I don't know. I thought Bruce slaughtered Futureal and Lord of the Flies. Having said that, The Clansman does sound fantastic with Bruce, but I think it sounds great with Blaze too.
The Blaze Era
- Thread starter HallowedBeMyName
- Start date
chaosapiant
Ancient Marinade
Personally, The X Factor is in my top 5 Maiden albums. I absolutely love Blaze's voice, and love the two albums he did with the band. I also love the fact that Maiden not only took a big risk in hiring someone who they knew couldn't do the older songs justice, but they also didn't lose the musical growth they made on X Factor and VXI when Bruce and Adrian returned. I like that the kept the cropped logo, and the longer song intros. Not because I find them artistically better than there 80's heyday, but because it showed that even during the "darker" period of the band, they still loved what they were doing and kept those elements. To me, Brave New World sounds like a direct extension of VXI. I DO wish Kevin Shirley had mixed those two Blaze albums though, because I can feel how heavy both albums really want to be, but the production makes the guitars way too thin. The live version of "Blood on the World's Hands" from the Eddie's Archive set shows just how heavy Maiden were during this period, and it's brutal!
All that being said, i'm glad Bruce is back in the band. Also, as much as I do love Blaze's voice, I think Bruce's renditions of the few live tracks we've heard (Clansman, Sign of the Cross, Futureal, and especially Lord of the Flies) sounds absolutely stunning! I think the big difference is that Bruce can sing lower, but Blaze cannot sing higher. Either way, I loved Blaze, and love Bruce even more. It took a solid set of balls to hire Blaze. I have the first edition of the "Run to the Hills" biography, and towards the end of the book, you really get a positive vibe about where the band was coming from at the time and how much they loved having Blaze in the band.
All that being said, i'm glad Bruce is back in the band. Also, as much as I do love Blaze's voice, I think Bruce's renditions of the few live tracks we've heard (Clansman, Sign of the Cross, Futureal, and especially Lord of the Flies) sounds absolutely stunning! I think the big difference is that Bruce can sing lower, but Blaze cannot sing higher. Either way, I loved Blaze, and love Bruce even more. It took a solid set of balls to hire Blaze. I have the first edition of the "Run to the Hills" biography, and towards the end of the book, you really get a positive vibe about where the band was coming from at the time and how much they loved having Blaze in the band.
TAC
Nomad
I do like both albums, and The X Factor has some of the most interesting ideas ever bought to any Maiden album, but to me, without anyone to balance or challenge Harris' direction, It really feels like a demo or unfinished record. I find it an incredibly frustrating listen because I think with better arrangements/production this really couldve been a masterpiece.
VXI is a much more complete album with a classic Maiden feel, but also suffers from an inferior production.
I would love to hear them do The Educated Fool live with Bruce. I think the chorus would just kill!
VXI is a much more complete album with a classic Maiden feel, but also suffers from an inferior production.
I would love to hear them do The Educated Fool live with Bruce. I think the chorus would just kill!
Holy crap, a TAC sighting on Maidenfans??
Welcome TAC - I'm a DTF lurker, I know your work from there.
Welcome TAC - I'm a DTF lurker, I know your work from there.
JackAttack
Trooper
My personal Blaze Bayley connundrum
Ever since I fell in love with Maiden a few years ago, I have continually struggled with the enigma that is Blaze Bayley. I remember listening to The X Factor for the first time and almost immediately tracking through Sign of the Cross when Blaze's voice came in. I had little experience listening to Blaze's previous projects prior to him joining Maiden, and my fears of the massive difference between he and Mr. Dickinson's voices proved to be true.
Ever since then, I have grown to enjoy The X Factor and Virtual XI for what they are... a transitional period in the band's history, but still a good collection of Maiden tracks. It's been argued here and everywhere by Maiden fans all around the globe, so I won't go into the age old topic of whether Blaze was/is a good vocalist or not (that's a subjective topic, anyway). The fact of the matter is that Blaze's voice bridged the gap between the gruffness of Paul and the soaring, atmospheric wails of Bruce... and my problem with this has always been the fundamental difference between the music during both Paul and Bruce's tenures with the band. Iron Maiden and Killers were obviously the fledgling years, where the band was finding themselves, still very gritty, very fast and in your face. When Bruce joined, the band came into their own, becoming full on heavy metal heroes, playing not only fast and aggressive music, but mastering it like none before. Once Bruce left and was replaced by Blaze, an accomplished vocalist in his own right, the band had entered already entered a transitional phase in a musical sense with the departure of Adrian and the release of No Prayer... and Fear of the Dark.
