant pro-choice advocates, once they are about to become a parent and see their own children as first-trimester fetuses on ultrasound, will at least question their pro-choice beliefs, if only for a moment, because those little fuckers look just like tiny people. And, even though both sides have a point, most people feel very strongly one way or the other. Many of those people view it as the issue most important to them: A person who would otherwise agree with virtually every plank in the Republican platform might vote Democrat just to preserve the right to abortion, whereas another person who would otherwise agree with virtually every plank in the Democratic platform might vote Republican just to limit or ban a practice they view as being akin to murder. Abortion is perhaps a bit less polarizing now than it was ten years ago, at least in the U.S., in part because Roe v. Wade is probably less assailable now than it was then. I'm curious how significant a political issue it is in other countries?
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison
In most modern democracies, abortion isn't an issue at all. There are some countries (Belgium comes to mind) where abortion is illegal, but in most, it's legal and carefully practiced. Many countries push sex ed for children and make contraceptives widely available to reduce the amount of abortions that occur. Nobody wants to see abortions happen. But it's a decision that shouldn't be left to the state, IMO. I think Obama's message of reducing the number of abortions has gotten through to some of those one-issue voters, especially those who are rather paying attention. Statistics show that the "abstinence" method of fighting abortions has utterly and totally failed - Alaska and Alabama are two great examples of that. Some don't care about statistics, which is fine, and they will probably vote GOP forever (or until the GOP finally finishes splintering).
In most modern democracies, abortion isn't an issue at all. There are some countries (Belgium comes to mind) where abortion is illegal, but in most, it's legal and carefully practiced. Many countries push sex ed for children and make contraceptives widely available to reduce the amount of abortions that occur. Nobody wants to see abortions happen. But it's a decision that shouldn't be left to the state, IMO. I think Obama's message of reducing the number of abortions has gotten through to some of those one-issue voters, especially those who are rather paying attention. Statistics show that the "abstinence" method of fighting abortions has utterly and totally failed - Alaska and Alabama are two great examples of that. Some don't care about statistics, which is fine, and they will probably vote GOP forever (or until the GOP finally finishes splintering).
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison
My kids have been asking me about this election a lot lately. They were asking about the abortion issue, and said that I didn't think that any pres was going to be personally instrumental in turning roe v wade. I know they can put in justices that would be 'sympathetic' towards that end, but its to the point that I have a hard time believing that it will ever be turned. cornfedhick would know more than I, but I think we spoke of this before, how precedent has so much power now. So, for me, the 'abortion issue' is off the table for me. They (my kids) seemed comfortable with it.
On another note, I was sad to hear that they are doing an elementary school election, and kids are telling other kids that if they don't vote for McCain, they won't play with the other kids. My daughters were asking if it was illegal to threaten someone to vote a certain way. So, we had some long discussions about voting and peoples right... I told them that many people had died to give them the right to vote, so don't let some kids dissuade them. Ah, politics!!
My kids have been asking me about this election a lot lately. They were asking about the abortion issue, and said that I didn't think that any pres was going to be personally instrumental in turning roe v wade. I know they can put in justices that would be 'sympathetic' towards that end, but its to the point that I have a hard time believing that it will ever be turned. cornfedhick would know more than I, but I think we spoke of this before, how precedent has so much power now. So, for me, the 'abortion issue' is off the table for me. They (my kids) seemed comfortable with it.
On another note, I was sad to hear that they are doing an elementary school election, and kids are telling other kids that if they don't vote for McCain, they won't play with the other kids. My daughters were asking if it was illegal to threaten someone to vote a certain way. So, we had some long discussions about voting and peoples right... I told them that many people had died to give them the right to vote, so don't let some kids dissuade them. Ah, politics!!
Onhell
Infinite Dreamer
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison
Abortion and Gay Marriage are not issues at all in my book. The reason they become issues is, like a few of you have said, they are emotionally charged and strike a nerve in some folks. I don't think they are issues for the following reasons. Abortion is framed in the "you're taking a life" or "don't tell me what to do with my body" arguments. While there is validity in that I think it is ultimately a HEALTH concern. Women die from illegal (and legal of course, but rarely) abortions. The state has the responsibility to look after its citizens, including their health which is why I think it is a good thing to have legalized abortion along with sex ed.
Gay Marriage in the same light has been made a religious issue when it is not. Religions can damn homosexuals all they want and deny them a white dress church wedding all they want, they do have that right. But the state does not. Again, the state has to extend the same rights to ALL their citizens regardless of sexual orientation, creed, etc, etc. When people (Media) talk about "Gay Marriage" they are NOT talking about church weddings, they are talking about civil marriage, yet talk about the "sanctity" of it.... that's bullshit. The state HAS TO allow ALL its citizens to enjoy the same rights... including marriage of homosexuals, because if they love each other and decide to live together like millions of heterosexuals do they deserve the same rights. including hospital visits and inheritance. I think it's fuck up people can leave their houses and fortunes to their CATS, but gay people can't leave squat to their partners they've lived with for the past 10, 20 years.
Abortion and Gay Marriage are not issues at all in my book. The reason they become issues is, like a few of you have said, they are emotionally charged and strike a nerve in some folks. I don't think they are issues for the following reasons. Abortion is framed in the "you're taking a life" or "don't tell me what to do with my body" arguments. While there is validity in that I think it is ultimately a HEALTH concern. Women die from illegal (and legal of course, but rarely) abortions. The state has the responsibility to look after its citizens, including their health which is why I think it is a good thing to have legalized abortion along with sex ed.
Gay Marriage in the same light has been made a religious issue when it is not. Religions can damn homosexuals all they want and deny them a white dress church wedding all they want, they do have that right. But the state does not. Again, the state has to extend the same rights to ALL their citizens regardless of sexual orientation, creed, etc, etc. When people (Media) talk about "Gay Marriage" they are NOT talking about church weddings, they are talking about civil marriage, yet talk about the "sanctity" of it.... that's bullshit. The state HAS TO allow ALL its citizens to enjoy the same rights... including marriage of homosexuals, because if they love each other and decide to live together like millions of heterosexuals do they deserve the same rights. including hospital visits and inheritance. I think it's fuck up people can leave their houses and fortunes to their CATS, but gay people can't leave squat to their partners they've lived with for the past 10, 20 years.
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison
Sadly, there's only three states in the union that extend the same rights to gay couples as to straight couples.
Sadly, there's only three states in the union that extend the same rights to gay couples as to straight couples.
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison
Sadly, yes. However, that is a fact that has changed in the last few months. If you were to compare that statement to one made a year ago, it would be 'happily' instead. I think that Mass was the only one a few months back, however, now CA is included in that (so far) and one other 'New England' state (if memory serves). So, it looks as if we (the States) are getting better! (slowly)
LooseCannon said:
Sadly, yes. However, that is a fact that has changed in the last few months. If you were to compare that statement to one made a year ago, it would be 'happily' instead. I think that Mass was the only one a few months back, however, now CA is included in that (so far) and one other 'New England' state (if memory serves). So, it looks as if we (the States) are getting better! (slowly)
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison
Vermont subscribes to the Plessy v. Ferguson model of civil rights in establishing separate but supposedly equal classifications for gays vs. straight people. Only Connecticut, California, and Massachusetts extend full marriage rights to homosexual couples.
Vermont subscribes to the Plessy v. Ferguson model of civil rights in establishing separate but supposedly equal classifications for gays vs. straight people. Only Connecticut, California, and Massachusetts extend full marriage rights to homosexual couples.
