USA Politics

If you are waiting on any form of government or economic theory to take care and provide for you. then I'm sorry but you are a fucking idiot. I don't care if the U.S. is capitalist, marxist, or what ever kind of ist you want to classify it. All I know and it was the way I was raised is that if you want something. then get off your ass and go and earn it. That is the biggest problem with the U.S. today, too many lazy bastards wanting the government to support them and their entire families. I have personally gone through some rough financial times of my own. yet I am proud to say that I never asked for nor recieved entitlements like welfare, food stamps, etc. And every paycheck I have ever earned has a a tax for FICA ( social security ) taken out and I already know that when it comes time for me to retire I'll never see a fucking dime from what I paid into it. But you know what, I'll be o.k. because I haven't planned or expected the government to take care of me.
 
Speaking of unions I was a member of the U.A.W. one of the biggest if not the biggest union in this country. And while they did do some good things for myself and my fellow workers, when the shit hit the fan the union leaders looked after and took care of themselves and sold us workers down the fucking river.
 
If someone does not want support, fine. And if that someone does not have a rat's ass to spend when "the time comes", that's also fine (if that person says so himself).

But I wouldn't judge the personal situation of all other countrymen too easily. What person A can call rough times, person B might call it a piece of cake compared with his own deeper shit. Shit which can be difficult to get out alone.

Situations can be different, but people are as well:
Not everybody is able to take care of themselves in an equal way. People are different, have learnt different things, have different abilities, can have reasons for motivation or for lacking it. It'd be ignorant to deny it.

Better work on it, stimulate it, change it. Provide, help. Think about the future. Wouldn't that be better than seeing a country as a static society, split up in two classes: a perfectly self caring super class bothered by the other: this continuously rotting go-fuck-themselves subhuman class.
 
I really don't get why some people see caring more about society and society's goods better than yourself means that you can sit back, relax and let the money come to you without earning it. It's exactly the opposite. In a society that cares more about the society itself works harder than the ones who only care about individuality. Because in individualism working your ass off will only mean money for you while in socialism (by socialism I don't mean the economic system of the same name) working your ass off means you will rise along with other people which makes it harder to shine therefore meaning you should work harder. Invidiualism can make someone seem as the best of a bad bunch.
 
Flash, have you had much exposure to modern union workplace?
(Assuming those over there are similar to those over here.)
 
Contrary to what you may think, I'm not a heartless bastard. I'm glad and support programs that help people who unfortunately have legitimate disabilities, be they mental or physical. What gets my goat are the people who have nothing wrong with them that would prevent them from working and supporting themselves, yet they choose to scam the system. I feel sorry for the young girl who made a mistake and got pregnent by a worthless bastard who won't support her or the child. But then that girl should'nt then go out and have another 4 kids from 3 different guys just because the government will give her more money. Unfortunately I have no insurance so if I get sick or injured and need medical treatment then I have to pay for the services. Yet there are untold numbers of people who have nothing physicallly wrong with them that would prevent them from working who choose not to and yet they get medicaid and basically get free medical services. Now a lot of that could be stopped if the our government would crack down on the people abusing the system. But then again what the hell happened to the notion of personal responsiblity?
 
maidenn.c.indiana said:
Contrary to what you may think, I'm not a heartless bastard. I'm glad and support programs that help people who unfortunately have legitimate disabilities, be they mental or physical. What gets my goat are the people who have nothing wrong with them that would prevent them from working and supporting themselves, yet they choose to scam the system. I feel sorry for the young girl who made a mistake and got pregnent by a worthless bastard who won't support her or the child. But then that girl should'nt then go out and have another 4 kids from 3 different guys just because the government will give her more money. Unfortunately I have no insurance so if I get sick or injured and need medical treatment then I have to pay for the services. Yet there are untold numbers of people who have nothing physicallly wrong with them that would prevent them from working who choose not to and yet they get medicaid and basically get free medical services. Now a lot of that could be stopped if the our government would crack down on the people abusing the system. But then again what the hell happened to the notion of personal responsiblity?
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Nicely put, the analogy I think of is someone coming to your house and saying “I had a bad turn, could you help me out” versus “I am not really planning on doing anything the rest of my life and you are going to take care of me and my family the rest of your life … where is the fridge … and buy me an iPhone”

The US government has created a culture of dependency and the thought that nothing is anyone’s fault.