I may seem like I'm rambling here and retreading the obvious for all us hardcore fans... but my point in all of this is that I think I've finally pinpointed the issue I have with the Blaze Bayley period... After becoming more familiar with Blaze's solo career and other work in the past few months (which is spectacular, I must add) and re-listening to X Factor and VXI many times, I determind (for myself, of course) that Maiden simply hired a vocalist that was ill suited for the transitional period that Maiden had entered. This is not to take away from what Blaze has done, and you are all obviously welcome to vehemently disagree with me.
Like it or not, the songs that Maiden began to write in the early 1980's were tailor made for a voice like Bruce's. As Bruce became a more and more integral part of the band and literally the voice of Iron Maiden, the songs conformed to his vocal style. This is evident when listening to live tracks of Bruce singing earlier material... Bruce was always destined to be the voice of Iron Maiden. Blaze on the other hand, despite having a spectacular voice for classic heavy metal, simply was not. Despite recording classics like Man on the Edge and absolutely nailing the delivery, Blaze will always be better known by the masses for butchering 80's Bruce songs like The Trooper when performing live, whether deserved or not.
My point in all of this is that I believe Blaze Bayley was thrust into a role he simply was not fully qualified for. And honestly, I can come up with only a handful of vocalist in the history of metal that may have been able to slide into the role Blaze was given in the mid 90's and done even a decent job at best. The fact is that Bruce Dickinson was, is and always will be the voice of Iron Maiden. Blaze had the unenviable role of following Bruce up, a job that simply will always have a success rate of 0%. It is unfortunate that this is so, because Blaze truly is a great vocalist. He simply was given a role of singing for a band that had already committed to the vocal styles of a very different vocalist and front man, and one that inevitably recommitted to that vocalist only a few years later.
I apologize for the long winded-ness of this post, but it's something I've had on my mind for a long time. Hopefully the mods won't paint this as Blaze bashing (I don't think it is at all), but I wanted to put this out there and foster a discussion.
Ever since I fell in love with Maiden a few years ago, I have continually struggled with the enigma that is Blaze Bayley. I remember listening to The X Factor for the first time and almost immediately tracking through Sign of the Cross when Blaze's voice came in. I had little experience listening to Blaze's previous projects prior to him joining Maiden, and my fears of the massive difference between he and Mr. Dickinson's voices proved to be true.
Ever since then, I have grown to enjoy The X Factor and Virtual XI for what they are... a transitional period in the band's history, but still a good collection of Maiden tracks. It's been argued here and everywhere by Maiden fans all around the globe, so I won't go into the age old topic of whether Blaze was/is a good vocalist or not (that's a subjective topic, anyway). The fact of the matter is that Blaze's voice bridged the gap between the gruffness of Paul and the soaring, atmospheric wails of Bruce... and my problem with this has always been the fundamental difference between the music during both Paul and Bruce's tenures with the band. Iron Maiden and Killers were obviously the fledgling years, where the band was finding themselves, still very gritty, very fast and in your face. When Bruce joined, the band came into their own, becoming full on heavy metal heroes, playing not only fast and aggressive music, but mastering it like none before. Once Bruce left and was replaced by Blaze, an accomplished vocalist in his own right, the band had entered already entered a transitional phase in a musical sense with the departure of Adrian and the release of No Prayer... and Fear of the Dark.
I may seem like I'm rambling here and retreading the obvious for all us hardcore fans... but my point in all of this is that I think I've finally pinpointed the issue I have with the Blaze Bayley period... After becoming more familiar with Blaze's solo career and other work in the past few months (which is spectacular, I must add) and re-listening to X Factor and VXI many times, I determind (for myself, of course) that Maiden simply hired a vocalist that was ill suited for the transitional period that Maiden had entered. This is not to take away from what Blaze has done, and you are all obviously welcome to vehemently disagree with me.
Like it or not, the songs that Maiden began to write in the early 1980's were tailor made for a voice like Bruce's. As Bruce became a more and more integral part of the band and literally the voice of Iron Maiden, the songs conformed to his vocal style. This is evident when listening to live tracks of Bruce singing earlier material... Bruce was always destined to be the voice of Iron Maiden. Blaze on the other hand, despite having a spectacular voice for classic heavy metal, simply was not. Despite recording classics like Man on the Edge and absolutely nailing the delivery, Blaze will always be better known by the masses for butchering 80's Bruce songs like The Trooper when performing live, whether deserved or not.
