The Economic Crisis In Europe

____no5

____no5

Free Man
I wanted to start a separate topic for the economical situation in Greece.
Every week there is a strike somewhere, everywhere and all the time people are talking about the failure of the country.
The country is bankrupted already, no matter what we hear in the news.

On 3rd of March some terrible measures have taken from the Government.
The prices started already to go up, the salaries down, the price of the unleaded 95 is close to 1.5€ !!
and the price of the cigarettes is expected to be risen up to almost 1€ on May.
Everybody things that those measurements needed to be taken, but now people ask for justice
they ask for doctors to pay taxes, free lancers to pay and not the same ol'strangled salaries and retired helpless ones.
Or the riots of December 2008 will be repeated even in a bigger scale sometime in the future...

Now there is a big disappointment (to say the less) for Germany here, and I don't speak for the Focus magazine issue. No.
Germany start to show a different face regarding Greece, something that wakes up old ghosts and memories.
I too, for once, I'm feeling that Germany is heading very wrong, while France is more close to the spirit of union.

I believe that (even Greece doesn't 'deserve' it) Europe must help Greece. Not out of philanthropy.
But because if Greece collapses, all the structure of EU will collapse, not just the economic idea, but also the idea of the union.



EDIT : I changed the title of the topic, as Ireland started negotiations with the IMF and Portugal is likely to start soon.
 
Re: Greece, now.

One Euro for a packet of cigarettes? Blimey, if you lived in the UK you would be apoplectic at what you have to pay here - almost seven Euros. Thankfully, I don't smoke.

I read on BBC (link) that to relieve some of the debt, Greece was advised to sell some of its uninhabited islands ("Sell your islands, you bankrupt Greeks - and the Acropolis too!", said Bild rather sympathetically!). Is that a viable option?
 
Re: Greece, now.

I'm not big on EU. Too much corruption, too much off country control. Great benefits for companies and I like the fact that I can pretty much import freely from say, Germany and I don't have to get a Visa, but nowhere near positive sides to make up for the ridiculous EU directives being forced upon the members of EU:  We're way better off here with our own currency, SEK anyway. We can control our own prime rate etc to better stabilize the situation in Sweden, where EU seek to stabilize the entire union.  Great if you're for Euro and EU - In that case good in the long run, potentially bad short term for specific participants in the Euro program.  I mean, EU has grown to be a power to be reckoned with in global politics, a much stronger voice than that of all the individual countries. I do however think that the EU constitution must be altered slightly somehow to give the individual regions more room to play yet maintain a solid union.

 
 
Re: Greece, now.

Will-I-Am said:
and the price of the cigarettes is expected to be risen up to almost 1€ on May.
Click to expand...

If you can't patch up the 1 Euro to buy a pack of cigarettes, may I suggest you stop smoking? Some people...


It may sound arrogant, but what is happening there is, to a certain extent, the Greek government's own fault. Producing fake financial statements to be able to join the Euro group isn't very much in the union spirit, is it? And now they expect other countries to act in the union spirit?
 
Re: Greece, now.

No you don't seem to get it... It was 3.2€ and it will be 4.2€ on May...

Perun said:
It may sound arrogant, but what is happening there is, to a certain extent, the Greek government's own fault. Producing fake financial statements to be able to join the Euro group isn't very much in the union spirit, is it? And now they expect other countries to act in the union spirit?
Click to expand...

It's not arrogant, it's the truth. I would say that is Greek people's fault as well. They did vote them after all.
(and many other things)

What is sad, is that it will be the same old people that will pay : The salaried -as usual- who can not hide their income.

I must say here that during the years Greek governments were not able (or didn't want) to tax the free lancers
so in order to gather money they used to apply to indirect taxes : through cigarettes, fuel, alcohol.
As a result supermarket prices here are 20% higher that let's say Paris (!!)
the average price of coffee in a coffee shop is 4€, while the average price of a cocktail 9€
and I can assure you that even feta in Greece is more expensive than in Paris.
We are talking about a country where the basic salary is 700€.
And are talking for a country with no social help.
Forget everything you know from your countries : if you are sick you better go to the private hospital
while there is a whole system of private education : this means that after a child finish his public school
he takes private lessons for maths, history, physics, or whatever, usually by paying black money.

In this country, if you want an information from a public service -an information only-
you better take a few hours license from your work and go to ask yourself face to face.
I had a similar experience before a week, I felt so angry, during two days I couldn't do anything from telephone
the third day I had to be physically there just to get the information.

It's strange but people deep inside them are happy that things went that way, cause they feel
that after some 10 very hard years their country will at last look more European as it looks today.  
 
Re: Greece, now.

Will-I-Am said:
No you don't seem to get it... It was 3.2€ and it will be 4.2€ on May...
Click to expand...

So you meant to say it will rise by one Euro.
 
Re: Greece, now.

Yeap, everything is rising ridiculously high. It's very sad, especially for the elder  :(
 
Re: Greece, now.

Perun said:
So you meant to say it will rise by one Euro.
Click to expand...

Perun, remember who you're talking to. Reading his rambling above, I had forgotten what an ... erm ... ahh ... "adventure" it is to read his posts. Linguistic confusion should be expected.


(Just kidding around here, 5. Good to see you back.)
 
Re: Greece, now.

yeah, cigarettes are expensive world wide. When I worked at a gas station 5 years ago EXPENSIVE smokes were 7 dollars while the mainstream brands were between 4.50-5. now a pack of Marlboro is 7 freaking dollars.... glad I don't smoke.
 
Re: Greece, now.

SinisterMinisterX said:
Perun, remember who you're talking to. Reading his rambling above, I had forgotten what an ... erm ... ahh ... "adventure" it is to read his posts. Linguistic confusion should be expected.
Click to expand...

