The Pope is dope

It's not that I dislike the man. I disliked Benedict. This guy I view as much more dangerous because he's a good PR man. But essentially that's all he is, a PR man, and fundamentally nothing has changed with the institution. If he actually made the changes he talks about so much it would maybe be a different story. Yes it's unfortunate that the church is gaining in popularity, but what's even more unfortunate is that it's all a mirage.
 
Forostar, one good man does not make a good church. The criticism (here & elsewhere) is clearly aimed, in the main, at the church, not the pope personally.
And agonized they couldn't stand how this man made the image of the church so much better than previous popes.
The image of the church really isn't the problem here.
 
When I saw that picture, I thought it precisely spelled out what I have been thinking. I'm ready to delete it though, if it offends you.
 
Natalie, do you really see him as a PR man only? Are you following what he's doing? I wish he was going faster but here's something at least:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25102720
Pope Francis has called for power in the Catholic Church to be devolved away from the Vatican, in the first major work he has written in the role.
In the document, he says he is open to suggestions to changes in the power of the papacy.
 
Well, so what if it is atheist propaganda, anyway. The Catholics have their own propaganda, I'd say it's about time someone tries to spin the other side. I don't mind Francis - I think he's trying to do what he thinks is good work, and I'll travel the road with him where it moves in my direction. That doesn't make me think the Catholic church - or any church - is a good, healthy institution. I find myself wondering what will occur when the next Pope is elected.

The fact of the matter is that under Francis, gays are still rejected from their right to get married, abortions are verboten and women can't become priests. He's agreed that Catholics should wink and allow people to use condoms only when AIDS is a problem, otherwise, you have no right to control your own reproduction. And that's in the western world - in the developing world the Church remains the firebrands they were hundreds of years ago.

No thanks. What's that thing someone said...even if you put fresh lipstick on a pig...it's still a pig. Francis is a much better PR man than Benedict, absolutely. He may even be a good man. But he leads the oldest, most corrupt institution in our world, a multi-trillion dollar organization that has a vaulted history of sexual abuse, murder, hypocrisy, exploitation, torture, political intrigue, and falsehood. I could care less if someone believes in the Bible, I really could - what bothers me is this corporation that abuses the faithful in every way possible but still somehow gets 'em back for more money, more innocence, and more blood.
 
Genuine curiousity here: how many of you live in a community where religion, Christian or otherwise, has genuine power?
I'm not talking about on a national level, or through political lobbies, or histories, or coffeehouse debates about something you read in the news; I expect this is true everywhere.
I am talking about genuine power and influence in your day-to-day lives in your own backyard, the type that can make you change your behaviour, either through forcing you to expression, or repression, or perhaps even indoctrination.
 
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Sometimes people are not aware of the influences. Can't help thinking about some American communities where religion plays a strong role. Everything can be so "normal". This question should be asked to gay people or other minorities who are treated unequally (or unjustly), who live in such areas. Most others would say they are not influenced.
 
Sometimes people are not aware of the influences. Can't help thinking about some American communities where religion plays a strong role. Everything can be so "normal". This question should be asked to gay people or other minorities who are treated unequally, who live in such areas. Most others would say they are not influenced.

I admit it is a grey area, but I am talking about overt behaviour, directly because of religion, that hits close to home. And am asking to speak to direct observations, as opposed to logical conclusions. I expect Flash, for example, may say yes because of what I read about his country, but I want to hear firsthand. Mega hasn't posted in ages, but as an Israeli soldier, I'm sure he would have something to say.
 
O man, Mega. It's hard to remember a more indoctrinated forum member. If he would observe the matters (even if it were one aspect only) you're asking, that would be a win.
 
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The influence of religion here is very weak. Churches are tolerated, if thought of as a bit odd, by the average resident who generally tends to be areligious, if you will pardon what is probably a made-up word. Not a lot of proselytizing occurs.
Unless events put you in an obviously religious setting, you can go for a long time without becoming aware an acquaintance has any religion at all. Public displays of religion are usually limited to church picnics and charity drives.
I'd characterize Christians as a relatively secure minority, in that church was something your grandmother, or friends grandmother did.
 