My point in all of this is that I believe Blaze Bayley was thrust into a role he simply was not fully qualified for. And honestly, I can come up with only a handful of vocalist in the history of metal that may have been able to slide into the role Blaze was given in the mid 90's and done even a decent job at best. The fact is that Bruce Dickinson was, is and always will be the voice of Iron Maiden. Blaze had the unenviable role of following Bruce up, a job that simply will always have a success rate of 0%. It is unfortunate that this is so, because Blaze truly is a great vocalist. He simply was given a role of singing for a band that had already committed to the vocal styles of a very different vocalist and front man, and one that inevitably recommitted to that vocalist only a few years later.
I apologize for the long winded-ness of this post, but it's something I've had on my mind for a long time. Hopefully the mods won't paint this as Blaze bashing (I don't think it is at all), but I wanted to put this out there and foster a discussion.
Re: My personal Blaze Bayley connundrum
I've picked out a couple statements that I think deserve comment...
First of all, I don't think most fans think of Blaze that way. That may have been true when Blaze was in Maiden and for a while after, but I think he's gotten fair recognition for his solo career since. He is comparable to Ripper Owens in that way: the public impression has come quite a way from just thinking "Halford clone".
And your second point up there is the key thing. Dickinson is one of the top metal singers ever, and only someone else of that caliber could have succeeded. Even then, it's very hard to pull off the old singer's songs. We're all thinking about Dio today, right? One of the best ever, and yet the Ozzy-era songs always sounded weird to me when Dio sang them.
I think the mistake which Maiden made was asking Blaze (a baritone) to sing in Bruce's range (tenor). It can be done, but only with difficulty, and eventually it kills your voice. If Maiden had pulled a Sabbath and detuned all their guitars to C# for the Bruce-era songs, Blaze would have sounded much better.
JackAttack said:
I've picked out a couple statements that I think deserve comment...
First of all, I don't think most fans think of Blaze that way. That may have been true when Blaze was in Maiden and for a while after, but I think he's gotten fair recognition for his solo career since. He is comparable to Ripper Owens in that way: the public impression has come quite a way from just thinking "Halford clone".
And your second point up there is the key thing. Dickinson is one of the top metal singers ever, and only someone else of that caliber could have succeeded. Even then, it's very hard to pull off the old singer's songs. We're all thinking about Dio today, right? One of the best ever, and yet the Ozzy-era songs always sounded weird to me when Dio sang them.
I think the mistake which Maiden made was asking Blaze (a baritone) to sing in Bruce's range (tenor). It can be done, but only with difficulty, and eventually it kills your voice. If Maiden had pulled a Sabbath and detuned all their guitars to C# for the Bruce-era songs, Blaze would have sounded much better.
JackAttack
Trooper
Re: My personal Blaze Bayley connundrum
You could certainly be right, but in my personal experience, only the truest Maiden fans are the ones who have either atoned for their original disposition against Blaze (like me) or understood from the beginning the issues inherent with hiring a vocalist drastically different than his predecessor (I'll put you in that camp, SMX). Nearly every metal fan that I know that enjoys Maiden but is not a die-hard fan pretty much looks down on the Blaze albums with varying levels of contempt, and since I've begun to understand the lack of merit in that stance I always try to explain why it's not fair to look upon the Blaze phase (
) in that way. This could just be me, but I'm sure other hardcore Maiden fans around these parts have had similar experiences. You're probably right about the issue with the live performances, though... now that Blaze has been out of the band for over a decade, it's hard for anyone look down on him now for not being able to perform tracks that simply were not suited for him.
You're absolutely right about Dio. While Ronnie certainly did a great job filling in for Ozzy, I've always felt the same way about him singing Ozzy songs. It would be interesting if we could all go back in time and change the course of history by thrusting a successful singer comparable in style to Bruce into the vocalist vacancy instead of Blaze, and then see whether they would have had as much success as Ronnie did with Sabbath... can you imagine if 'Arry hired Michael Kiske of Helloween's Keeper of the Seven Keys era (who left Helloween in 1993)? Now there's an intriguing alternate reality
.
You're absolutely right, though. And what you're saying is a succinct form of part of my argument. Blaze's tenure as a singer for Maiden was doomed from the beginning simply because of the vocal differences between he and Bruce, coupled with the issues of Blaze straining his voice for a handful of years in order to attempt to sing Bruce tracks in a live setting.
