This is not democracy!

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There are three forms of government—the monarchical, the aristocratical, and the timocratical (rule of fear, that is). The first is apt to degenerate into a tyranny, the second into an oligarchy, and the third into a democracy.

"Genus rei publicae maxime probandum esse sentio, quod est ex his quae prima dixi moderatum et permixtum tribus."
I think the Republic combines the best of the three i metioned above, so they are moderated.
De Re Pubblica, chapter 45
 
Sorry to revive this, but it looks like little Slovakia is heading for pre-term elections this autumn as well. The liberal-conservative marriage between four parties that won the 2002 elections is about to split. The funny thing is, it's the two liberal parties, who seem to have irreconcilable differences.
 
Angie, Angie
When will those dark clouds all disappear
Angie, Angie
Where will it lead us from here
With no lovin' in our souls
And no money in our coats
You can't say we're satisfied
But Angie, Angie
You can't say we never tried

(Angie, you're beautiful)
But ain't it time we said goodbye
Angie, I still love you
Remember all those nights we cried
All the dreams we held so close
Seemed to all go up in smoke
But let me whisper in your ear
Angie, Angie
Where will it lead us from here

Oh, Angie don't you weep
(All your kisses still taste sweet)
I hate that sadness in your eyes
But Angie, Angie
Ain't it time we said goodbye

With no loving in our souls
And no money in our coats
You can't say we're satisfied
(But Angie, I still love you baby)
Everywhere I look I see your eyes
There ain't a woman that comes close to you
Come on baby, dry your eyes

Angie, Angie
Ain't it good to be alive
Angie, Angie
You can't say we never tried
 
So wtf is actually going on there now, Per?

From what we've been told on this side of the pond, the CDU ended up slightly ahead of the SPD, but not far enough to form a government. What's the procedure here for deciding?
Are they going to say "hell with it" and have new elections? (kinda impractical, I think) Or is there going to be alot of backroom dealing to try and form a new coalition?

What if the CDU could persuade the Greens to join their side? Would they have enough for a government then?
 
Nobody actually has an idea of what's going to happen now. None of the parties got enough votes for a two-party coalition, save a Grand Coalition (CDU and SPD). However, both sides wanted clear goals: One side wanted a CDU/FDP one, the other an SPD/Green one. Taking into consideration that none of the parties (not even the smaller ones) want a coalition with the Leftists, these are possible governments:

CDU/SPD (aka Grand Coalition)
SPD/FDP/Green (aka Traffic Light Coalition)
CDU/FDP/Green (aka Jamaica Coalition).

The FDP has stated they would not allign themselves with the SPD, and a part of the conservative union, the CSU, who would be essential for the CDU to govern, has said they will not govern together with the SPD (to make things simple, the CSU is the Bavarian version of the CDU).

What will happen?
I don't know.

The only thing I know is:
This stinks like Weimar.
 
[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]The only thing I know is:
This stinks like Weimar.[/quote]
Don't worry, Bundespräsident Köhler has a plan to take on the role of Chancellor in addition to his current duties....

In alls eriousness, though:

So we have the CSU and FDP saying they will NOT be part of a coalition with the SPD. The CDU and SPD are an unlikely combination, though anything is possible.

From what you say, the balance of power is going to fall to the Greens. If they remain with the SPD, the deadlock will continue. If they go over to the CDU/FDP, that new coalition will be able to form a government.

However, is it ethical for the Greens to do that? They ran under a platform of co-operation with the SPD, didn't they? By supporting the CDU, they would be violating the trust of the people who voted for them.

This, I think, is the problem with most non-Westminster forms of parliamentary democracy (namely proportional representation). Because people voted for the party as well as the man (or woman), the representatives must remain true to the party under which they were elected. Had this happened in the UK or Canada, a few MPs would be convinced to cross the floor to allow one party/coalition to have a majority.
No single party even needs a majority to form the gov't either. The Queen (or Governor-General) calls upon the leader of the party with the most seats and asks them for form the gov't. If that party can't govern with the confidence of a majority of parliament, the head of state can either call for a general election or ask the leader of the next largest party to have a go at it.

My solution for the fatherland? Make Joschka Fischer the new Kaiser.

(BTW - my 666th post!!!!!! I'm not going to post anymore!)
 
Before I do a serious reply, I will congratulate you, Duke:

Woe to you, oh Earth and Sea,
for the Devil sends the Duke with wrath,
because he knows the time is short...
Let him who hath understanding reckon the number of the beast
for it is a human number, its number is Six hundred and sixty six.