The problem goes well beyond this, in that the government programs have created multi generations of people who do not know how to become productive members of society, but can fill out a benefits form with their eyes closed. It is almost hard to blame the 2nd or 3rd generation, because this is how they were brought up and the only life they know. It is incredibly destructive to any sense of human dignity when you go through life depending on others working for you.
 
The Flash said:
I have no clue what do you mean by modern union workplace.
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Here's how the union movement has worked in my part of the world:
1) Entrepreneur sees opportunity to make money, hires workers.
2) Boss pushes to keep costs down, productivity up. Workers suffer, boss gets rich
3) Workers demand better wages and working conditions, battle ensues
4) Things get messy, culture of mistrust established, but equilibrium reached
5) As profits rise, wages and comforts rise with them. Workers become entitled
6) Profits disappear, bosses institute/demand cuts. Workers deny issues exist, battles ensue
7) Factories close, jobs disappear.

My point is all "isms" generally fail because it is human nature to put "me and mine" first and not trust "the other guy."
People tend to invest in the social collective only when it will improve the standing of themselves and those they care about.
They are influenced, and their views are reinforced, by those closest to them who — surprise! — have similar needs, backgrounds and, therefore, views.
I realize I'm generalizing here, and I'm certainly not picking on unions. Corporations, political parties, tribes, churches — historically, the evidence shows all human collectives have tended to behave the same way.

People who embrace the ideal described in your post do exist. But sociologically speaking, the survival instinct wins out. That type of altruism has not proven sustainable in large groups over time.
 
I guess I just don't believe the US government has created an actual culture of dependency. I think that's a buzzword. I also think that the "examples" we see cited are extremes and occasional. Most people on unemployment want to work, take advantage of programs to get their asses back to work. There are people in the USA on this forum who've done just that. And I would imagine for every person abusing the system, there are dozens of success stories.

My biggest problem with unions is exactly what maidenn.c.indiana has said - the top execs act in their own best interest, not the best interest of the people they represent, when shit hits the fans. They also seem to harm the industry, which is why I think it's only fair if you regulate industry, you should regulate unions too. When you see unions resisting job cuts or industry streamlining, it always seems to me to be that those unions want to keep their receipts up. Doesn't make much sense.
 
Maiden indiana: do you have some stats to show the size of the problem you described?

About unions (explanation partly taken from wiki, because it´s easier to explain):
In my country the labour unions play a major role in the economy because they bargain with employers' organizations over wages and working conditions (these deals are binding for all employed people), and they advise the government on economic legislation through its membership of the Social-Economic Council (SER). The Social-Economic Council is a major economic advisory council of the Dutch government. Formally it heads a system of sector-based regulatory organizations. It represents the social partners trade unions and employers' organizations. It forms the core organization of the corporatist and social market economy known as the polder model and the main platform for social dialogue.
 
These are the latest statistics I could find:
As of August 2010 there were 4.4 million citizens on welfare, 37 .2 million receiving food stamps, and 9.1 million receiving TANF ( Temprary Assistance for Needy Families) which comes to 50.7 million receiving governement support. Being that the U.S. population is approximately 300 million that means that about 1/6 of the population is receiving some form of government assistance. Now I won't throw a blanket over the entire number and say that they're all lazy bums who are scamming the systems, some of these people legitimately need the help. However the U.S. Dept of labor estimates that of the above numbers, 1.6% or 8.1 million are cases of welfare fraud.

Unwanted/unplanned pregnancies:
In 1994 the number of unwanted/unplanned pregnancies for women below the poverty line was 88 out of every 1,000 births (0.088%)
As of 2006 that number had increased to 132 out of every 1,000 births (0.132%) by comaparison the number of unwanted/unplanned pregnancies for women at or above the poverty line were in 1994 34 out of every 1,000 births (0.034%). As of 2006 that number had decreased to 24 out of every 1,000 births (0.024%) How in the world does it make sense that the women who can least afford to have children are the one's having them? There are plenty of programs like Planned Parenthood who provide free condoms and birth control pills so lack of funds is no excuse. Once again I will not throw a blanket over all these women and say they're having all these kids to get more money. However during the tax season I volunteer and help needy families to file their taxes and I have personally done the taxes for several women who have 3, 4, even 5 kids who each have a different name. The women don't work but because of the kids they recieve EIC (earned income tax credit) and I'm talking about them getting $8,000-$10,000 in a tax refund AND THEY BITCH ABOUT IT and say they should get more. THEY DIDN"T HAVE A JOB AND DID NOT WORK ALL YEAR! Meanwhile Iwork and have to pay the government and state $1,000. And these women are not stupid. They know when they have to file and some of them can tell you to the dollar amount what they should be getting back. Sorry but sometimes it takes all my self control to not go off on them.
 
