Syria
- Thread starter Forostar
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D
Deleted member 7164
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It's about a particular shade of grey, we all know that. From my angle, looks like the government is on the "white" side.
D
Deleted member 7164
Guest
@Forostar, I have some links containing criticism of those reports, will post them later.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Until now, the US made their biggest move towards the opposition in Syria:
recognition
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20690148
recognition
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20690148
D
Deleted member 7164
Guest
That should go hand in hand with this :
http://www.voltairenet.org/article176891.html
This site has "internal" informers, so it's a matter of believing or not, but additional mercenaries have been revealed by various news institutions in last few days. And coup d'etat remains one of few options foreign power can use in Syria without clearing it with Security Council. Following latest events in Syria and those in Libya, it's just a matter of western public thinking that someone has replaced Assad, it doesn't have to be true - a signal from "new" government for foreign aid regarding cleanups of "remaining regime forces".
Everything points to some kind of bigger intervention in close future.
I'd like to stir this discussion to talk about what would happen in case of completely open foreign military aid against Syrian government. Iran will do its best on preserving Assad's rule, they will continue to cooperate and trade via non-regulated channels (both countries are under some kind of international isolation), Russia's decision is somewhat vague - currently, they are doing everything to stop legit, "official" intervention via diplomatic means. But if USA led bunch decides to go around with some sort of scheme, will they counter that as well, eg. are they prepared to deploy troops in Syria? There are pros and cons here - Russia currently enjoys good position on international scene, their economy is still rising, and they have reported record employment since ever. They really don't need to go to war somewhere. On the other hand, losing Syria to pro American government in a bloody theatre would show weakness in protecting their allies and strategic partners. It would mean losing their only naval base on Mediterranean. Same goes for United States - the loss of Syrian goal would be a blow on international scene.
What would Assad do if he knew game's over? Syria has a somewhat capable army, which is still loyal to government. With 18 months or so of heavy campaigning and direct action against Syrian system, I would conclude that there would be no major officers switching sides until last moments of direct war. In any case, it's a matter of days or weeks for them in advent of heavy internal insurgency protected by NATO strikes. There are few hot spots around like Palestine and Lebanon, Syrian weapons could be influential there if they fall into wrong hands.
In any case, the demise of a fairly large country and a fairly large army would affect whole region, and not in a good way. Guys, dig your heads out of the sand, your countries (and mine, sadly) are supporting bloodthirsty extremists, Al-Qaeda (!) and such. The best equipped and trained rebel sub-movement, Jabhat Al-Nursa, 10,000+ strong, are a jihadist movement hoping to restore Islamic caliphate in Syria. The last thing people of whole mid east, and beyond, need right now is complete chaos and rampage in Syria.
http://www.voltairenet.org/article176891.html
This site has "internal" informers, so it's a matter of believing or not, but additional mercenaries have been revealed by various news institutions in last few days. And coup d'etat remains one of few options foreign power can use in Syria without clearing it with Security Council. Following latest events in Syria and those in Libya, it's just a matter of western public thinking that someone has replaced Assad, it doesn't have to be true - a signal from "new" government for foreign aid regarding cleanups of "remaining regime forces".
Everything points to some kind of bigger intervention in close future.
I'd like to stir this discussion to talk about what would happen in case of completely open foreign military aid against Syrian government. Iran will do its best on preserving Assad's rule, they will continue to cooperate and trade via non-regulated channels (both countries are under some kind of international isolation), Russia's decision is somewhat vague - currently, they are doing everything to stop legit, "official" intervention via diplomatic means. But if USA led bunch decides to go around with some sort of scheme, will they counter that as well, eg. are they prepared to deploy troops in Syria? There are pros and cons here - Russia currently enjoys good position on international scene, their economy is still rising, and they have reported record employment since ever. They really don't need to go to war somewhere. On the other hand, losing Syria to pro American government in a bloody theatre would show weakness in protecting their allies and strategic partners. It would mean losing their only naval base on Mediterranean. Same goes for United States - the loss of Syrian goal would be a blow on international scene.