I left alone, my mind was blank
I needed time to think, to get the memories from my mind
What did I see? Can I believe
That what I saw that night was real and not just fantasy

Just what I saw in my old dreams
Were they reflections of my warped mind staring back at me
'Cause in my dreams it's always there
The evil face that twists my mind and brings me to despair

Night was black, was no use holding back
'Cause I just had to see was someone watching me
In the mist dark figures move and twist
Was this all for real or just some kind of hell?

Six six six – the Number of the Duke
Hell and fire was spawned to be err... nuked

Torches blazed and sacred chants were praised
As they start to cry hands held to the sky
In the night the fires burning bright
The ritual has begun Satan's work is done

Six six six – the Number of the Duke
Sacrifice is going on tonight

This can't go on I must inform the law
Can this still be real or some crazy dream?
But I feel drawn toward the evil chanting hordes
Seem to mesmerize me, can't avoid their eyes

Six six six – the Number of the Duke
Six six six – the one for you and me

I'm coming back, I will return
And I'll possess your body and I'll make Nova Scotia fuckin' burn!
I have the fire, I have the force
I have the power to make my evil take its course

[!--emo&:chug:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/beerchug.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'beerchug.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin-IronDuke+Sep 19 2005, 09:15 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(IronDuke @ Sep 19 2005, 09:15 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Don't worry, Bundespräsident Köhler has a plan to take on the role of Chancellor in addition to his current duties....
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Yeah.
Right.
Ayatol.... err... Bundeskanzler Köhler.

[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]In alls eriousness, though:[/quote]

Eeriousness would fit it better.

[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]From what you say, the balance of power is going to fall to the Greens. If they remain with the SPD, the deadlock will continue. If they go over to the CDU/FDP, that new coalition will be able to form a government.

However, is it ethical for the Greens to do that? They ran under a platform of co-operation with the SPD, didn't they? By supporting the CDU, they would be violating the trust of the people who voted for them.[/quote]

The Greens have said they'd rather stick with the SPD, the only problem is that the FDP won't go there. So, now what?
One basic problem is:
The SPD wants to keep Chancellor Schröder.
The CDU wants Chancellor Merkel.

The only sollution I know is, have a third person.

This would have two benefits:
Both Schröder and Merkel aren't very popular, so a new (good) character may restore the people's faith in the government and perhaps delay the end of democracy in Germany.

The second is, that the people will know they are not voting the chancellor- they are voting for the parties.

The negative aspect is that the people may feel cheated, because the "Chancellor Candidates" were the faces they expected to see in the Reichstag.

[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]My solution for the fatherland? Make Joschka Fischer the new Kaiser.[/quote]
Your word in [span style=\'color:purple\']The Platypus'[/span] ear...

[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--](BTW - my 666th post!!!!!! I'm not going to post anymore!)[/quote]

Edited by SMX to fix jacked BBCode.
 
People, don't worry. Democracy is worthless. We've always had elections in my country (some of them have been free) and we are tired of it (well at least most of my countrymen, I still vote)

The expirience with democracy over here in Latin America (the real América, by the way) is confusing. Most people dont even care about it or doesn't want it any more.

My reflection about it is that Democracy is a very good idea, but the people must be prepared to make democracy work. No country in the world is truly prepared for democracy (Well, I believe probably Cuba has the education level to embrace democracy, but that won't happen).

PS. I really disagree with Duke on many things, I even felt insulted. Are you really canadian? you sound like a gringo. Most canadians I know dont think like that. Well, no hard feelings Duke, its just a question.

Oh, and there is nothing wrong on been a "commie" [!--emo&:P--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Killer+Oct 18 2005, 08:57 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Killer @ Oct 18 2005, 08:57 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]People, don't worry. Democracy is worthless. We've always had elections in my country (some of them have been free) and we are tired of it (well at least most of my countrymen, I still vote)

The expirience with democracy over here in Latin America (the real América, by the way) is confusing. Most people dont even care about it or doesn't want it any more.

My reflection about it is that Democracy is a very good idea, but the people must be prepared to make democracy work. No country in the world is truly prepared for democracy (Well, I believe probably Cuba has the education level to embrace democracy, but that won't happen).

PS. I really disagree with Duke on many things, I even felt insulted. Are you really canadian? you sound like a gringo. Most canadians I know dont think like that. Well, no hard feelings Duke, its just a question.

Oh, and there is nothing wrong on been a "commie"  [!--emo&:P--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
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What parts do you disagree with? Sorry if opinions insult you.
 
The Duke is really Canadian. I know - I went to junior high and high school with him.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-IronDuke+Oct 18 2005, 08:16 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(IronDuke @ Oct 18 2005, 08:16 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]What parts do you disagree with? Sorry if opinions insult you.
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well, don't worry about it [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
I was not insulted, I'd rather had written that some of your opinions might be a little rough. (does it make sense???)
 
