The Pope is dope

Whoa there.

Forostar, I never said "Catholics" are evil. I said their Church is. Wilders thinks all Muslims are evil. He also thinks Islam is a singular organization, which it isn't. If you really, really think that I am shouting like an idiot like Wilders, then fine. But I'll happily support my statement - that the Catholic Church causes more deaths in the world today than any other force - with fact.

The number one fact? The Catholic Church fights against the use of condoms in AIDS cases. How many millions have died in Africa and will die in Africa because of this? Hint: many.
 
Loosey, I apologize for the Wilders comparison. I shouldn't have said it. And I do not wish to Godwin this discussion.
LooseCannon said:
Whoa there.

Forostar, I never said "Catholics" are evil. I said their Church is. Wilders thinks all Muslims are evil. He also thinks Islam is a singular organization, which it isn't. If you really, really think that I am shouting like an idiot like Wilders, then fine.
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I didn't say that you said that Catholics are evil.

Wilders says the ideology of Islam is evil and he only speaks about the bad side of Islam (and uses examples of fundamentalists). Naturally he offends all Muslims with that statement and behaviour. When you aim at the Church it depends on what you're including. If you mean the top, the Vatican, the Curia, the conservative people (which are admittedly: many) and a certain set of rules, then I agree with you to a certain extent that some people are evil, or at least they are ignorant of the "evil" consequences of their ideas/rules.
LooseCannon said:
But I'll happily support my statement - that the Catholic Church causes more deaths in the world today than any other force - with fact. The number one fact? The Catholic Church fights against the use of condoms in AIDS cases. How many millions have died in Africa and will die in Africa because of this? Hint: many.
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I hope for changes in this direction, sooner than later. Actually, if there ever was a Pope who should deal with this, it should be this one.
 

Don't take this as a shot at you LC — you make your distinction clearly in your follow-up post — but I do think there is a large segment out there that gets (rightfully) offended when people take blanket aim at Islam, but do not feel the same outrage when similar shots are taken at Christianity.

The church still promulgates all kinds of backwards, repressive and destructive behaviour.
It is also populated by many well-meaning individuals who attempt to follow the many positive teachings espoused in the New Testament.

Like Foro, I was raised in a tolerant catholic household. I rejected the church for many reasons, but the pertinent one in this discussion is the failure of its leadership to fully embrace what should be Christ's core message of love and acceptance; instead, they entrench themselves in dogma on human rights issues like women's rights and gay marriage and persist in telling people one size fits all in a multi-faceted world.

Churches are built in such a way that walls between believers and non-believers are inevitable. That is their fatal flaw, and why I don't feel much hope they can ever be saved.

But the church is a lot of things to a lot of people and not all of that is negative. And it is not a bad thing that Foro sees an opportunity here for slow, positive change from the inside.

It's not impossible. And God knows it's needed.
 
mckindog said:
But the church is a lot of things to a lot of people and not all of that is negative. And it is not a bad thing that Foro sees an opportunity here for slow, positive change from the inside.
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The point that mckindog makes here is the only way you can make a case for the Catholic Church persisting in some form, from a logically and morally sound point of view. It has inspired some good people to do good things. I have many Catholic friends who are believers and care about the Church and want it to be progressive and work towards it in their own little ways (basically I have a bunch of liberation theologist friends). But the way I see it, not only has the Catholic Church inspired many more good people to do bad things than it has good people to do good things, but the people doing good things are basically trying to fix what the Church broke in the first place.

When I said I wanted to see the Church burn, I did not mean that in a literal sense such as actual Church burnings that happen in Norway. I would have thought that was obviously a metaphor. So, let me state it in literal terms: I think the world would be a better place, the human race would be served better in total, without the Church. It would also be better off without ANY religions. This is not the same as taking away spirituality. I mean organized religions. The world would probably also be better off without capitalism (by its very definition unsustainable anyway) and nationalism. All of these things are probably not going to happen in my lifetime. But I will still fight and support those who fight against these things.

