If you are a, say, Dutch citizen, and you decide to move to, I don't know, Sweden. Can you vote in the EU elections?
UK Politics
- Thread starter CriedWhenBrucieLeft
- Start date
GhostofCain
Ancient Mariner
You would be allowed to vote in the EU elections (to elect Members of the European parliament), but not in the Swedish elections (i.e. you would not have a say on who is elected in Sweden, even though you are resident in that country and paying taxes there). Effectively, you are a second class citizen, good enough to work and pay taxes but not to vote.
In the UK up until I became a citizen I could vote in local elections and European elections, but not the the UK national elections.
It makes some sense, in my opinion, to withhold national voting rights from non-citizens, even if they reside permanently in the country. This sort of thing is what naturalisations are for. If you care enough for a country to want to vote and be represented in its parliament, you should become its citizen. However, I think this should not go for local elections, because these affect the immediate surroundings someone lives in. Even if someone only lives in a place for, say, twelve years, they should have a right to participate in that place's development.
EU elections are something completely different.
EU elections are something completely different.
GhostofCain
Ancient Mariner
I would argue that having the right to say how the taxes one has been paying affects your life in many aspects and the only way you can have a say on that is having national voting rights.
I have not been living in my country of birth since 2010. Why should I be allowed to vote in the national elections when I do not live/do not pay any taxes there and not those who do these things but do not hold that nationality? It does not make any sense to me.
I would argue that having the right to say how the taxes one has been paying affects your life in many aspects and the only way you can have a say on that is having national voting rights.
I have not been living in my country of birth since 2010. Why should I be allowed to vote in the national elections when I do not live/do not pay any taxes there and not those who do these things but do not hold that nationality? It does not make any sense to me.
The obvious solution to this problem is becoming a naturalised citizen in the country you choose to live in... why would you keep citizenship of a country if you want to live, work and vote in another country?
If this is such a strong bond, then why vote for a country you don't want to be a citizen of?
GhostofCain
Ancient Mariner
Sure, and that is what I have done, but in many countries it is by no means easy even if you want to and can be a much lengthier process.
And, in the meantime, the person is still a commodity and a second class citizen.
Last edited:
I get that, but still. Voting is not just a right, it is also a responsibility. It's not just about you. You are participating in a process that affects everyone in the country, and you owe it to the society as a whole, especially if it is one you chose to live in, and weren't born in to, to give a statement of commitment. By casting a vote, like it or not, you are also stating that you belong to this country, and that you are a part of its society. Otherwise, anyone could just go anywhere, vote for some random shit and then leave if they figure that they don't like it without taking responsibility for cleaning up the potential mess they created.
One of the reasons democracy is currently in a crisis, as I see it, is that the sense of entitlement (the rights) outweighs the sense of responsibility (the duties). People have become so self-centred that they often forget that they are a part of a society, and that the world doesn't revolve around them. Voting isn't just about having a say where your taxes go, it's also about participating in the decision where everyone else's taxes go. Democracy is about participation, and it is about finding ways and solutions together with others, not about making things go just the way you want them.
One of the reasons democracy is currently in a crisis, as I see it, is that the sense of entitlement (the rights) outweighs the sense of responsibility (the duties). People have become so self-centred that they often forget that they are a part of a society, and that the world doesn't revolve around them. Voting isn't just about having a say where your taxes go, it's also about participating in the decision where everyone else's taxes go. Democracy is about participation, and it is about finding ways and solutions together with others, not about making things go just the way you want them.
D
Deleted member 7164
Guest
Our local problem is that everything revolves around certificate of nationality. It is the citizenship. Therefore it means that people who aren't actually citizens get to vote. The inability of all citizens to vote properly is less of a problem, this is bigger and allows someone who never stepped foot here to have a say, just 'cause of bloodline. Now the inability of all citizens to vote properly is sourced in the nationality bullshit, where as a Croat national you vote parliament regardless of yourself being a 7th gen. martian, as registered national minority (neighbours around us mostly) you vote only for your rep. (like Jews in Iran), others can go f. themselves.
It's totally wrong. You pay tax, you get to vote. Simple. If you don't want foreigners to vote then don't accept their tax. What they do is tax work, tax consumption and tax living from people who don't even have a single legal channel to the authoritites. Maybe some embassy or consulate. It's shit.
GhostofCain
Ancient Mariner
Fair enough. I am well aware that voting is a responsibility and one that I value immensely, as my parents only could vote when they were in their 30s and my grandparents spent most of the life not having the right to vote. I only used the taxpayer from a permanent resident's point of view as an example of ways of contributing to society and funding, among many other things, the welfare state that I do strongly believe in. I should add that I fulfil my duties as a British citizen and I am an active member of British society. That is probably why I feel so strongly about the whole issue.