Ok I just HAVE TO step in before everybody thinks Mexicans hate democracy and are nothing but neo-cons. First off, who the hell said Latin America is the "real" America? Last time I checked "America" or "Americas" included ALL countries from Canada to Argentina... That supid people use "America" to refer soley to the U.S OF A doesn't mean it isn't part of or the only "real" part of "America".

Latin America's experiance with democracy hasn't been the greatests but it is not democracy's or the people's fault. I don't know about you but again, last time I checked we (latin america) were colonized by Spain and Portugal whom just happened to be the weakest European "powers" economically and technologically speaking, when you are colonized by a weak mother country you become, by default, a weak colony and eventually a weak independant country. It is no coincidence that Australia, which began as prison is now in better standing than Brazil. Neocolonialism and later economic intervention by core (first world) nations is what has kept Mexico and the rest of latin american in two categories, dependant developed nations (Mexico, Brazil, Argentina) and underdeveloped dependant nations ( the rest specifically Peru, Guatemala, El Salvador etc. excluding Cuba of course). What does this mean? That even though Mexico is (believe it or not) a developed nation its economic dependancy on the U.S and other core nations is what is creating MOST of the political and economic havoc in the country.
There is NOTHING wrong with democracy or capitalism. I know this may come as a suprise coming from the guy that had the USSR flag as an avatar for a while and now has Pancho Villa, but, if being in the U.S has taught me anything it is exactly that. Democracy may have it's faults but it isn't useless, Capitalism isn't evil,ambition, making a profit isn't evil. UNCHECKED capitalism IS evil, greed is evil because it leads to EXPLOITATION which again is evil. Now if you don't like the religious conotation of "evil" replace it with "really, really, really, bad". ugh, I have to get to class so I might return to this and finish it for it to make sense but no promises.
 
Onhell:

I never thought this would happen, but in this one I'll have to fight you.
Of course democracy is worthless, at least while the population remains idiotic (just like... today, everywhere!)

And yes I said latinamerica is the real america because I hate how gringos and some other people call the US, america when it is just a small part of a much greater continent.

Oh, and capitalism is BS. have you heard of the dependency teoriests? if you have, you can see that for developing countries, like mine (and... yours?) really get trashed up by multinational enterprises. The worst evil of this is that the burgeous class of this countries (because of their need for profit at any cost) become allies of the enemy and exploit their own just to make the enemy richer and richer. god damn them! Of course there is no "god", but is a way of speech.

Now, you tell me when and where, so I can kick your arse!!! [!--emo&:lol:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/lol[1].gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'lol[1].gif\' /][!--endemo--] [!--emo&:lol:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/lol[1].gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'lol[1].gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Killer+Oct 25 2005, 08:11 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Killer @ Oct 25 2005, 08:11 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Onhell:

I never thought this would happen, but in this one I'll have to fight you.
Of course democracy is worthless, at least while the population remains idiotic (just like... today, everywhere!) 
[/quote]
The population in the U.S is just as dumb as in any country as you pointed out, so "democracy" is not the source of a countries status "rich" or "poor". I do agree people need to be educated, but that will only reveal that there is no real democracy to begin with (democracy is not possible, at least not any more given the size of populations, REPUBLICAN democracy is) instead it is one big transnational poliarchy which is ran by the corporate elite... that's my story i'm sticking to it.
[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]And yes I said latinamerica is the real america because I hate how gringos and some other people call the US, america when it is just a small part of a much greater continent.
[/quote]
And that is why I said Latin America is NOT the real "america" either, "America" is from Canada to Argentina, NOT just the U.S and NOT just from Mexico and further south.
[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Oh, and capitalism is BS. have you heard of the dependency teoriests? if you have, you can see that for developing countries, like mine (and... yours?) really get trashed up by multinational enterprises. The worst evil of this is that the burgeous class of this countries (because of their need for profit at any cost) become allies of the enemy and exploit their own just to make the enemy richer and richer. god damn them! Of course there is no "god", but is a way of speech.
[/quote]
Dependancy is not a result of Capitalism, it is a result of greed (which could be argued is easily triggered by capitalism). the rest of this explanation can be found in my previous post about colonization and core nations.
[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Now, you tell me when and where, so I can kick your arse!!!  [!--emo&:lol:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/lol[1].gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'lol[1].gif\' /][!--endemo--]  [!--emo&:lol:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/lol[1].gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'lol[1].gif\' /][!--endemo--]
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sorry I'm a pacifist [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
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