Foro, you once assumed that I was an atheist. And I said I wasn't. I'm an anti-theist. I think we waste a lot of time and effort debating the existence or not of a force or god or whatever that, at the end of the day, in very real terms, has no tangible effect on our lives. Instead of worrying about who has the better imaginary friend, we should worry about the important things in life that we can actually influence. Such as child hunger. Such as war. Such as climate change. Such as the lack of drinking water. Such as AIDS. The pope has the power to do some good in all these area's. I hope he does. But I still won't like/approve of the existence of the organization he stands for.
 
Anything that divides people into a distinct group apart — a tribe, a country, a race, a religion, a political party, an ideology —then makes decisions based on the superiority or inferiority of that group is already two steps down the road to ruin.

We fool ourselves at times we do these things for the right reasons, but I am not aware of any example in history where that was actually the case.
 
Yep. Political doctrine, scientific belief and nationalism can all nurture their own fanatics and be used as an excuse for atrocities.
 
mckindog said:
Don't take this as a shot at you LC — you make your distinction clearly in your follow-up post — but I do think there is a large segment out there that gets (rightfully) offended when people take blanket aim at Islam, but do not feel the same outrage when similar shots are taken at Christianity.

The church still promulgates all kinds of backwards, repressive and destructive behaviour.
It is also populated by many well-meaning individuals who attempt to follow the many positive teachings espoused in the New Testament.
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I specifically said, in my original statement, that I was discussing the Catholic Church. While churches require their congregants to work, they do not require them for doctrine. I'd love to see a Catholic Church that changes to allow homosexuality, married priests, is cool with contraception and abortion. But I can't see that happening, not under this pope, or any other. What I see here is a minor step forward.

Catholics, in general, are good people. Statistically, most Catholics disagree with at least one of the major social deficiencies that has existed within the Catholic Church, be it birth control, abortion, or homosexuality. Very, very, very few Catholics have even tried to defend the Church regarding the sex scandals that have existed. I have no problem with Catholics - I have a problem with the Church.

Let me be as blunt as I can: the Catholic Church is a wealthy, theocratic organization run entirely by men. Old white men, most of 'em. They have existed as an intra-state organization for around 1700 years, and during those 1700 years, they spent about 1400 of them as the majority faith in Europe. When you consider the ability of the European continent to express power during those periods, it made the Catholic Church more powerful than any nation. This ability was used for repression, to justify slavery, and to sanctify the mass conversion and murder of natives and Africans. The scandals we see today, and they are not just child sex scandals, but many, many, many scandals, are a direct result of the Church continuing to act as if their actions have no repercussions. It's an organization of little tin gods held up by their belief that merely by sharing their transgressions against humanity with another little puppet they are absolved of all blame and crime. An organization with 1.2 billion adherents, mostly uneducated but very generous in their poverty, with billions of dollars at their disposal.

Consider that whenever they are forced to moderate a position in the developed world, they respond by tightening their prose in the undeveloped world, ensuring that they will maintain a power base among the parts of the world that don't understand family planning and don't have a well-funded police arm to make sure they are safe from the people who are supposed to be trustworthy. That hasn't stopped the Church, however, from fighting to keep power where they can. It hasn't stopped them from falsely claiming they're being forced to give out birth control at hospitals they control, and it hasn't stopped them from letting women die rather than perform a life-saving abortion on a fetus that is already doomed. It hasn't stopped them from funding campaigns to teach abstinence-only sexual education, the sort of education that leads to teen pregnancy and the spread of STIs, especially HIV. It hasn't stopped them from trying to battle the surge towards gay marriage in both the USA and the developing world - consider the new Pope is from the only country in Latin America that has legalized gay marriage, a fact I am quite sure is not coincidental.

