Syria

World Nut Daily isn't a news source - it's full of lies and misinformation. Please do not treat it as a news source.
How is this any different than me playing on Obama's name and pointing out that his administration is full of lies and misinformation?

You may notice I gave him a big boy O this time, not out of respect for him, but out of respect for the forum.

Mosh, did Carter's naiveté and weakness in dealing with Iran and the Soviet Union transfer to Reagan?
Then why do you think Obama's will transfer to the next president?
Perhaps the "Vacancy" sign will finally come off the Oval Office with the next president, and the world will resume taking the US seriously.

BTW, didn't mean to imply that you said it has nothing to do with Obama. My point is that it only has to do with Obama. Assad is such a bit player that it doesn't matter what he does, except to the extent to what the US does in response. We're giving the guy way too big a stage to strut upon.

LooseCannon - you say someone used chemical weapons in Syria, but you admit that you don't know who.
Obama wants to literally shoot first and ask questions later. Is this what you are advocating?

Germany is now saying they have proof that Assad did not order the attack.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/08/syria-chemical-weapons-not-assad-bild

Still sure we should go in?
People were ready to launch an attack based on lies, it seems.
Looks like the US government may be lying about the reason for attack again. Big surprise.
If they'd lie about the evidence, then they'd lie about their true intentions and the scope too.

Remember, the US involvement in the Vietnam war began with just a few "advisers" but was soon escalated by Johnson to a "police action" with a false flag operation in the Gulf of Tonkin, even as he was pledging not to commit Americans to fight Vietnam's civil war.

It ended 14 years later with 58,000 dead Americans and a final humiliating rooftop retreat by helicopter - and American servicemen being spat on when they returned home, which John Kerry had a lot to do with. (John Kerry's favorite Iron Maiden song: 'Genghis Khan')
 
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Eh, do you guys perhaps want to respond to some of the decent points King Of Twilight has made, instead (merited or otherwise) of criticising his Obama bashing; he's made some fairly valid points, as annoying as "obama" is. Also, did Saddam not use chemical weapons on the Kurds, prior to the war? I thought, LooseCannon, it was widely accepted that he did. Is this a fabrication? Lastly, the comparisons to Iraq are startingly relevant: debated, scanty evidence; no UN agreement; "it'll be limited" (but people suspect the US will be drawn in); dictator they'd prefer to see the back of; etc etc... how is this not similar?
 
What good is an "unbelievably small" attack on Syria going to do?
Why not just shoot some peas at them and claim victory, at this point?
That would be an unbelievably small response, from an unbelievably small president.

If you were hoping they were going to do anything to make a difference in Syria, it looks you're in for disappointment (unless this is just a trick to get a foot in the door for a wider war.)

Guess you could say everything coming out of Kerry's mouth is unbelievable.
 
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How is this any different than me playing on Obama's name and pointing out that his administration is full of lies and misinformation?

Because I can document constantly that the source is biased and vicious. I don't care if someone dislikes a particular political figure - that's fine, and well, and dandy - but I do care that someone uses poor sources to do it. There's plenty of reasons to dislike Obama, and plenty of great sources for it without going to a website that lies and cheats blatantly.

You may notice I gave him a big boy O this time, not out of respect for him, but out of respect for the forum.

Thank you.

Mosh, did Carter's naiveté and weakness in dealing with Iran and the Soviet Union transfer to Reagan?
Then why do you think Obama's will transfer to the next president?
Reagan wasn't a particularly well-liked president outside of the USA. We have Reagan-blinders on us. The USSR came to him not because they thought he was the guy, but because the USSR was about collapse and he was the man they had to speak with. His foreign policy was tough...but he was also the cause of a lot of damage to the US reputation. I guess my point is - Reagan got lucky, and really shouldn't be an example for how to do things as a president (and if you ask me, the biggest problem with the GOP is their obsession with Reagan, but that's neither here nor there).

LooseCannon - you say someone used chemical weapons in Syria, but you admit that you don't know who.
Obama wants to literally shoot first and ask questions later. Is this what you are advocating?
No. I'm advocating that we destroy every bit of gas in the country. Every single bit. We know the rebels probably have some - blow that up. We know the government has some - blow that up. If anyone gets more? Blow it up. Fuck both of them. They aren't allowed to play with gas. This isn't what Obama is advocating. I think doing something is better than nothing, but his idea isn't a whole lot better than nothing.

