Tiananmen Square, 20 years later

Thanks for the explanation. :)  That being said, I am not sure whether it is possible to restrict communism to only Marx's and Engels's and others' writings.  After all, Adam Smith's vision of a completely unrestricted market economy has never taken place (correct me if I'm wrong but that was his basic idea, right?), even in the USA, yet we still call it capitalism.  I'm not familiar enough with either of the terms to justify this to great extent, so I might be wrong here.  But, to put it bluntly, terminology's a bitch sometimes. ;)
 
oh true! For example, Smith spoke of the driving force behind Capitalism being ENLIGHTENED self-interest. In other words, it is in the boss' best interest to give his employees good wages so they can actually purchase the things they are making (we're talking industrial terms here, I know we mostly provide services now...), However the "enlightened" part was kinda sorta forgotten (to this day one might argue *cough* wal-mart *cough*) and Those owning the means of production became concerned with profit and the bottom line regardless of who got shafted. Enter Marx. I believe there is a bigger gap between communism's theory and reality than there is between Capitalism's.

There are PLENTY of good corporations out there though, Starbucks being one of them. They treat their employees well, give back to the community and have more than fair business policies and practices.
 
Henry Ford had a similar philosophy: pay your workers enough to afford your cars, so you will always have a market.
 
I won't get into communism killed people shit. Every system killed people, and the brutality of the particular system should be tied to it's executors (leadership) and it's implementation. IMHO, more people died as a consequence of capitalism (both economic and wars) and religion, than from communism and fascism together. Therefore, labeling brutality to a generalized system is wrong (not including fascism; theoretical system itself imposes rule how someone is better than someone else based on skin colour. religion, nationality, etc...).

The reason why it will not work in my opinion is that it takes away the willingness to do something. If all jobs are paid the same wage, there will be many people picking up the trash but no doctors. Why would you put effort in school if you can earn the same by doing nothing at school (picking up trash is very important work, but no education is needed). And doctors might have to work at odd hours as well.

That's a certain addition to theory that's well above 100 years old; back then, you had labour (poor) and management (rich).
Today, it's pretty different, you have a lot of segments between the richest and the poorest. The ideas of modern socialist/communist state are that the poorest should be the average. For instance, in my country, i am labeled as middle class regarding my education, job, payment, etc. However, i can hardly even lead an average life. I will be in deep financial shit if i go out today and get bank loan for a flat.

In a modern socialism, those who are "poor", are to be able to have clean and healthy roof above their head, basic means of transport, and means to cure and educate themselves and their children. Those above them will have a bigger flat on an attractive location, better car, holidays, luxuries, etc. But the poorest need to have an equal chance to lead a normal life and to get one step up.

And i'm not fond of the theory that says...if some people have it all, they won't be productive. On the contrary. If i had millions, i'd still work, and i would probably have same type of job and same type of hobby that i have today. Because i'm a normal person. Out there you have rich people who's job is to be rich. To go to "events", have media coverage, appear in luxury sport cars, etc. What i want to say is, if i lived in a system where one sweeping lady gets same amount of money as me per hour, i'd still be computer scientist, because i don't like sweeping. End of story.


Just to add something up. Today you have a world-wide system where people who work little get paid much. It's a middle man economy. It runs up from black market to highest segments of enterprises. Weed dealer who just transports couple of kgs to smaller dealers (who work with the customers) has tons more of profit divided by some unit of work. Those who grow weed need to grow it, those who sell it to customers need to bicker with packaging, selling etc.

The explanation for this is that managers have a lot of responsibility on their hands. Yeah right. Vast majority of today's companies are LLCs. Meaning, if you run out of business, your profits are still yours. It's another type of issue that managements buy their personal luxuries (cars, boats, flats) as registered property of company (to avoid certain taxes). If they run out of business, someone is going to take away that yacht. So there lies the responsibility...as a fear of losing property, not as a fear of getting your hard working employees into a shit situation.
 
Onhell said:
Nowhere do they say that doctors should make the same as gardners, that there shouldn't be any incentives, that people shouldn't own their own homes, etc. That is bullshit, baseless propaganda by paranoid ignorants.

I doubt that. My Polish father-in-law is a cardiologist since the mid eighties and his salary has been very low for many years. Since Poland is member of the EU his salary went up, but he still has to do nightshifts on an ambulance to have a decent living. I often wonder why he still works there. Well, I know why, he loves his country very much and most of his family is there (his oldest daughter went to me ;) ). But many of his collegues went to the west.

@Invader. The rude people I met were in a train station in Prague (someone taking care of the luggage lockers), and in Krakow. I remember a rude bus driver who didn't want to answer a question, I guess he thought he was only paid to drive. Several other cases, one of the most terrible ones were some people in the Krakow City administration. When it comes to documents, Poland is still a terribly bureaucratic business. And I did notice some bad manners in a restaurant indeed. But most of this shit happened some years ago, and I experience this kind of crap less often these days. I guess they start to like all these tourists. ;)

Ah! And if you have to choose you can better go to Krakow instead of Warsaw. Krakow was the capital of Poland. Some lazy Swedish King made Warsaw the capital, only because he didn't want too travel far. Well, as a matter of fact King Sigismund III Vasa felt need to move his administrative capital to what was then the tiny village of Warsaw, in order to be closer to an empire that threatened to break away at any moment.