What would Assad do if he knew game's over? Syria has a somewhat capable army, which is still loyal to government. With 18 months or so of heavy campaigning and direct action against Syrian system, I would conclude that there would be no major officers switching sides until last moments of direct war. In any case, it's a matter of days or weeks for them in advent of heavy internal insurgency protected by NATO strikes. There are few hot spots around like Palestine and Lebanon, Syrian weapons could be influential there if they fall into wrong hands.
In any case, the demise of a fairly large country and a fairly large army would affect whole region, and not in a good way. Guys, dig your heads out of the sand, your countries (and mine, sadly) are supporting bloodthirsty extremists, Al-Qaeda (!) and such. The best equipped and trained rebel sub-movement, Jabhat Al-Nursa, 10,000+ strong, are a jihadist movement hoping to restore Islamic caliphate in Syria. The last thing people of whole mid east, and beyond, need right now is complete chaos and rampage in Syria.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Looks like Russia is beginning to wake up, finally, now that the rebels are taking over:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20710561
I don't expect them to do a flying fuck when it comes to military intervention (USA led bunch or not) and I can't say I'd regret it.
Let them complain. They have been a constant nuisance since the start of this conflict but for the rest they can better shut up, since the whole world doesn't take their old fashioned foreign policy serious anymore.
Back to human rights violations during the Syrian civil war:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20710561
Duh.
Duh. That's what happens when you keep supporting Assad.
Sure.
Fine, get the hell out of there.
Suuuure.
And that's what really matters.
I don't expect them to do a flying fuck when it comes to military intervention (USA led bunch or not) and I can't say I'd regret it.
Let them complain. They have been a constant nuisance since the start of this conflict but for the rest they can better shut up, since the whole world doesn't take their old fashioned foreign policy serious anymore.
Back to human rights violations during the Syrian civil war:
The "vast majority" of human rights violations, including international crimes, documented have been committed by the Syrian armed and security forces and their allied militia.
Deadly Reprisals: deliberate killings and other abuses by Syria's armed forces
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/a...83b-4e67-b386-0df14a79f694/mde240412012en.pdf
A leaked video from one of the detention centers of the Syrian regime in Kafranbel shows the brutal level of violence being used by Syrian forces against alleged detainees.
(WARNING: GRAPHIC) http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/07/04/224459.html
Torture Archipelago : Arbitrary Arrests, Torture and Enforced Disappearances
in Syria’s Underground Prisons since March 2011:
http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/syria0712webwcover.pdf
According to the UN, sexual violence in detention is directed principally against men and boys,[8]:17 rather than women and girls.
Report of the independent international commission of inquiry on the Syrian Arab Republic
http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/SY/A.HRC.S-17.2.Add.1_en.pdf
D. Sexual violence
66. Several testimonies reported the practice of sexual torture used on male detainees. Men were routinely made to undress and remain naked. Several former detainees testified reported beatings of genitals, forced oral sex, electroshocks and cigarette burns to the anus in detention facilities, including those of the Air Force Intelligence in Damascus, the Military Intelligence in Jisr Al Shughour, the Military Intelligence and the Political Security in Idlib and Al Ladhiqiyah and the intelligence detention facilities in Tartus. Several of the detainees were repeatedly threatened that they would be raped in front of their family and that their wives and daughters would also be raped.
Deadly Reprisals: deliberate killings and other abuses by Syria's armed forces
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/a...83b-4e67-b386-0df14a79f694/mde240412012en.pdf
A leaked video from one of the detention centers of the Syrian regime in Kafranbel shows the brutal level of violence being used by Syrian forces against alleged detainees.
(WARNING: GRAPHIC) http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/07/04/224459.html
Torture Archipelago : Arbitrary Arrests, Torture and Enforced Disappearances
in Syria’s Underground Prisons since March 2011:
http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/syria0712webwcover.pdf
According to the UN, sexual violence in detention is directed principally against men and boys,[8]:17 rather than women and girls.