Germany is now saying they have proof that Assad did not order the attack.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/08/syria-chemical-weapons-not-assad-bild
That article does not say that Germany states Assad didn't order the attack. That article states that the German newspaper Bild am Sonntag claims to have sources in German intelligence that claim that Assad didn't order the attack. Bild am Sonntag is the equivalent of the New York Post or The Sun in the UK - it's not quite a tabloid, but not anything but a tabloid. I place more emphasis on the Russian report because at the very least it had details (whether or not they were invented, who knows?)

Remember, the US involvement in the Vietnam war began with just a few "advisers" but was soon escalated by Johnson to a "police action" with a false flag operation in the Gulf of Tonkin, even as he was pledging not to commit Americans to fight Vietnam's civil war.

It ended 14 years later with 58,000 dead Americans and a final humiliating rooftop retreat by helicopter - and American servicemen being spat on when they returned home, which John Kerry had a lot to do with. (John Kerry's favorite Iron Maiden song: 'Genghis Khan')

John Kerry never said for people to spit on American soldiers. He reported on the atrocities that were actually committed by US soldiers. That makes him a hero, because he pointed out that the Americans could be just as bad as the other side. This is an important lesson, and maybe that Americans freaked out over it points less to what John Kerry said and more to their inability to disconnect the actions of a few with the actions of most. Would you rather people like Kerry have stayed silent over US war crimes?

Look, I appreciate that nobody wants to go to Syria. I don't want to send a single NATO soldier there. I don't want to send advisers, I don't want to send infantry. I want to hit the place with a few cruise missiles and call it a day. I don't think Obama has the desire to order soldiers into the country, and I don't think he would. I just think that if anyone uses chemical weapons they should be punished, and in this case since they're fighting over who it was, let's just punish them both by destroying both sides stockpiles of gas.

Everyone compares this to Iraq. We might be lied to, there's no UN agreement, etc. I just hope it doesn't end up compared to Rwanda - a situation where NATO should have acted but the cowardice of the US president caused them not to act. No matter who used the gas if they get away with it...what's to stop them from doing it again, and again? This gas strike was tiny. It was small, it used a fraction of a percent of the gas in Syria. How much more will get deployed? Maybe none. Maybe all of it.

Can I ask an honest question? If we had proof (say a video, or maybe a turncoat colonel who was there, or perhaps witnesses or something)...would you, KoT, agree to a strike to remove the gas reserves of whichever side actually did this? Do you believe there is a humanitarian argument to this at all?
 
That article does not say that Germany states Assad didn't order the attack. That article states that the German newspaper Bild am Sonntag claims to have sources in German intelligence that claim that Assad didn't order the attack. Bild am Sonntag is the equivalent of the New York Post or The Sun in the UK - it's not quite a tabloid, but not anything but a tabloid.

It is a tabloid, and a particularly bad one at that. I would even double-check the date it reports.
 
Reagan wasn't a particularly well-liked president outside of the USA

To a degree, I would ask who cares. The blinders on him go both ways, he did create a shift in policy towards the USSR that was what needed to happen and from the "Evil Empire" speech on, hit exactly the right tone with them. It is laughable looking back at some 1980s music videos and speeches by people calling him a war mongerer and that he would start WWIII and start nuking everyone

back to Syria and Obama

It is rather unclear what his policy is and exactly what he wants to accomplish here .. perhaps he will clarify it when he speaks
 
back to Syria and Obama

It is rather unclear what his policy is and exactly what he wants to accomplish here .. perhaps he will clarify it when he speaks

Why doesn't copying at current time ever work from YouTube..anyways. This video at 10:36:


Make an example out of Syria and Assad to keep other more dangerous countries in check....Sounds more like a preemptive attack to establish some power.
 
Reagan wasn't a particularly well-liked president outside of the USA. We have Reagan-blinders on us. The USSR came to him not because they thought he was the guy, but because the USSR was about collapse and he was the man they had to speak with. His foreign policy was tough...but he was also the cause of a lot of damage to the US reputation. I guess my point is - Reagan got lucky, and really shouldn't be an example for how to do things as a president (and if you ask me, the biggest problem with the GOP is their obsession with Reagan, but that's neither here nor there).
Not to go off on too much of a tangent here, so I will try to keep it relevant to comparisons to today -
It doesn't matter if Reagan was "well-liked" outside of the US. He was respected by our allies, and feared by our enemies. Which is what a president should be. Obama is neither, and no one can honestly claim otherwise at this point.