Dude, if 1.6% of 50.7 million are frauds, that is 811,000 people. And that is a pretty small percentage. Not perfect, but it's pretty good - and to be honest, that seems like a lot of people who are being helped. Let's figure out how to better identify those people and fix it. Get 'em off the system and into work. That can be done, and it's a reasonable solution.

As for unwanted pregnancies, the prime problem there is education. Planned Parenthood is a great organization and I can only imagine how many more pregnant girls there'd be without it. But many states don't teach their kids how to use condoms. Many states are trying to defund Planned Parenthood and take away the valuable work they do. Raising kids is hard, man, and it's a tough place to go between, again, some people are screwing the pooch. But how many of those people are in states with above-average unwanted pregnancies, and how many of those states are trying to get rid of Planned Parenthood/have gotten rid of it/don't teach sex ed?

I want to reduce welfare fraud and I want to reduce unwanted pregnancies. Blaming the people in the system doesn't help anyone. Fixing the system with reasonable solutions does.
 
There are two issues IMO ... one is straight out fraud. The government should go after fraud more aggresively and lay down some pretty harsh penalties IMO for that ... to extremely harsh for major cases.


The second issue is how these programs operate to begin with, there is a large class of people that for generation after generation live on these benefits and comit what I will call passive fraud ... maxing out every benefit for as long as possible, with minimal prodding towards getting off of welfare and have zero problem being a burden on society.

I will note, I am limiting my comments towards those that can work and do not have legitimate disabilities.
 
I'm curious to know if the numbers that were quoted overlap at all... I mean, if there are 37 million people on food stamps, aren't they likely on welfare and possibly TANF as well? Or am I miss reading.
 
I don't know if there is any overlap. I quoted the numbers as presented, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were some overlap. Bearfan is right when he talks about welfare abuse being a generational problem. If all a kid sees growing up is his parents living in subsidized housing, getting food stamps and free medical care, well then there is nothing to show that kid that there is abetter way of life. It becomes a never ending vicious cycle. I agree that Planned Parenthood is under attack in some states, but for the most part they are under attack because they talk about abortion which sends the religious right into a tizzy. I can see a girl getting pregnant once due to lack of good parenting, sex ed., lack of common sense, etc. But I'm pretty sure that if you been pregnant once then you know how you got that way and how to prevent it from happening again. And I'm sorry but their are people who are knowingly scamming the system, and those people are the one's who should be blamed. The system will never be fixed as long as there are people out there who are determined to have other's pay for their way of life.
 
I think that's what Loosey is getting at (actually, he's stated that many times before); this won't change without education. If the state really does want to get generational welfare ended, it will have to invest some heavy funds in a solid program that helps people get out of that hole. Yes, it would probably be very costly, but if you figure it out over the course of generations, the money would be well spent. Honestly, I was unemployed, laid off twice, the first time for about 3 months until I got a job, the second time for closer to 8 months. I was lucky to be able to take advantage of one of the Workforce Investement Act's educational programs and got an A+ IT certificate, which led to my current job. There are a ton of opportunities out there for people to take, but I think that the caseloads are really big, and, sadly, I think the case workers just don't have a decent clue. I My poor case worker chick just was always out of the loop.

One thing I'm hugely in favor of is the drug testing for receiving welfare checks, food stamps, etc.
 
I am not. Studies have shown, over and over, that such just isn't a problem. There's a constitutional problem with that too (4th amendment, after all).
 
I have no problem with drug testing for those requesting aid. Not that I belive there is a big problem with drugs but I'm sure that their are some people getting assistance while also getting high. Drugs seem to permeate every other sector of society so it only stands to reason that it affects that sector also. And I'm not aware of any constitutional problem, I've never had a job that did not have some form of drug testing as a requirement for employment. I'm sure there are some jobs that don't test, but for any good paying job you're going to have piss in a cup or the new one is that they test a strand of your hair.
 
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