The biggest effect of religion here on most people's daily lives are stupid alcohol rules and you cannot buy a car on Sundays ... thankfully every time that comes up for a vote, more booze wins :)
 
Genuine curiousity here: how many of you live in a community where religion, Christian or otherwise, has genuine power?
I'm not talking about on a national level, or through political lobbies, or histories, or coffeehouse debates about something you read in the news; I expect this is true everywhere.
I am talking about genuine power and influence in your day-to-day lives in your own backyard, the type that can make you change your behaviour, either through forcing you to expression, or repression, or perhaps even indoctrination.

This is easier than I thought. I travel between the U.S and Mexico, in both countries religion holds A LOT of power. The debate over abortion, death penalty and gay marriage are always hot topics precisely because of religion. In Mexico, whether in an affluent community or the ghetto, the parish priest still holds a position of influence whether he is respected or not. I recommend watching The Crime of Father Amaro (El Crimen del Padre Amaro), to get an idea of the different types of priests and the hold they have over their communities.
 
I admit it is a grey area, but I am talking about overt behaviour, directly because of religion, that hits close to home. And am asking to speak to direct observations, as opposed to logical conclusions. I expect Flash, for example, may say yes because of what I read about his country, but I want to hear firsthand. Mega hasn't posted in ages, but as an Israeli soldier, I'm sure he would have something to say.

Glad I came across your mention of my name by incident.

Man o man, the influence of religion in Turkey is huge. I basically cannot say that I'm an atheist in public without being worried about saving my ass. Majority of the people would take any different opinion in regards to religion insulting. There are many people who would basically kill atheists in the name of god. And these people are not considered extremists in the majority of the country. If killing was a justifiable act and was not punished, I'm pretty sure these people would attack and kill atheists on any chance given to them.

In cities like Konya, Sivas, Yozgat, Kayseri it'd basically be a suicidal act to say you're an atheist in public. They'd probably lynch you if if was heard by a group of people. Hell, girls can't wear shorts in those places because religious people of the town insist they get headscarfs and don't expose much skin.

The government party has based all of their strategies on using the religion as a weapon of dictation. There are so many ignorant people in this country (most of them are living in the inner parts of the country and the eastern side) and for most of them, religion is the most important thing in their lives. So many absurd rules, laws are justified by religion. I sometimes talk about them in the 100k posts thread, don't know if you've come across them.

As a sidenote, here's a map showing the results of the 2011 general election in Turkey. The places in yellow were won by the government party AKP, red places were won by the main opposition, leftist social democratic party CHP, green place was won by nationalist MHP and the blue places were won by Kurdish nationalists.

Genel_Secim_Sonucu_2011.jpg
 
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Genuine curiousity here: how many of you live in a community where religion, Christian or otherwise, has genuine power?

I do. Antigonish has an extremely powerful local Church. This Church, of course, has been rocked by scandals of late (our Bishop was arrested in Ottawa for child porn, for example), but that hasn't diminished the hold it has over daily life. It's a very conservative town with a very liberal university in the middle. Constant struggles.
 
That very liberal university. I suppose that is the Roman Catholic university.

This extremely powerful Church, holding over daily life, which of the five churches is that?
Roman Catholic, St Ninians, United, Anglican or Baptist?

In my eyes it would be logical that the last 4 churches I mentioned have bigger trouble with liberal education, and have harder doctrine in their churches.

The Catholic church and universities in my country are less dominant over daily life than (educational institutes of) other churches. But that's where I am coming from. But I know how strong the Catholic church in Poland is (sickmaking at times). So I am curious how that is in your corner of the world, Loosey.

Would you give examples of these struggles? Are people also protesting against the university or the way students live?
 
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StFX might be named after a Catholic saint, but it is a public institution. There are still some members of it's former Catholic past that are alive and the university houses and feeds daily, but there are no members of the Roman Catholic clergy on staff, except for one particular priest who is hired by the Students' Union. It's a secular school, with an extremely liberal membership, in professors, students, and directors. There's a few vestiges of Catholicism left that the students barely tolerate and certainly pay no attention to. Since I am familiar with the town and an alumnus of the school, I can say this with some assurances.