Krakow has more old things, it wasn't levelled in WWII and it has a beautiful centre. There's more atmosphere and it's main market square is the largest (200 by 200 meter square) medieval town square in Europe.

450px-Krakow_rynek_01.jpg



Besides, it's closer to Prague. ;)

Also, it's close to Auschwitz and the Wieliczka Salt Mine, which had been until 2007 in continuous operation, producing table salt, since the 13th century (one of the world's oldest operating salt mines).

If you're not claustrofobic, go down there and do the tour.

Wieliczka-saltmine-kinga.jpg
 
Since I owe you this post, after the pain and pleasure of the previous two days:

Forostar said:
The provoking part surely worked... But I'm afraid I failed to see well enough that you played the devil's advocate, to a certain degree (at least: I didn't have a clue to which degree exactly). I know you've studied history, I know you know about the Red Terror. Perhaps that's even why I reacted like that. The relativizing, the theorizing, the philosophing, it provokes me. I find that it contrasts too much with what happened.

Loosey put it well here:

I think you're completely wrong on that account.  We're intelligent people here; we know that while some people may not have numerically committed as much murder as someone like Stalin, we aren't going to come out and say that they were entirely good people either.  Indeed, if murder is the worst thing someone can do, then isn't doing *more* of it worse?

Nobody is understating the bad done by bad people; simply saying that other people did more bad things doesn't do that.  Foro, sometimes I think you worry that unless we talk in a certain way, we are going to forget or marginalize history.  Perhaps if we were talking to a class of young children, that would be true, but we're smart here, and that means we sometimes play fast and loose with language, knowing others get what we mean.

Now my provoking (and failing) input: The word Hitler. What happened?

What was in your quotes happened - Godwin's law. Nobody wants to continue a discussion if somebody says "Hitler did that", "that's what Hitler said" or "Hitler too?"- It's a deadbeat argument that brands everybody who tries to maintain their viewpoint a Fascist. Incidentally, the most extreme case of Godwin's law I ever witnessed was somebody saying "Hitler said that proper Germans don't smoke".

That is not to say that Hitler comparisons are always wrong, but that you should really consider if it is called for or not. Usually, if Hitler comes out of nowhere, the discussion is killed. This time, it was saved by crash landing it on the "Communist" turf, but that does not always work.
 
Seldom do I reply to a more serious topic here. One of the reasons is that the quality of many posts is high and I do not want to spoil the standard.

Well I found another reason. Thanks Onhell for your nice reaction. It sure makes me feel like contributing again in the future. As example of how it can be done. on the first page of this topic SMX corrected me on the term shot (it should have been executed). No harsh words were used.

Back on communism.

I still think it would have slowed down progression. If there is no competition (the state owns means of production), there is no need to be efficient/imporvement. And for Zare, sorry to say but I think you would be one of the few to wok that hard. Let us say that your job would be counting. Would you really try to get 500 each day if your paybill is the same as the man/woman next to you. Even though they only reach 100?

Another problem is that if we all are responsible, nobody is responsible. Ever tried to get the person responsible for something in an govermental organisation?

Last problem for now is that the world has never seen communism. It was suposed to start from the working class instead it has been lead from above.
 
Warhurst said:
Last problem for now is that the world has never seen communism. It was suposed to start from the working class instead it has been lead from above.

That's not quite correct. Trotski's father was a farmer, Stalin's father was a shoemaker, Mao was a farmer and Lenin was a lawyer for Russian farmers for much of his early career. They may not have been the lowest of the low, but they were in steady contact with the needy, and they made pretty damn sure the revolution started from the working class.
Once it got to the top and the leaders of the revolution became leaders of their respective countries, they lost contact with the workers and farmers, and that's where it started to go wrong.

The only places where it did not start from the working classes were those which were occupied by a Communist country, like the Central and East European countries after the Second World War.
 
The early leaders might have roots within the working class. But as a genreal idea (at least that is what I think) the working would stir itself. That point was not yet reached. That is what I think went wrong for communism. If I am incorrect on it I agree with Perun. It sure get wrong when they lost contact with the working class.
 
Warhurst said:
The early leaders might have roots within the working class. But as a genreal idea (at least that is what I think) the working would stir itself.

Most of the Communist revolutions were stirred in the working classes. Those thinkers who initiated were not always part of it, but most revolutions were carried out by the masses. It was not like a coup d'état, where the military deposes the head of state and takes over the government. They were mass movements, of industry workers and soldiers like during the First World War, where millions of people got out on the street and took over the power. Revolutionary Russia, at the beginning, was an ochlocracy, a mob rule. Its figureheads only got the power in their hands because the people trusted them from the start, and they had promised them to lead them through the revolution to a bright, sunny tomorrow.