Report of the independent international commission of inquiry on the Syrian Arab Republic
http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/SY/A.HRC.S-17.2.Add.1_en.pdf
D. Sexual violence
66. Several testimonies reported the practice of sexual torture used on male detainees. Men were routinely made to undress and remain naked. Several former detainees testified reported beatings of genitals, forced oral sex, electroshocks and cigarette burns to the anus in detention facilities, including those of the Air Force Intelligence in Damascus, the Military Intelligence in Jisr Al Shughour, the Military Intelligence and the Political Security in Idlib and Al Ladhiqiyah and the intelligence detention facilities in Tartus. Several of the detainees were repeatedly threatened that they would be raped in front of their family and that their wives and daughters would also be raped.
D
Deleted member 7164
Guest
From my sources, that video is "fake" (meaning that those aren't real Syrian army men) and wasn't even shot in Syria. I cannot prove it.
But - http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/happened-syrian-town-aqrab/3426 - every, every single massacre that happened in Syria was done by rebels. This one, every one.
Stop being so narrow minded. I'm not saying that Assad is pure gold. But he's a legit president, they had a referendum with 57% turnout, and ~ 65% of the vote was in favour of reforms proposed by him.
I give you proof of rebels commiting mass murder, you reply with reports of individual cases of army torture. Let's say, for the sake of discussion, they're all true. Boo ho ho, surprise - it's war. In every army, there are pigs and scum that will do this kind of stuff. They are dealt with afterwards, and the way they are dealt with, really shows what kind of government rules the country. Even if Assad decides not to pursue human rights violations issues, there's International Court of Justice, which Syria fully recognizes, unlike United States.
I don't know shit about life under Assad in Syria, and you don't either. However I'm pretty confident that he is the best option currently for them. They're going to be ripped to pieces, their land and resources sold out to foreign corporations, while common man will be dealing with extremists in power. And I don't even need to give you an example.
You tend to automatically side against, I tend to automatically side pro. We aren't getting rid of each other's bias. Which makes this discussion interesting. However, I think that you could use a bit wider perspective. Sure, Syria deserves better than Assad, we all deserve better than our current leaders, but in this situation, it's pivotal for Syrian people that rebels lose this war, and that order is restored to country. They're the ones wrecking havoc, not the legit army. I also don't agree with your aggressive approach to things, for instance on so called "gay parade issue" - we have no disagreements about that, but IMHO it's not wise to force parades without proper education. You live in a far more open society than mine, a lot of people here absorb opinions from nationalist politicians, church, etc. Your idea of forcing parades as a bitchslap against those people could really have a counter effect.
Ok, personal discussion over.
Meanwhile, USN carrier and assault ship left Syrian coast, RFN frigate, two destroyers and a heavy landing craft are on way. Since US hasn't really deployed Eisenhower and Iwo Jima for Syria (they just made a brief stop on route), and since Russia states this deployment is a scheduled Mediterranean presence, I won't draw any conclusions, yet.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=141355176015752 <- short video of Syrian army cheering on streets. Allegedly Aleppo, allegedly today. Video was uploaded couple of hours ago.
But - http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/happened-syrian-town-aqrab/3426 - every, every single massacre that happened in Syria was done by rebels. This one, every one.
Stop being so narrow minded. I'm not saying that Assad is pure gold. But he's a legit president, they had a referendum with 57% turnout, and ~ 65% of the vote was in favour of reforms proposed by him.
I give you proof of rebels commiting mass murder, you reply with reports of individual cases of army torture. Let's say, for the sake of discussion, they're all true. Boo ho ho, surprise - it's war. In every army, there are pigs and scum that will do this kind of stuff. They are dealt with afterwards, and the way they are dealt with, really shows what kind of government rules the country. Even if Assad decides not to pursue human rights violations issues, there's International Court of Justice, which Syria fully recognizes, unlike United States.
I don't know shit about life under Assad in Syria, and you don't either. However I'm pretty confident that he is the best option currently for them. They're going to be ripped to pieces, their land and resources sold out to foreign corporations, while common man will be dealing with extremists in power. And I don't even need to give you an example.