I guess just googling a town doesn't really teach you anything about it. St. Ninian's is the Roman Catholic Church in Antigonish, Foro. It is a very large cathedral for a small Canadian town, and it has more attendance than any other place of worship in Antigonish - even now, after the sex scandals, more than all of them combined. I will admit some of the architecture and the stained glass inside is gorgeous.

My town also has a United Church, a Baptist Church, and an Anglican Church. Since you're clearly unaware of the differences between those churches and the Catholic Church, at least in Canada, let me educate you. The United Church is an amalgamation of most of the Presbyterian Church of Canada, all of the Methodist Church of Canada, the Congregational Union of Ontario and Quebec, the Association of Local Union Churches, and the Evangelical United Brethren Church. It is a liberal organization that has supported drives for safe sex education, gay marriage, and abortion rights protection. It is the second largest church in my town; the priest plays D&D with me and has similar views on most things I do, except, of course, the divinity of Jesus. But we never talk about it.

Our Anglican Church is a very small, friendly church that has had attendance and fund-raising issues of late. The Anglican Church of Canada is the most progressive Anglican Church in the world, pushing the Anglican Communion forward on issues like abortion, gay marriage and inclusion of female members of the clergy. My local Anglican Church was one of the first dozen or so of Anglican churches to perform a gay marriage in Canada.

I can't say anything nice about the Baptists. They are just as bad as they are in the States. Thing is they meet in a tiny, old warehouse, and I've never seen more than a dozen cars there. Evangelical Baptists are a rarity in Nova Scotia, and they are generally considered powerless in this town, and in this province.

Outside of Antigonish, but within reasonable driving distance there is a Hall of the Jehovah's Witnesses, a small Mennonite community church...and no less than 5 other Catholic churches off the top of my head. Just to give you an idea of how the religious diversity of the region is.

The Roman Catholic Church is the largest religious institution in Canada. Of the top three Christian faiths it not only has the most members but it has more than all the other Christian faiths combined. It is far more officially conservative than most other religions. However, most Catholics aren't as addicted to dogma as the Pope (probably the last one a tiny bit more than this one) would like. That just isn't true in this town.

What I do know is that Catholics kept sex education out of Antigonish schools until a provincial mandate overruled the local schoolboard. Catholics kept education on abortion rights out of the local schools until the same. Catholics go to kids and go to the hospital and distribute flyers and Bibles informing people of their sins and how they can still be okay if they ask for confession on their deathbed. Priests have been known to enter rooms in the hospital and administer last rites without permission to people who don't want it. The local Catholic priest is invited to every local ceremony to give prayer - none other ever are. There are multiple places in Antigonish where you cannot get a job unless they see you at St. Ninians. When a man I know was beaten near-to-death by a group of football players for the crime of being gay (not hitting on the football players, simply being gay in a public place) it was Catholics who tried to block a permit for a public protest against anti-gay violence.

Interestingly, the Catholics seem to have little interest in going after the university. It's like they consider whatever happens on university ground to be long gone. Even the members of the Church who live on campus are pretty kind old men and women, who show a lot of concern for a person individually but rarely say anything about the sin that occurs on school grounds - except for one retired priest, who recently passed, who always railed about the evils of youth. The only Roman Catholic priest, Father Paul, who I've ever had any modicum of personal respect for also lived and worked at StFX. Of course, Father Paul also was a very liberal man (for a Catholic priest) who believed the Church needed to change. He was constantly at odds with the Bishop of Antigonish, though quietly and politely. When some of the local sex scandal news broke, he was...unsurprised, grim, and sad. Honestly so. He protested some of the things they tried to do before the local diocese agreed to settle - so they shipped him away from here rather than listen to his recommendations. Put him in a tiny parish in another province, well away from the media attention.

So yeah, the Catholics are the problem. It's less nowadays, due to a combination of outside pressure and the loss of influence of the Church after priests in Antigonish were caught raping little boys, and then after the bishop who was brought in to right the ship turned out to jerk off to pictures of naked young boys being flogged with rosaries. But if the priest gets up at St Ninians and says that there has been a new attack on the community through schools, or a new business, or anything, people will protest it, and they will fight it, and if it's a new business (say, a local gaming shop that they claim is for "Satan's cult worship" or a nice, needed, classy sex shop) it'll die. The other churches? Never a problem. Well maybe the Baptists, but really, they aren't anyone. They don't count, they don't have the numbers and influence. They call Antigonish "The Little Vatican" - and they're right.
 