:innocent: I remember a DICK-tionary attack some years back! And let's not forget the legendary moment regarding the 'or' issue!
GK had a big laugh out of it... It was an epic time then!!  :D

SinisterMinisterX said:
(Just kidding around here, 5. Good to see you back.)
Click to expand...

Thank you SMX, Glad to see you too!
I'm again on a transit period and until to get completely installed to my new base, I'll be posting not so often for a while...
 
Re: Greece, now.

Albie said:
One Euro for a packet of cigarettes? Blimey, if you lived in the UK you would be apoplectic at what you have to pay here - almost seven Euros. Thankfully, I don't smoke.

I read on BBC (link) that to relieve some of the debt, Greece was advised to sell some of its uninhabited islands ("Sell your islands, you bankrupt Greeks - and the Acropolis too!", said Bild rather sympathetically!). Is that a viable option?
Click to expand...

My memory is that this was meant sarcastically.  Its been a while since I've read it.
Yax said:
I'm not big on EU. Too much corruption, too much off country control. Great benefits for companies and I like the fact that I can pretty much import freely from say, Germany and I don't have to get a Visa, but nowhere near positive sides to make up for the ridiculous EU directives being forced upon the members of EU:  We're way better off here with our own currency, SEK anyway. We can control our own prime rate etc to better stabilize the situation in Sweden, where EU seek to stabilize the entire union.  Great if you're for Euro and EU - In that case good in the long run, potentially bad short term for specific participants in the Euro program.  I mean, EU has grown to be a power to be reckoned with in global politics, a much stronger voice than that of all the individual countries. I do however think that the EU constitution must be altered slightly somehow to give the individual regions more room to play yet maintain a solid union.

 
Click to expand...

One of the things going for Sweden right now is precisely that the krona is not attached to the Euro.  Many predict larger investments into Sweden, as a result.
 
Re: Greece, now.

Eurostat revised Greece’s 2009 deficit to 13.6 per cent of Gross Domestic Product from 12.7 per cent.
As a result, the yield on 10-year debt has been risen to 8.83 per cent.
It must be the first time -if I'm not wrong- of such a negative value since Greece has joint Euro-zone.
 
Re: Greece, now.

Well, from earlier posts it is clear that Greece has not been exactly honest about their finances... so it is no surprise it is the lowest since joining the EU.
 
Re: Greece, now.

Yes of course, but it was not this my point.
The situation is becoming very critical not only for Greece but for the whole Europe, due to a possible domino effect.
It is now a race : Some elections in Germany will take place -I think 9 of May- and the final date for Greece to pay its debts will be -again I think- 19 May.
(Merkel wants to win these elections, so she somehow sacrificed the chance of rescue earlier Greece and somehow EU
because German people does not want to pay for Greeks any more)
Greece has not this money to pay. So the help from EU, IMF and ECB must come before May 19th for the country not to bankrupt (=stop paying salaries).
So we speak about 10 days, which is really a very short period for activating the rescue package.
 
Re: Greece, now.

Will-I-Am said:
It is now a race : Some elections in Germany will take place -I think 9 of May- and the final date for Greece to pay its debts will be -again I think- 19 May.
(Merkel wants to win these elections, so she somehow sacrificed the chance of rescue earlier Greece and somehow EU
because German people does not want to pay for Greeks any more)
Click to expand...

Yes, state elections in the most populous state, and a decision on whether the current government will retain its majority in the federal council.
 
Re: Greece, now.

At last Merkel understood that it is (also) Germany's interest to provide help to Greece.
According to Der Spiegel, IMF will supervise Greece for at least 10 years, which I believe is a good thing in the long term.
Greece has done so many things in a wrong way and for such a long period, that providing financial aid to that country
without supervision, would simply not work. Not even now.
Anyway Merkel took too much time to decide, and this could be fatal for Europe economy.

This Perun's quote belongs to UK Elections topic

Perun said:
Actually, I think the Greek crisis will have a lot of impact on the identity of the European Union, no matter in what direction.
Click to expand...

Yeap. Maybe to a less beautiful but more real situation. This could mean a virtual division of the Eurozone with Germany, Holland, Belgium, Finland etc on one side
and the southern countries plus Ireland, on the other. I'm not sure about France -which side it will take.
This crisis has shown again that even if Germany is the economic leader, France is the essence of European Idea, its heart.
What people -but mostly German politicians- seem to realise only now, French politicians and people had realized since more than two months :
Providing aid to Greece for saving the Euro as well as the idea of the Union.
Two lost months and now, things got so much worsen, Spain, Portugal and who knows which else...
Not to mention the ridiculously high rate of interest Germany put in the saving agreement =5%

I was reading today that Portugal decided to loan Greece with a smaller interest that it borrows. What a huge action of solidarity!
On the other side Merkel wants to think that loaning with such a high interest will stop other countries from becoming a new Greece.
Bullshits! The only thing that will happen is renegotiation of the debt, nothing else, and the saving plan will be completely ridiculed.
And this could easily lead to the virtual separation I was talking in the start, as Germans will be completely disappointed then (they already are)

But it won't be the fault of any Greece then, the mistake is initial : the 5% interest of the "rescue plan" and it's 'Made in Germany'
 
Re: Greece, now.

Yes, exactly! This is what I was talking about: the EU is facing it's first real financial crisis that wasn't a shared burden (recessions are shared). Greece has made errors and now it is up to the other EU member states to decide what to do. If they pull together they create common security at the expense of the now; if they do not act together, they may regret it in the future. It is a very interesting moment in the pan-European movement.
 
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