You tend to automatically side against, I tend to automatically side pro. We aren't getting rid of each other's bias. Which makes this discussion interesting. However, I think that you could use a bit wider perspective. Sure, Syria deserves better than Assad, we all deserve better than our current leaders, but in this situation, it's pivotal for Syrian people that rebels lose this war, and that order is restored to country. They're the ones wrecking havoc, not the legit army. I also don't agree with your aggressive approach to things, for instance on so called "gay parade issue" - we have no disagreements about that, but IMHO it's not wise to force parades without proper education. You live in a far more open society than mine, a lot of people here absorb opinions from nationalist politicians, church, etc. Your idea of forcing parades as a bitchslap against those people could really have a counter effect.
Ok, personal discussion over.
Meanwhile, USN carrier and assault ship left Syrian coast, RFN frigate, two destroyers and a heavy landing craft are on way. Since US hasn't really deployed Eisenhower and Iwo Jima for Syria (they just made a brief stop on route), and since Russia states this deployment is a scheduled Mediterranean presence, I won't draw any conclusions, yet.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=141355176015752 <- short video of Syrian army cheering on streets. Allegedly Aleppo, allegedly today. Video was uploaded couple of hours ago.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Is it?
I don't get why you need(ed) to make it personal in the first place.
I hadn't addressed you in any way in my previous post. Even when I said "you", it was aimed at the politician.
D
Deleted member 7164
Guest
I am arguing against opinions that you seem to be spearheading in forum's Middle East discussions.
And frankly, people around me seem to be on the same side. Which doesn't seem to be a good source of new insights and thought provoking stuff.
And frankly, people around me seem to be on the same side. Which doesn't seem to be a good source of new insights and thought provoking stuff.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Indeed.
Sorry man, I don't believe that.
*sigh*
It's what he does that's so appalling (more than what he promises).
There's not an inch on my head going to believe that only the rebels did mass murder.
That's not entirely impossible.
But at least I have no reasons to distrust tons of reports and news items, automatically. Therefore I think I am well enough informed to have a realistic idea of what kind of a government Assad presides. At least I have faith in certain organizations and media. I don't take everything for granted automatically.
I am not denying much of what you say about the rebels. But it sounds like you deny about everything the Assad regime did. I tell you: either you are poorly informed, either you don't believe much.
Not automatically. I am aware that things have happened.
Well, sometimes I have the idea that you're hard to be convinced that governments can do wrong things and can be criticized by other nations. I wonder if you turn on the TV and see all the images and keep saying "not true, not true, not true" or "so what, so what, so what".
I think that you drag too much into this. In short: I disagree with you. That's not the end of the world.
EDIT:
And if he won't be decapitated, Assad will be brought to justice. And I hope for him it's not in his own country. He is most welcome in the International Court of Justice.
D
Deleted member 7164
Guest
Media reports Syrian rebels captured Taftanaz airbase, a "key strategic victory".
Back on planet Earth, SAA moved 60 choppers and working artillery to Shayrat, left 20 cannibalized Mi-8s on stations, redeployed defensive garrison, lured Al-Nursa and al-Sham out of urban environment, and then blew a shit out of them, a bit after their key strategic airbase "capture".
Meanwhile, a fleet of Russian warships are about to engage in a "military exercise" off Syrian coast. RF deputy foreign minister stated that United States should rethink their strategy, and Russian warships are going to be there to remind them of Russia's place in global politics. This is a most direct confrontation since cold war ended. Actually, Syria is not only politically tied to Iran, Iran depends on Syria for shipping gas to Turkey where it's bought by Turkish local currency (since Iran can't sell for euros or dollars), and the money is used right in Turkey to purchase gold, which is shipped back to Iran. A significant part of Iran's under-sanctions strategy depends on this. Both China and Russia accept gold for big transport/arms/industrial purchases, they both have a economic policy that includes gold reserve investments, eg. they want gold. On the other hand, Syria depends on Iran for material aid of any category.
Back on planet Earth, SAA moved 60 choppers and working artillery to Shayrat, left 20 cannibalized Mi-8s on stations, redeployed defensive garrison, lured Al-Nursa and al-Sham out of urban environment, and then blew a shit out of them, a bit after their key strategic airbase "capture".