SinisterMinisterX said:
You could certainly be right, but in my personal experience, only the truest Maiden fans are the ones who have either atoned for their original disposition against Blaze (like me) or understood from the beginning the issues inherent with hiring a vocalist drastically different than his predecessor (I'll put you in that camp, SMX). Nearly every metal fan that I know that enjoys Maiden but is not a die-hard fan pretty much looks down on the Blaze albums with varying levels of contempt, and since I've begun to understand the lack of merit in that stance I always try to explain why it's not fair to look upon the Blaze phase (
) in that way. This could just be me, but I'm sure other hardcore Maiden fans around these parts have had similar experiences. You're probably right about the issue with the live performances, though... now that Blaze has been out of the band for over a decade, it's hard for anyone look down on him now for not being able to perform tracks that simply were not suited for him.SinisterMinisterX said:
You're absolutely right about Dio. While Ronnie certainly did a great job filling in for Ozzy, I've always felt the same way about him singing Ozzy songs. It would be interesting if we could all go back in time and change the course of history by thrusting a successful singer comparable in style to Bruce into the vocalist vacancy instead of Blaze, and then see whether they would have had as much success as Ronnie did with Sabbath... can you imagine if 'Arry hired Michael Kiske of Helloween's Keeper of the Seven Keys era (who left Helloween in 1993)? Now there's an intriguing alternate reality
. You're absolutely right, though. And what you're saying is a succinct form of part of my argument. Blaze's tenure as a singer for Maiden was doomed from the beginning simply because of the vocal differences between he and Bruce, coupled with the issues of Blaze straining his voice for a handful of years in order to attempt to sing Bruce tracks in a live setting.
Invader
Ancient Mariner
Re: My personal Blaze Bayley connundrum
I'd go with JackAttack in this one, it's my experience too. I have a friend, who is a metal fan, and has listened to Maiden for as long as I have, but he still doesn't respect Blaze despite numerous efforts from me to "introduce" Blaze. I asked him this year if he'd want to go see Blaze live, and he asked me why I'd like to go see a "fail-Maiden". Another friend of mine just isn't really interested; when I've played Blaze-era maiden songs, he's said something like "that was pretty good" but he's never been really enthusiastic about it.
Then again, my brother listens to Blaze more than Maiden, so go figure...
I'd go with JackAttack in this one, it's my experience too. I have a friend, who is a metal fan, and has listened to Maiden for as long as I have, but he still doesn't respect Blaze despite numerous efforts from me to "introduce" Blaze. I asked him this year if he'd want to go see Blaze live, and he asked me why I'd like to go see a "fail-Maiden". Another friend of mine just isn't really interested; when I've played Blaze-era maiden songs, he's said something like "that was pretty good" but he's never been really enthusiastic about it.
Then again, my brother listens to Blaze more than Maiden, so go figure...
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Re: My personal Blaze Bayley connundrum
With all respect, but your post is also subjective. I think it's a bit unnecessary to open a new topic about this. However, I don't blame you, there's a big chance you have not seen this topic: "The Blaze era"(?)
I think your view fits perfectly in there. If you like you can also react on posts by many other users about the Blaze Era. The latest post was one and a half month ago.
Sorry for not responding more to the content of your post. I rather wanted to show you the other topic first.
I find it unnecessary to leave that one in oblivion, especially now that someone wants continue the discussion.
JackAttack said:
With all respect, but your post is also subjective. I think it's a bit unnecessary to open a new topic about this. However, I don't blame you, there's a big chance you have not seen this topic: "The Blaze era"(?)
I think your view fits perfectly in there. If you like you can also react on posts by many other users about the Blaze Era. The latest post was one and a half month ago.
Sorry for not responding more to the content of your post. I rather wanted to show you the other topic first.
I find it unnecessary to leave that one in oblivion, especially now that someone wants continue the discussion.
JackAttack
Trooper
Re: My personal Blaze Bayley connundrum
I opened up a new topic because I didn't see the previous Blaze post, and even I had I still would've started a new thread because I've noticed old timers bitching about newbies re-posting on old threads before. If the mods want to combine this thread with the other Blaze thread, that's fine, but it's not really a mistake on my part.
Also, I tried to make the point throughout my original post that what I was saying was my opinion and that it was all subjective. I also tried to point out that this issue with Blaze being the "wrong" vocalist is for Maiden more open to discussion/debate than the silly argument of whether Blaze is a good vocalist or not. That was my point.
I understand where you're coming from because you old timers have probably seen many people post stuff similar to this, but I don't see what's wrong with me starting a new discussion even if a thread already exists for it (especially one that hasn't been posted on in awhile).
Forostar said:
I opened up a new topic because I didn't see the previous Blaze post, and even I had I still would've started a new thread because I've noticed old timers bitching about newbies re-posting on old threads before. If the mods want to combine this thread with the other Blaze thread, that's fine, but it's not really a mistake on my part.