I do not believe Reagan got lucky. I believe he made his own luck. His theory was the USSR was a husk, Communism made them weak, the power they projected was an illusion, and they would not be able to keep up in the arms race. He psyched them out with SDI, and they bought it. They ended up bankrupting themselves in the process. His theory was right. Of course he didn't bring them down on his own. He had help from Lech Walesa, the Pope, and Iron Maiden.

I don't think what Reagan did with the USSR is a model of what to do in every conflict. It was unique to the situation. There simply is no modern parallel to the Soviet Union and the Cold War. So perhaps it is a model in a way - that the response to each situation should be uniquely tailored to it. Again Obama fails here. He is just copying what Bush did in Iraq. Syria is pretty small ball compared to the USSR, and yet he can't even get that right. I shudder to think what kind of mess Obama would be creating if the Cold War was still on.

The GOP has a lot of problems, but I would rank their biggest problem to be that the GOP leadership is institutionally incapable of seizing an easy political advantage by simply coming out against NSA spying, targeting Americans with drones, or starting a war in Syria.


No. I'm advocating that we destroy every bit of gas in the country. Every single bit. We know the rebels probably have some - blow that up. We know the government has some - blow that up. If anyone gets more? Blow it up. Fuck both of them. They aren't allowed to play with gas. This isn't what Obama is advocating. I think doing something is better than nothing, but his idea isn't a whole lot better than nothing.
I hope you recognize that what you advocate cannot realistically be done without boots on the ground, and complete US control in country.


That article does not say that Germany states Assad didn't order the attack. That article states that the German newspaper Bild am Sonntag claims to have sources in German intelligence that claim that Assad didn't order the attack. Bild am Sonntag is the equivalent of the New York Post or The Sun in the UK - it's not quite a tabloid, but not anything but a tabloid. I place more emphasis on the Russian report because at the very least it had details (whether or not they were invented, who knows?)
If German intel has concluded that, I would place more faith in it than the Russian report. Bild am Sonntag is making some pretty specific claims, so they would have to be completely fabricating it from wholecloth were it false, which I highly doubt.



John Kerry never said for people to spit on American soldiers. He reported on the atrocities that were actually committed by US soldiers. That makes him a hero, because he pointed out that the Americans could be just as bad as the other side. This is an important lesson, and maybe that Americans freaked out over it points less to what John Kerry said and more to their inability to disconnect the actions of a few with the actions of most. Would you rather people like Kerry have stayed silent over US war crimes?
Edward Snowden is a hero. John Kerry is anything but. He amplified dubious stories from radicals, many of whom who were frauds that had never set foot in Vietnam. Kerry didn't have to explicitly direct people to mistreat Vietnam vets. He, more than any other person, painted the false picture of Vietnam vets as baby-killing war criminals. People who did not ask to be sent to fight a war in Vietnam. People who were just kids. People who were already suffering from post-traumatic stress (or "shellshock" as it was known back then.) People who already felt isolated and cutoff from their families and their country. And they came back to horrible abuse, accusations, being treated like they were subhuman by complete strangers. John Kerry did that. He is no fucking hero. He is complete and total piece of shit whose grave will be spat upon every day should Arlington be sullied by his bones.

Can I ask an honest question? If we had proof (say a video, or maybe a turncoat colonel who was there, or perhaps witnesses or something)...would you, KoT, agree to a strike to remove the gas reserves of whichever side actually did this? Do you believe there is a humanitarian argument to this at all?
A video? Like the one that we were told caused the attack in Benghazi?
I think it is a human tragedy what is happening there. But I also believe there are no good sides in this war.
The only way to end it is for one side or the other to lose decisively.
That means regime change. But who will fill the vacuum?
There are no good sides in this war, and we cannot afford yet another Muslim Brotherhood.
That is what I fear we will get if Obama meddles once again.
 
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so they would have to be completely fabricating it from wholecloth were it false, which I highly doubt.

You would not be in doubt if you were familiar with German media. This paper is notorious for fabricating stories from wholecloth.
 