This is before we discuss the sex scandals. The widespread abuse of boys, girls, and women in underprivileged situations. The refusal of the Catholic Church to insist their priests be arrested, the constant behaviour repeated over dozens of accused dioceses in Canada, the USA, and Europe - the priests accused of assaulting children are not defrocked or punished; they are moved to another area where their predatory actions can occur again, without the decency of even a warning, to a new flock of helpless sheep. The innocence of thousands (yes, thousands) of young boys and girls were sacrificed to sexual predators so the Catholic Church can save face. Even under Francis the Church has refused to acknowledge that the sexual abuse of children is systemic within the Catholic Church. He has not withdrawn the requests for diplomatic asylum for imprisoned and accused priests that have been attempted in order to get priests out of countries where they're currently being locked up for raping kids.

Child sex abuse scandals. Dead pregnant women. Oppressed gays. The Magdalene laundries. Denying the life-saving use of condoms in countries with a high rate of HIV. Threatening excommunication with any priest who reports a criminal within the ranks.

And this is the shit we know about in modern developed countries with low-corruption police systems and a powerful media arm that loves investigative journalism. Imagine what it's like in places without that.

So yes, fuck the goddamn Catholic Church. Catholics generally don't agree with the stuff I've written above, and most of 'em are good people. But if you really want to be a good person...stop giving money to the Church, because that's the only thing that'll ever make them understand how corrupt and evil they are.
 
Touring Chaminade and Notre Dame schools for my kids next month, as LA public schools are a disaster after about the fifth or sixth grade. Unless I want to pay $30K/year to send my kids to a secular private school, parochial school is our best option for an excellent education. So, pay no attention that Loose Cannon behind the curtain, support the Catholic church and subsidize my kids' education!
 
Pay more attention to me, for I believe private schools shouldn't be allowed. But hey.
 
Don't forget, I'm a socialist. I'm cool with the schools, but they shouldn't be funded privately...and you shouldn't have to pay for a university education. But that's a whole other story.
 
Natalie said:
The point that mckindog makes here is the only way you can make a case for the Catholic Church persisting in some form, from a logically and morally sound point of view. It has inspired some good people to do good things. I have many Catholic friends who are believers and care about the Church and want it to be progressive and work towards it in their own little ways (basically I have a bunch of liberation theologist friends). But the way I see it, not only has the Catholic Church inspired many more good people to do bad things than it has good people to do good things, but the people doing good things are basically trying to fix what the Church broke in the first place.

When I said I wanted to see the Church burn, I did not mean that in a literal sense such as actual Church burnings that happen in Norway. I would have thought that was obviously a metaphor. So, let me state it in literal terms: I think the world would be a better place, the human race would be served better in total, without the Church. It would also be better off without ANY religions. This is not the same as taking away spirituality. I mean organized religions. The world would probably also be better off without capitalism (by its very definition unsustainable anyway) and nationalism. All of these things are probably not going to happen in my lifetime. But I will still fight and support those who fight against these things.

Foro, you once assumed that I was an atheist. And I said I wasn't. I'm an anti-theist. I think we waste a lot of time and effort debating the existence or not of a force or god or whatever that, at the end of the day, in very real terms, has no tangible effect on our lives. Instead of worrying about who has the better imaginary friend, we should worry about the important things in life that we can actually influence. Such as child hunger. Such as war. Such as climate change. Such as the lack of drinking water. Such as AIDS. The pope has the power to do some good in all these area's. I hope he does. But I still won't like/approve of the existence of the organization he stands for.
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Read and understood Natalie. Not per se agreed 100%, but 100% understood.

Where I feel different about this is when I say I have known support from the church. When my daughter died there was a quickly organized service in my parents home. It was personal and gave the tiny bit of extra comfort I needed on that difficult day. I am not saying that everyone should need that kind of comfort, nor am I saying that no one else can give comfort (actually, I got lots of support by others), but at that moment it was nice for me to have someone amongst us who felt the right atmosphere and knew some good things to say. Individual support might not seem as much compared to child hunger and climate change but imo the role of the church should not be underestimated in this field.

