USA Politics

As to your previous post, what would you have us do? I'm not certain what was used as an explosive, but you can't just make 'everything' illegal. There are so many things that are 'normal' products that can be made into dangerous, I don't know what one would expect done.
 
I just wanted to get it off my chest.

I don't really expect to convince you two, that certain rights are more important than others. Actually, I guess you will keep supporting politicians who don't care either.
 
Here's the problem, bearfan - I don't think guns are a right. It's a place I differ from much classical liberalism, when I mix it with my modern, socialist interpretation.
 
Forostar said:
I just wanted to get it off my chest.

I don't really expect to convince you two, that certain rights are more important than others. Actually, I guess you will keep supporting politicians who don't care either.
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Like the right to not needing to fear being shot.
 
Hmm... decent points from LooseCannon & Forostar.

Personally, I don't really see how "an eye for eye" (I've always assumed this is the thinking behind the death penalty) is morally justified. So people kill folk; & we condemn this. We then kill (execute) them. And this is punishment &/or Justice? I don't get it. This says just as much about us (the US in this case) as it does about the killer(s). I'm not saying this is going to happen in this case, but clearly some people think this is what should happen. I've never understood this. The example, recently, of the Saudi's medically paralysing some guy who had committed a crime that left the victim paralysed, springs to mind; if I have it correct. How far does one take this? I agree with others: it would be more useful to find out why they did this. Them both being dead doesn't strike me as particularly helpful/useful.

Guns? I don't really know enough about what ordinary Americans actually think about their gun laws to comment. What do you (US members) think about your country's relationship with guns?
 
LooseCannon said:
Here's the problem, bearfan - I don't think guns are a right. It's a place I differ from much classical liberalism, when I mix it with my modern, socialist interpretation.
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But it is in the US ... " the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
 
Sure it is...in order to keep a well-regulated militia, that is. The states can manage that just fine without every asshole buying any gun whenever they want.
 
Here is the thing .. most all the "assholes" who buy the guns do not do anything bad with them. This whole round of anti gun mania has come from these mass shooting ... which are horrible, no doubt. However, whenever the debate comes up, someone whips out the the "there is more gun violence in the US than anywhere argument". I would like to see how many of those were from legal gun overs versus people who stole or illegally bought the guns. My guess is that it is the majority of gun crimes come from that. If Obama and/or Congress really wanted to do something about guns, they would work hard on cracking down on gangs, modifying laws that give the gangs their power, and existing laws to take the illegal guns off the street.

The expanded background check bill that failed in the Senate would have done nothing for any of this. All of the grandstanding Obama and some other politicians have done about this issue really addresses nothing of importance. But, it makes for nice press for them.
 
I have no problem with background checks because I have nothing to hide. But what a lot people either fail to realize or accept is that in general criminals don't purchase their weapons at gun stores or gun shows, therefore the expanded background checks would have no effect on them. For some reason nobody has been able to explain that fact to Obama, that's why he lost on that vote.
 
Everyone's an asshole sometimes. A few people are assholes most of the time.

Despite what it might sound like, I don't have a problem with gun ownership as a concept. I have a problem with unlimited, unregulated gun ownership as a right. All rights have reasonable limitations, and I think reasonable limitations on gun ownership should be required whether or not there is a right to that ownership.

I'm all for cracking down on gangs and getting illegal guns off the streets. But that means turning off the pipeline at the source - which means cracking down the point where an legal gun becomes an illegal gun. That means heavy regulation of gun store owners, that means closing the gun show loophole. That means making it illegal, or at least difficult, to sell privately owned guns. It means forcing gun companies to have extra security on shipments to gun stores. You gotta do that at the same time you make other changes, or what's the fucking point?

Background checks make sense because they will ensure nobody who has a history of violence gets a legal gun. Sure, then they are going to look for illegal guns, but there's nothing to stop that from the first place. If we have a national database of people with mental illnesses, then this too could be added in. The reason for failure does not need to be provided to the gun shop owner, and modern technology makes it stupidly efficient (think the eVerify system, but for gun owners). Why not do it? It cannot hurt, and it might stop some of the high-profile crimes. Not all of them, but some of them. I think it makes more sense than cooldown times do.

I can list off more ideas for laws or regulations that would help solve the gun problem, but there's no interest in Washington for nearly-meaningless regulations, let alone ones that would a) help ensure violence happens less with guns, b) keep guns out of the hands of bad guys, and c) reduce the likelyhood of gun-related domestic crime and accidents. But there's 0 emphasis for doing so, because the gun culture of the USA is "they want to make a minor change to how we do things? OMFG."
 
maidenn.c.indiana said:
in general criminals don't purchase their weapons at gun stores or gun shows
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Gun shows are the second most likely way for a legal gun to become an illegal gun according to research done by the ATF. The number one way is crooked gun shop owners. The third most likely method is weapons stolen during shipment, and a far distant fourth in the USA are weapons illegally imported to the country.
 
Forostar said:
I just wanted to get it off my chest.

I don't really expect to convince you two, that certain rights are more important than others. Actually, I guess you will keep supporting politicians who don't care either.
Click to expand...

I still don't understand what you are implying. What do you want to be made illegal?
 
I envy America for having so many weapons - they have a much bigger chance of survival during a zombie apocalypse than I have in Serbia. No weapons...anywhere. Unless you're a cop or in the army.
 
I still don't see any moral argument being put forward as to why you need to own a gun. Continually quoting your constitution is not a valid argument. As for gangs & guns: when I see reports on the news about mass killings in the US they don't seem to have anything to do with gangs or "criminals" --the perpetrators seem to be young, male, loners. (As they are when these atrocities are carried in other parts of the world too e.g. Norway, Scotland, etc.)

Simple question: forget the constitution --why do you need to own a gun?
 
LooseCannon said:
Gun shows are the second most likely way for a legal gun to become an illegal gun according to research done by the ATF. The number one way is crooked gun shop owners. The third most likely method is weapons stolen during shipment, and a far distant fourth in the USA are weapons illegally imported to the country.
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I do not think that is accurate.

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According to the Justice Department, more than 1.4 million guns were stolen or lost between 2005 and 2010.​
Former ATF Assistant Director Bouchard says crooks have easy access to cheap stolen guns on the street.​
"If you talk to any criminal, they can find a gun within an hour or two. Cheaper guns that were stolen can be sold for $50. On the street, a typical good handgun will run you $200 to $300," Bouchard said.​
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CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
why do you need to own a gun?
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Dude, I just told you, zombie apocalypse
zombie_run.gif
 
Indeed, that would be a pretty decent reason. Why would the constitution have made provision for this though? Was there a big zombie problem way back then?
 
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