Meanwhile, a fleet of Russian warships are about to engage in a "military exercise" off Syrian coast. RF deputy foreign minister stated that United States should rethink their strategy, and Russian warships are going to be there to remind them of Russia's place in global politics. This is a most direct confrontation since cold war ended. Actually, Syria is not only politically tied to Iran, Iran depends on Syria for shipping gas to Turkey where it's bought by Turkish local currency (since Iran can't sell for euros or dollars), and the money is used right in Turkey to purchase gold, which is shipped back to Iran. A significant part of Iran's under-sanctions strategy depends on this. Both China and Russia accept gold for big transport/arms/industrial purchases, they both have a economic policy that includes gold reserve investments, eg. they want gold. On the other hand, Syria depends on Iran for material aid of any category.
D
Deleted member 7164
Guest
Al-Nusra attacked university of Aleppo, a number between 2 to 15 (depending on the source) were killed, along with dozens of injured. They've blackmailed students, now they've fulfilled their promise. In last week's FSA broadcast, Al-Nursa member threatened that if students won't go into a student-strike against government, they too would become a target.
Fortunately there are some good news also, SAA reclaimed Taftanaz airbase just a day after the counterstrike. And liberated Daraya, just as it has been planned, as many of FSA were smashed in Taftanaz bombing.
There's been some news about Assad fleeing to Russian warships with his family, but it's just a common bunch of lies.
Fortunately there are some good news also, SAA reclaimed Taftanaz airbase just a day after the counterstrike. And liberated Daraya, just as it has been planned, as many of FSA were smashed in Taftanaz bombing.
There's been some news about Assad fleeing to Russian warships with his family, but it's just a common bunch of lies.
SixesAlltheway
Ancient Mariner
Some new, first person view of the Syrian rebels fighting T-72 tank divisions in the ruins of Daraya, filmed by the rebels. Very good footage in HD, some really high intensity moments further on in the video as they attempt to ambush the tanks.
Embedded media from this media site is no longer available
bearfan
Ancient Mariner
Sen Graham seemed to confirm this as well
CNN reports:
CNN reports:
The United States believes Israel has conducted an airstrike into Syria, two U.S. officials tell CNN.
U.S. and Western intelligence agencies are reviewing classified data showing Israel most likely conducted a strike in the Thursday-Friday time frame, according to both officials. This is the same time frame that the U.S. collected additional data showing Israel was flying a high number of warplanes over Lebanon.
One official said the United States had limited information so far and could not yet confirm those are the specific warplanes that conducted a strike. Based on initial indications, the U.S. does not believe Israeli warplanes entered Syrian airspace to conduct the strikes.
Both officials said there is no reason to believe Israel struck at a chemical weapons storage facilities. The Israelis have long said they would strike at any targets that prove to be the transfer of any kinds of weapons to Hezbollah or other terrorist groups, as well as at any effort to smuggle Syrian weapons into Lebanon that could threaten Israel.
The Lebanese army website listed 16 flights by Israeli warplanes penetrating Lebanon’s airspace from Thursday evening through Friday afternoon local time
U.S. and Western intelligence agencies are reviewing classified data showing Israel most likely conducted a strike in the Thursday-Friday time frame, according to both officials. This is the same time frame that the U.S. collected additional data showing Israel was flying a high number of warplanes over Lebanon.
One official said the United States had limited information so far and could not yet confirm those are the specific warplanes that conducted a strike. Based on initial indications, the U.S. does not believe Israeli warplanes entered Syrian airspace to conduct the strikes.
Both officials said there is no reason to believe Israel struck at a chemical weapons storage facilities. The Israelis have long said they would strike at any targets that prove to be the transfer of any kinds of weapons to Hezbollah or other terrorist groups, as well as at any effort to smuggle Syrian weapons into Lebanon that could threaten Israel.
The Lebanese army website listed 16 flights by Israeli warplanes penetrating Lebanon’s airspace from Thursday evening through Friday afternoon local time
TheSeventhSonRoberto
Rockin in Rio
I feel sorry for a lot of the innocent people in Syria. I may not be Syrian &have no Syrian friends but as a human being it hurts to see people suffer like that. (A lot of the suffering not being done by Assad but by far worst people/groups)