StFX might be named after a Catholic saint, but it is a public institution. There are still some members of it's former Catholic past that are alive and the university houses and feeds daily, but there are no members of the Roman Catholic clergy on staff, except for one particular priest who is hired by the Students' Union. It's a secular school, with an extremely liberal membership, in professors, students, and directors. There's a few vestiges of Catholicism left that the students barely tolerate and certainly pay no attention to. Since I am familiar with the town and an alumnus of the school, I can say this with some assurances.
Vestiges such as? There's a huge difference between barely tolerating something or not paying attention to it.
Liberal? That's how I know Catholicism in the Netherlands. Public and liberal. And tolerance for everybody who studies there. StFX is a Catholic University and apparently it is a pretty good one.
The Roman Catholic Church is the largest religious institution in Canada. Of the top three Christian faiths it not only has the most members but it has more than all the other Christian faiths combined. It is far more officially conservative than most other religions. However, most Catholics aren't as addicted to dogma as the Pope (probably the last one a tiny bit more than this one) would like. That just isn't true in this town.

What I do know is that Catholics kept sex education out of Antigonish schools until a provincial mandate overruled the local schoolboard. Catholics kept education on abortion rights out of the local schools until the same. Catholics go to kids and go to the hospital and distribute flyers and Bibles informing people of their sins and how they can still be okay if they ask for confession on their deathbed. Priests have been known to enter rooms in the hospital and administer last rites without permission to people who don't want it. The local Catholic priest is invited to every local ceremony to give prayer - none other ever are. There are multiple places in Antigonish where you cannot get a job unless they see you at St. Ninians. When a man I know was beaten near-to-death by a group of football players for the crime of being gay (not hitting on the football players, simply being gay in a public place) it was Catholics who tried to block a permit for a public protest against anti-gay violence.
This gives me an idea of a town with a population fearing the Church. To a certain extent, it's like Poland. Or even worse.
Interestingly, the Catholics seem to have little interest in going after the university.
It's like they consider whatever happens on university ground to be long gone. Even the members of the Church who live on campus are pretty kind old men and women, who show a lot of concern for a person individually but rarely say anything about the sin that occurs on school grounds - except for one retired priest, who recently passed, who always railed about the evils of youth. The only Roman Catholic priest, Father Paul, who I've ever had any modicum of personal respect for also lived and worked at StFX. Of course, Father Paul also was a very liberal man (for a Catholic priest) who believed the Church needed to change. He was constantly at odds with the Bishop of Antigonish, though quietly and politely. When some of the local sex scandal news broke, he was...unsurprised, grim, and sad. Honestly so. He protested some of the things they tried to do before the local diocese agreed to settle - so they shipped him away from here rather than listen to his recommendations. Put him in a tiny parish in another province, well away from the media attention.

So yeah, the Catholics are the problem.
Who do you mean when you speak of Catholics? The rulers? The ones in robes? Do you really think none of the students or teachers are Catholic? Perhaps they are not raving that much about it (certainly not since the scandals!), or taking part in vestiges, but that doesn't mean they are not Catholic.
The other churches? Never a problem. Well maybe the Baptists, but really, they aren't anyone. They don't count, they don't have the numbers and influence. They call Antigonish "The Little Vatican" - and they're right.
I wonder how you would like your university if it were a Baptist one.

Reading all this, I am not sure if "the Catholics" are the problem. Father Paul was not the problem. He is a Catholic. The Catholics who have the power are the problem. If they let the reigns a bit looser, the population dares to be more free as well.

Speaking of power, that's exactly why I am glad that we're having a different Pope in Rome. He will have a hard time with Antigonish if he wants to change matters, that's for sure. I already heard that North American bishops are the ones having the most problems with the new Pope. The Pope is more progressive than these guys. And that's what's needed if we crave for change.
 
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