I could mention more good things about the Catholic Church and also negative things about other churches and religions (to put all this in better perspective), but right now I also would like to see what this man in white will (not) do.

This is not dope, Pope:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/15/pope-criticises-us-nuns-group
 
Wow... Don't even know where to begin. So much shit, a lot of it incredibly ignorant and misplaced has been thrown so far I'll focus on the good.

The benefit to having a Pope who when he says, "jump," we ask, "How high?": During the colonization of the New Spain, it was the Pope, not the crown, who said the natives were people and to enslave them was wrong on every level. The church was the sole protector and educator of the native people. How effective were they? Mexico has had not one, but TWO "indian" presidents, Porfirio Diaz and Benito Juarez, both from the state of Oaxaca and both educated by Jesuits, way back in the 1800's, well before the U.S finally voted for a minority president.

Back in the 60s during desegregation, Catholic institutions integrated much quicker than protestant and lay institution due to papal edict. He basically said, "do it" and it was done... no debate to it. Having one boss can and has been a good thing.

Not to mention the hospitals, schools, shelters, charities so on and so forth. Yes we have a sketchy history, but who doesn't? I absolutely LOVE what the church is today, compared to the abomination of the middle ages. The last three popes (yes even Bennedict had his good points and John Paul II had his weaknesses) have been great for the church. Making amends, reaching out to not just other christian denominations, but other faiths in general.

I'm putting the following article, by a Jew, in spoilers so it doesn't make the post longer, but I encourage you to read it. It is sad it doesn't include footnotes or cites sources, but I still found it a refreshing read from all the shit we get already.
A Jewish View on Catholics

Life isn't tied with a bow, but it's still a gift.

Jewish Sam Miller on Catholics

Excerpts of an article written by non-Catholic Sam Miller- - a prominent Cleveland Jewish businessman:

"Why would newspapers carry on a vendetta on one of the most important institutions that we have today in the United States, namely the Catholic Church?

Do you know the Catholic Church educates 2.6 million students everyday at the cost to that Church of 10 billion dollars, and a savings on the other hand to the American taxpayer of 18 billion dollars. The graduates go on to graduate studies at the rate of 92%.

The Church has 230 colleges and universities in the U.S. with an enrollment of 700,000 students.

The Catholic Church has a non-profit hospital system of 637 hospitals, which account for hospital treatment of 1 out of every 5 people - not just Catholics - in the United States today

But the press is vindictive and trying to totally denigrate in every way the Catholic Church in this country. They have blamed the disease of pedophilia on the Catholic Church, which is as irresponsible as blaming adultery on the institution of marriage.

Let me give you some figures that Catholics should know and remember. For example, 12% of the 300 Protestant clergy surveyed admitted to sexual intercourse with a parishioner; 38% acknowledged other inappropriate sexual contact in a study by the United Methodist Church, 41.8% of clergy women reported unwanted sexual behavior; 17% of laywomen have been sexually harassed.

Meanwhile, 1.7% of the Catholic clergy has been found guilty of pedophilia. 10% of the Protestant ministers have been found guilty of pedophilia. This is not just a Catholic problem.

A study of American priests showed that most are happy in the priesthood and find it even better than they had expected, and that most, if given the choice, would choose to be priests again in face of all this obnoxious PR the church has been receiving.

The Catholic Church is bleeding from self-inflicted wounds. The agony that Catholics have felt and suffered is not necessarily the fault of the Church. You have been hurt by a small number of wayward priests that have probably been totally weeded out by now.

Walk with your shoulders high and your head higher. Be a proud member of the most important non-governmental agency in the United States .

Then remember what Jeremiah said: 'Stand by the roads, and look and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way is and walk in it, and find rest for your souls'. Be proud to speak up for your faith with pride and reverence and learn what your Church does for all other religions.

"Be proud that you're a Catholic."
 
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