Anyway, and going back to your original post about only citizens having the right to vote, there is two sides to the argument. In my opinion, having the right to vote in a country where you have never lived or not lived for a considerable period of time just because you happen to hold that nationality is probably not right either.
Last edited:
No, I don't think I accept the concept that as soon as you pay taxes you should get to vote. Voting should be a little more than whether or not you financially contribute to the government income of a country. If that were so, then CEOs would get to vote in multiple elections around the world, for example. Similarly, if I visit the UK and pay VAT on my purchases, should I then be entitled to vote? Voters should have a tie to a place deeper than finance.
GhostofCain
Ancient Mariner
It is not just a matter of paying taxes, but of paying taxes as a permanent resident.
D
Deleted member 7164
Guest
I should expand on my thoughts but not "as soon" you pay. Also there are multiple levels and top level (parliament) steers the country while local county elections are mostly about county stuff. We aren't going to build a depo here, it's going to be there, and we're going to support project X and not project Y. This kind of stuff affects people living there, and if someone is paying taxes 5 years in a row I don't see why he wouldn't have a say about things in front of his door.
I get your perspective and you're right. Things need to be in between. However keep in mind that if you work for a multinational, you're getting paid from the local office, or foreign office if the country in question has bilateral agreements with yours for sharing tax and other private finance info.
When you visited UK you paid VAT which is paid once by the customer, regardless of the nationality. If you aren't a national, e.g. there is enough proof that the item isn't going to be in a country, you're a Canadian and you're going home situation, you ask for a VAT refund. Unless two countries in question have special trade agreements.
Regardless of VAT, you weren't a resident with work permit in UK so you weren't servicing all the other taxes that come with employment, housing and everything else. What I'm arguing is the fact that these people pay the exact same amount into the treasury, and until they explicitly get their certificate of nationality - no vote.
There should be a line where you get automatically get declared "practically English", or whatever. You know, worked already for X years, got your own property, started a family, most of your time being spent in that country, etc..
Edit : let me just clarify that I'm a kind of a guy that would do everything possible to preserve conditions that make non-hateful local traditions of every people possible, while deleting borders between the countries, and armies with them, and mandating everyone to embrace English, en_US layout and ASCII as their god.
I get your perspective and you're right. Things need to be in between. However keep in mind that if you work for a multinational, you're getting paid from the local office, or foreign office if the country in question has bilateral agreements with yours for sharing tax and other private finance info.
When you visited UK you paid VAT which is paid once by the customer, regardless of the nationality. If you aren't a national, e.g. there is enough proof that the item isn't going to be in a country, you're a Canadian and you're going home situation, you ask for a VAT refund. Unless two countries in question have special trade agreements.
Regardless of VAT, you weren't a resident with work permit in UK so you weren't servicing all the other taxes that come with employment, housing and everything else. What I'm arguing is the fact that these people pay the exact same amount into the treasury, and until they explicitly get their certificate of nationality - no vote.
There should be a line where you get automatically get declared "practically English", or whatever. You know, worked already for X years, got your own property, started a family, most of your time being spent in that country, etc..
Edit : let me just clarify that I'm a kind of a guy that would do everything possible to preserve conditions that make non-hateful local traditions of every people possible, while deleting borders between the countries, and armies with them, and mandating everyone to embrace English, en_US layout and ASCII as their god.
bearfan
Ancient Mariner
It is not just a matter of paying taxes, but of paying taxes as a permanent resident.
I think citizenship means something ... I had a job offer a few years back that would have had me in Hamburg for a year or so ... I would have paid taxes there, rent there, etc ... but it would not have made me a German citizen or given me a long term commitment to the country. I would have gone because it was a cool project and I would have liked to spend some time there.
But I knew I was leaving. I think there is something of a higher value being a citizen versus, I live here ... but I am not really making a full commitment while having a commitment to wherever you are a citizen. Not all that different than a fling versus a marriage.
GhostofCain
Ancient Mariner
Being in a country for one year does not make you a permanent resident.
GhostofCain
Ancient Mariner
Exactly.
You can become a permanent resident, but sadly that does not give you the right to vote.
On a related note, you become British, not English.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Because you still feel a connection with it.
Perhaps you meant: then why don't you live there as well? ;-)
There's always the double nationality option, although... always. Not in every country I guess.
edit: being a citizen of does not per se always mean that you also live there.
Magnus
Pica Serdica
No need to be rude about polls on this board you know