And here's the key point: Some of those leaders who promised them that bright, sunny tomorrow were actually intent on doing so. And I believe Lenin was one of them. He spent the better part of his life planning that revolution and writing it's theory. I also don't think he was corrupted by power- he had it for too short a time, and had to share it with too many people.Trotzki was also one of them. But Stalin wasn't. And he got the power. Like most revolutionaries, Lenin was however also a radical, and he believed that ruthless violence was one of the keys to succeed in his goals, and he believed that sometimes the people have to be forced to their luck. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

And to give a late answer: Hitler never had good intentions to begin with.

The Communist revolutions always failed for different reasons, so there is no key answer to what makes it fail. But one thing is for sure: They have always failed.
 
Zare said:
I won't get into communism killed people shit. Every system killed people, and the brutality of the particular system should be tied to it's executors (leadership) and it's implementation. IMHO, more people died as a consequence of capitalism (both economic and wars) and religion, than from communism and fascism together.

I think that you might be wrong numerically, though I would definitely agree that capitalism has done lots of damage.  But religion?  Absolutely.  Religion and capitalism don't go hand-in-hand though.  Imperialism probably has just as much blood on its hands as fascism or communism.  But to be very firm, those two brands of dictatorship have caused somewhere between 200 million and 250 million deaths in the last 100 years.
 
It's not easy to crunch right numbers, but it's not really important. You got my point there.
 
Capitalism has probably caused more harm to our future children than to us, I suppose, with environmental damage worked in, but yes, there's no one system that is innocent, and most are quite terrible.
 
Tiananmen spirit wanders again in China

07lede2-480.jpg

An elderly Uighar woman, leaning on a crutch, confronted riot police in Urumqi, China on Tuesday.

This time the oppressed minority of the Uighur raises its voice.
 
And here's why:

End of the Silk Road for historic trading hub of Kashgar (Times)

Today is the last day for residents of one of the last surviving ancient cities in China to claim a bonus for agreeing to move out to make way for the wrecking ball. After the offer expires, the only inducement may be force. Bulldozers are already crashing through the packed-mud walls of centuries-old homes. Yellow-helmeted workers toss bricks into wheelbarrows as they clear the rubble.

The demolition of swaths of the Old Town of Kashgar is being carried out in the name of modernisation and safety. The famed trading hub on the Silk Road, on which caravans carrying silk and jade from China crossed with merchants from Central Asia bringing furs and spices, will effectively disappear.
Walls throughout the town are stencilled with signs exhorting residents to support the makeover to prevent the damage wrought by last year’s massive earthquake in southwestern Sichuan province that killed 90,000 people. Many residents of the old quarter, members of the Muslim Uighur minority, are unconvinced.
One old man, his beard white, taps a mud-and-straw wall. “These houses have withstood earthquakes for 2,000 years. They have wood inside to absorb the shock.” He gestures to a renovated building next door. “People are supposed to use these hard bricks. But look at the cement. There are gaps and it’s poor quality. Maybe this would fall more quickly.”

(More in the link)


Kashgar is one of the most prominent towns along the ancient Silk Route, with particular importance for the entire Tarim basin because it controlled the trade routes that entered East Asia from the Tian Shan mountains. It had been a cultural, religious and economic centre of the region even long before the Uyghurs appeared on the boards of history, and has been a centre for Turkish-Islamic philosophy and science since. Its destruction is much more of an outrage for human culture and civilisation than the destruction of the Buddhas of Bamiyan by the Taleban was in 2001. Note that the article mentions how even Chinese authorities and scholars oppose this action. Apparently, Uyghur and Chinese people all around the world are protesting against this these days.

Kashgar is not part of the UNESCO World Heritage list because the PRC government generally does not support urban centres being admitted precisely for reasons like this.
 
OK, didn't know that.

But (as you might know) the deeper problem is that the Uyghur can't have their own culture, can't speak their own language and have the worst jobs. All the better jobs went to the import Han-people.

They are being treated as 2nd rate people.

More background: click
 
It's obviously only one of the many symptoms, but it is very typical of the PRC's treatment of the Uyghurs (and most other peoples).
 
Unfortunately:
Uyghurs are no peaceful buddhists, but muslims.
They have no Dalai Lama, no winner of the Peace-Nobel Prize.
They are no Tibettans, no Palestinians.
Xingjiang is not the Holy Land.
China is not the hated zionistic Israel.

So no massdemonstrations against China in the streets of Pakistan or Indonesia.
No burning of Chinese flags or puppets of president Hu Jintao.

Apart from Istanbul (the Uyghurs are a Turkish people) and the US (who issued a warning) the whole world is silent, the muslim "brother"-countries included.
 
Forostar said:
...the Uyghurs are a Turkish people...

Don't be confused; they are as Turkish as the Flemish are Dutch, or the Quebecois are French,
and -in fact- much less than that, since they've been separated for many many centuries

So the right word is Turkic and not Turkish.

Xingjiang is not the Holy Land.

In a way it is; Altai Mountains is the birth place of all Turkic people, and Xingjiang is the first (I believe) Turkic Empire ever
 
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