Russia invades Ukraine
- Thread starter Perun
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Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
No one "backed out of the discussion". People are simply not willing to waste their time on a pro-Russia troll regurgitating the same old talking points that we've heard a million times already, ranting about "agendas".
We already have resident posters who keep us up to date on the latest Russian propaganda. I don't see the point in wasting my time on another sealion. Also, I think many of the regulars here would appreciate it if I didn't get involved in another endless discussion with someone who's diametrically opposed to me politically.
But sure, if it helps you sleep at night: yeah, I toootally backed out of the discussion, buddy. I'm sooo scared lol
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paedubucher
Trooper
Here you go again: No arguments made, just "muh Russian propaganda", and "we heard that argument". And how do you know that I'm diametrically opposed to you politically? What is my stance? I entered the discussion by asking what Zelensky wants. He ruled out negotiations by decree, and then complained that he's left out of the discussion. I'm certainly not joining in the "orange man bad" chants, but how does my question indicate a political stance?
Trump wants to end this theater, of which this attire clearly is a part, and get down to business. King Charles wants to continue it.
It's quite telling that Russia is negotiating with the US, and Ukraine is not required at the table. Russia and the US know that they're the ones that call the shots, not Zelensky as a politician or Ukraine as a political entity.
Azas
Aliens Activity Area
Zelensky said not long ago that he is ready to meet and to negotiate with putin (despite decree). So in that aspect you are clearly lying or simply aligning with russian side. You can spin it any way you want it but it can be seen that your opinion favors invader, not invaded.
Trump wants a clear win to show for his voters. An immediate ceasefire, despite Zelensky's concerns regarding guarantees etc.
And Trump is acting professional and neutral. Yeah, right:
Now I see reports that Trump, behind closed doors, already wants to restore Nordstream 2. How cool is that? All the moves to bring russia back from it's knees. All the pretty moves in favor of putin. Yeah, it's only a business.
Look what Peskov (putin's spokeperson) said:
Do you understand how pathetic and how monstrous this is? Do you have even a slightest clue? USA is rapidly becoming russia's companion. Partner of a murderous regime.
Trump wants a clear win to show for his voters. An immediate ceasefire, despite Zelensky's concerns regarding guarantees etc.
And Trump is acting professional and neutral. Yeah, right:
Now I see reports that Trump, behind closed doors, already wants to restore Nordstream 2. How cool is that? All the moves to bring russia back from it's knees. All the pretty moves in favor of putin. Yeah, it's only a business.
Look what Peskov (putin's spokeperson) said:
Do you understand how pathetic and how monstrous this is? Do you have even a slightest clue? USA is rapidly becoming russia's companion. Partner of a murderous regime.
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____no5
Free Man
I heard that but thought it was an odd statement. Why not just annulling the decree then and show good faith? And how would be the negotiations legitimate if they are unlawful? I believe actions, not words.
Azas
Aliens Activity Area
paedubucher
Trooper
That's exactly the point. It's all fake outrage about the meeting. Zelenksy as a politician and Ukraine as a political entity had plenty of time to negotiate. Now Trump takes the reins, because otherwise the war would just drag on for much longer.
What exactly do you mean by "my opinion" and how should it favor any of the two sides? I wondered what Zelensky is complaining about after having blown all of his chances.
Oh the horror, peace in Europe, and energy trade between Russia and Germany! Exactly as we had it before 2014. What's wrong about this vision?
paedubucher
Trooper
You can't formulate a cohesive sentence. What do you mean exactly?Everyone said, looking at what does putin.
Man.... I can't, i just can't...
Azas
Aliens Activity Area
I mean that you two are lost cause.
paedubucher
Trooper
Can you back that up with some factual information? How are we a lost cause?
Dr. Eddies Wingman
Brighter than thousand_suns
A "peace" dictated by Moscow, that could be broken by them at any time under the assumption that the gas trade gives them the leverage they need to keep Germany outside the conflict? Pretty much like what happened 3 years ago?
Do you think Germany's efforts to reduce their dependency if Russian gas are for fun? No, it is because they do not trust Russia.
Your vision is flawed because it requires that Russia is a normal country. The war in Ukraine is conclusive proof that they're not
Azas
Aliens Activity Area
For example this:
Like I said, totally and completely lost cause. Having no clue how russia operates, etc. You only see the business component in this (or pretending to see). But in reality, russia again would swim in tons of free money. And this is bad, because those money would be converted in military might and russia would attack again. Because this country still fosters imperial ambitions. Fact.
So you are either uneducated, or ignorant who thinks that business will solve all problems, or pro russian.
edit: oh, I see @Dr. Eddies Wingman highlighted the same sentence of yours. It means we can see how flawed vision of yours is. How it ignores the very nature of russia.