Also, I tried to make the point throughout my original post that what I was saying was my opinion and that it was all subjective. I also tried to point out that this issue with Blaze being the "wrong" vocalist is for Maiden more open to discussion/debate than the silly argument of whether Blaze is a good vocalist or not. That was my point.
I understand where you're coming from because you old timers have probably seen many people post stuff similar to this, but I don't see what's wrong with me starting a new discussion even if a thread already exists for it (especially one that hasn't been posted on in awhile).
JackAttack
Trooper
Re: My personal Blaze Bayley connundrum
There's nothing wrong with inviting me there. I was actually just checking it out now and reading people's opinions. But you can't blame me for not seeing it and posting my own topic, especially when I've read posts of people being chastised for rekindling old/dead threads (even if they aren't that old).
I'll repost my original post into the Blaze Era thread so we can get back on topic, because this is discussion I've really been wanting to have recently with you guys. So yeah, let's move along.
Forostar said:
There's nothing wrong with inviting me there. I was actually just checking it out now and reading people's opinions. But you can't blame me for not seeing it and posting my own topic, especially when I've read posts of people being chastised for rekindling old/dead threads (even if they aren't that old).
I'll repost my original post into the Blaze Era thread so we can get back on topic, because this is discussion I've really been wanting to have recently with you guys. So yeah, let's move along.
Re: My personal Blaze Bayley connundrum
Hold on. I can just merge the threads.
Hold on. I can just merge the threads.
JackAttack
Trooper
Re: My personal Blaze Bayley connundrum
Excellent! I just caught up with all the posts on the other one. This one obviously hasn't gotten very long yet, so that'll be perfect. Thanks, LC.
LooseCannon said:
Excellent! I just caught up with all the posts on the other one. This one obviously hasn't gotten very long yet, so that'll be perfect. Thanks, LC.
All done!
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Re: My personal Blaze Bayley connundrum
Thanks great merger!
JackAttack, you say that Blaze will always be better known by the masses for butchering 80's Bruce songs like The Trooper when performing live, whether deserved or not.
I have read Blaze's biography (I invite you to do the same!) where he states an account about all kinds of issues which went wrong beyond his control.
I remember Blaze for his concerts where he indeed failed on several songs, but I remember him better for his albums, and the songs he did do well. I followed his solo career from the beginning which helped a lot to appreciate his voice.
Thanks great merger!
JackAttack, you say that Blaze will always be better known by the masses for butchering 80's Bruce songs like The Trooper when performing live, whether deserved or not.
I have read Blaze's biography (I invite you to do the same!) where he states an account about all kinds of issues which went wrong beyond his control.
I remember Blaze for his concerts where he indeed failed on several songs, but I remember him better for his albums, and the songs he did do well. I followed his solo career from the beginning which helped a lot to appreciate his voice.
JackAttack
Trooper
Re: My personal Blaze Bayley connundrum
As a newer Maiden fan I only have the albums and recorded live performances to go off of, but as I said I've grown to appreciate Blaze like most here.
It definitely would be interesting to read Blaze's biography. I have a lot of reading to catch up on, but that will be one I most definitely pick up in the future. I haven't heard it from the horse's mouth like you have, but I always assumed based on things I've read from other members of Maiden and in interviews that Blaze's tenure was mired by things out of his control and his difficulty with the strenuous tour schedule, which no one can blame him for. My realization of this awhile back has helped me appreciate him more and enjoy the Blaze era albums more, but I still rank them rather lower on my list of favorite Maiden albums (that's a different issue, though
).
Forostar said:
As a newer Maiden fan I only have the albums and recorded live performances to go off of, but as I said I've grown to appreciate Blaze like most here.
It definitely would be interesting to read Blaze's biography. I have a lot of reading to catch up on, but that will be one I most definitely pick up in the future. I haven't heard it from the horse's mouth like you have, but I always assumed based on things I've read from other members of Maiden and in interviews that Blaze's tenure was mired by things out of his control and his difficulty with the strenuous tour schedule, which no one can blame him for. My realization of this awhile back has helped me appreciate him more and enjoy the Blaze era albums more, but I still rank them rather lower on my list of favorite Maiden albums (that's a different issue, though
).
chaosapiant
Ancient Marinade
One thing I absolutely think everyone should hear, is the bootleg of Blaze's final show with Maiden in Buenos Vista, I think it is. He does songs he has no business doing, can't really hit the high notes without screaming his ass off, and yet....it's magical. His absolute raw power and energy is furious to hear. He works with the crowd, he's into it, their into it, the boys are into. Nicko's drumming is fast and furious. In some ways I feel bad that was Blaze's last show, but damn if he didn't make it a good one.