Can I ask an honest question? If we had proof (say a video, or maybe a turncoat colonel who was there, or perhaps witnesses or something)...would you, KoT, agree to a strike to remove the gas reserves of whichever side actually did this? Do you believe there is a humanitarian argument to this at all?
This is making the massive assumption that this kind of action (a "strike to remove gas reserves") is even now possible.

Also, a bit less of the acronyms guys. GOP? We don't all live in America.
 
If the goal is to send a message to Assad that Chemical Weapons are a no go, they could and should have done something quickly ... like bomb a know Assad residence/a known military HQ, etc right away and that might have sent a quick message and possibly had some effect on their future use.

This is my problem with Obama on this, a plan should have been in place once the Red Line was declared. The longer this drags out, the worse we look.

GOP=Grand Old Party=Republicans
 
I agree that there should have been a plan in place. And perhaps to seek congressional authorization earlier. Like...when Obama made the Red Line declaration.
 
GOP=Grand Old Party=Republicans
Yip, I know that.

Totally agree with you both: all the plans should have been put in place ages ago. It all just looks so disorganised; and, to be frank, too late to be effective (--if you're someone that supports the principle of military intervention.)
 
He should have skipped Congress and just did it if they think Assad is using these weapons ... he would be well within the law. I think Obama has a problem of throwing out off the cuff remarks and ends up with little follow or thought of what to do.
 
This was not an offer the administration wanted to make. Yet another unscripted moment has boxed this administrator in.
Kerry and the State Department, through an official statement, both tried to immediately undo the "offer" saying it was rhetorical only.
But Putin outclassed Obama again, and took advantage of it.

Of course Obama has to accept it, or he really looks like an unreasonable war-mongerer itching for a fight.

But here's what this does -
First the obvious - it makes Putin look like the hero saving the day, which is his favorite part to play. All he's missing is another photo op without his shirt.
It further increases Putin's influence and diminishes Obama's.

But there is more to it than that -
It has killed Obama's "clever" plan of pushing responsibility of a Syria strike off on Congress, because now voting on a strike is tabled.
Let me repeat - there will now be no Syria vote in Congress.
That means no cover for Obama. He's on his own again.

It buys Assad time. Does anyone think he will actually hand over everything? Or even anything?
Iran, North Korea, Syria, Iraq... they all play these endless stalling games - with Russia's help. (Well, it eventually ran out for Iraq.)

Putin's offer and the reaction of the administration exposes Obama's hidden agenda.
Clearly he wanted a strike. He wanted political cover from Congress for sure, but we can see now that anyone saying he was hoping to be bailed out by a NO vote was wrong. Otherwise his administration wouldn't have tried to walk back Kerry's gaffe so forcefully.

We also saw how the administration started throwing anything at the wall to see what would stick as their case for war began to crumble over the past few days. Suddenly it wasn't about Syria anymore as much as it was about sending a message to Iran, and North Korea even! Possibly Papua New Guinea and Puerto Rico, too... wait what's that? Puerto Rico is ours? When did we get a 58th state? Oh well, scratch that one then...

So it seems that Obama really did want a strike to destabilize Assad so the (Al Qaeda affiliated) rebels could seize control. Libya all over again. But Putin stopped Obama dead in his tracks. Checkmate. Assad's fight against the rebels - and his momentum on the battlefield - will continue unabated now, and Obama is back on the sidelines as a mere observer.
 
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Suddenly it wasn't about Syria anymore as much as it was about sending a message to Iran, and North Korea even!
This is what I've been saying but you've ignored it in every one of my posts. Every single one. I don't get why that's so hard to understand. Well, actually I do. It has nothing to do with Obama so it's obviously not true, since the Syria thing only affects him. ::)
 
King Of Twilight, as entertaining as all your Obama bashing is, the central discussion of this thread is surely Syria, not Obama's general foreign policy. There is a thread for US/Obama talk: the US politics thread. Your post (& discussion around policy generally) makes you (& many others) come across as unconcerned about the Syrian crisis generally, not to mention the humanitarian crisis specifically i.e. civilians dying. Who gives a monkey's about all the grimy politics? I appreciate they're interesting (& sometimes quite important) --but are they really that important? De-escalation seems like a good thing. If this averts a unilateral US strike, then I think it should be welcomed.
 
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