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paedubucher
Trooper
Russia already swims in tons of money, because they conduct trade with the rest of the non-NATO-aligned world, i.e. the growing group of BRICS states. Russia's economy overtook Germany's and is now the fifth largest in the world.
And how are the alleged "imperial ambitions" a fact? Russia is conducting war mostly in the Donbas region, where a substantial part of the people consider themselves being Russians. There's no war in Poland, not in the Baltics, and not in Eastern Germany.
What is the alternative to a peace deal? Russia now has the upper hand and is in a better position than Ukraine. And the US has to account for that.
Why shouldn't Germany trust Russia? Russia removed all of its troops from the DDR and allowed Germany to re-unite. It has been a reliable trade partner to Germany ever since. Mind you, German tanks are now being used in the Kursk region. Not Russian tanks in Germany. The question is rather: Why should Russia trust Germany?
How do you define a "normal" country? One being aligned to NATO?
Dr. Eddies Wingman
Brighter than thousand_suns
A fucking lie and you know it. They send missiles against all major Ukrainian cities. In 2022 they launched an offensive towards the capital of Ukraine. During those first weeks of the invasion they provided plenty of different reasons why they had to do this. Everything from "NATO is surrounding us" to "Ukraine is led by nazis".
A normal country? Well, how about one where the population had a chance to get a new government if the one they currently have seems willing to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of their men in an invasion against a neighbouring country? Instead of risking prison just for saying the "special military operation" is a war and that it should stop?
Enough. I should not take the rage bait, I know it.
Azas
Aliens Activity Area
So give 'em even more? That is pretty strong argument, sir.
War of Chechnya? War of Georgia? Syria? Belarus? (de facto russia's lap dog) 2014 Crimea? 2022 Ukraine's invasion? Hello?!
I literally explained you, why renewal of trade relations with russia is bad, criminal and very dangerous, but you are ignoring it all. In a way, you engage in a conversation very similarly like @____no5 does. Propaganda machine.
srfc
Ancient Mariner
They're now running a protection racket in cahoots with Putin
paedubucher
Trooper
Ground operations are mostly taking part in the Donbas region. I do not deny any use of missiles. Russia pulled out of the Kiev region in order to enable the Istanbul peace deal that ultimately failed.
The population in Russia is quite happy with their government. I wonder if the people in Ukraine would re-elect Zelensky if they would hold their overdue elections. Talking about sacrifices: It's the Ukrainians who send their people into the Kursk meat grinder since last summer just to gain a little negotiation leverage. They don't stand a chance there.
Chechnya has been part of Russia for hundreds of years. Talking about Georgia: Do your research. NATO gave Sakashvili some phony guarantees, after which the Georgian side started the war (Source: fact finding mission lead by Heidi Tagliavini; media report). In Syria, Russia was conducting war against a terror organization (ISIS). And what about Belarus? It's a country aligned with Russia. So what?
So trade is bad, because it would give Russia money, with which they then would attack... their trade partners? It's ridiculous.
People make accusations of trolling because posting strongly in support of garbled and highly changeable policy can only be playing devil's advocate for the sake of it, or an actual agenda.
There's little logic and coherence in Trump's statements. He doesn't appear to have carefully formulated policies other than one of winning some sort of social media ratings war. Backing everything he does looks much like fanatical worship, an axe to grind, or a vested interest in something.
Giving legitimacy to Putin's invasion is a very strange line for anyone to take, outside of Putin and his inner circle itself.
There's little logic and coherence in Trump's statements. He doesn't appear to have carefully formulated policies other than one of winning some sort of social media ratings war. Backing everything he does looks much like fanatical worship, an axe to grind, or a vested interest in something.
Giving legitimacy to Putin's invasion is a very strange line for anyone to take, outside of Putin and his inner circle itself.
paedubucher
Trooper
Just to make sure that we argue from the same ground: Trump intends to negotiate a peace deal with Russia without the participation of Ukraine. He is criticized for that both by Zelensky, who feels left out, by the media, and by a majority of the users taking part in this discussion here.
I argue that this is the best way forward, because the US is calling the shots, and not Ukraine. Considering the power balance in the region(!), Russia and NATO are on a par with one another, and the US can give Russia guarantees that Ukraine will do what the US demands to support the peace deal.
Russia will have more benefits from abiding by the peace deal than from continuing a war (or starting another war, for that matter), and so will Ukraine. The US no longer has to finance a war in Ukraine it cannot win. So in my opinion, a peace deal under Trump would be a win-win-win situation.
Yes: Russia wins more than Ukraine, but it has the upper hand on the battlefield, and it would only be downhill for Ukraine from here. The sooner the peace deal is made, the better for Ukraine.
Now please argue where I'm wrong without arguments ad hominem (i.e. calling me a "Putin troll", "uneducated", or a "hopeless case").